Gash

Gash

Well Known Member
Just curious to find out peoples' preference for the FISK VFR arrival to Oshkosh in their RVs. Do you like coming in on the low arrival route at 1,800' and 90 kts, or do you prefer the high route at 2,300' and 135 kts?
 
We do have this conversation each year don't we. I have the usual notam right here in front of me. Also, as usual, it is very clear that it doesn't matter what MY "preference" is. It says: Do THIS, "if unable", do THAT.
Now, if we decide to ignore the details fo the notam, that is indeed your choice.
 
Uh, thanks for that. I have the NOTAM in front of me too.

I'm not trying to upset anybody's sensibilities with the question. The reason I ask is that last time I got stuck behind a Pietenpol who couldn't do 90 kts, and it got uncomfortable. Of course I wasn't going to stall and fall out of the sky, but that was the day I started wondering about the 135 kt route up there--who actually uses it?

My "preference" is flight safety. Yes, I can drop a little bit of flaps and hang on the blades all the way to OSH, and I'm not opposed to breaking out and going back to the end of the line if needed. But I do wonder about the guy behind me, and behind him, etc. Just curious to know when it's appropriate to call uncle and just fly up there at 2,300 and 135 kts where the RV is happier.
 
Sorry, just sayin' what needs to be said. Standard MK-I pilot here. My preference is by the book. I can however think of more than half a dozen friends that I can assure you will be in the high route. They are still my friends. To each his own, until they ask my opinion or preference. Find us in HBP and I'll be more than happy to share my beer and swap stories.
 
Remember the high guys have to blend in with everyone else when landing.
Seems to me this would make more work for the controllers and overall be less safe.

I'm with Card on this one.

Mark
 
Only been there 2 times, but both times I flew the low/slow, but to be fair...It isn't very busy on Friday before the show.

But I did practice slow flight each year. This year I flew for almost an hour at 70-75 kts. I had 15* of flap and jockeyed the power to hold position for the photo shoot a few weeks ago. Too bad I'm going to Osh this year. :(

Aurora slideshow

B
 
By the book

If able, 90 KIAS low approach.

IF any RV pilot cannot fly 90 KIAS on the low approach, they should not be flying an RV. Time to take it home and put it up for sale.
 
RV's low route

Maybe Jeff Point will chime in but I have personally heard the controllers put an RV in a hold to reposition from the high route to the low route. The high route is for planes who cannot slow to 90. Not for those who can fly 90 AND go faster.

Fly the low route at the proper airspeed and knots. My first time in I was behind and Aeronca. I slowed to 80 kts. It is only for a few minutes. Worked out fine.

Go out and practice slow flight at 90 kts and 80 its. Do it for 20 minutes or so for each. Push yourself to perfection in airspeed and altitude. If you cannot do it within reasonable margins, consistently, you probably aren't ready for the fur ball that is Oshkosh.

Two years ago I saw a guy pass another. Also heard a guy on the radio call in like he was just going in any other time. He said, "is there something going on in Oshkosh?" The ATC guy told him to reverse course and leave the area and get the Notam. Pretty confident he got a nice letter from the Gubment.

I'm a newbie in the scheme of Oshkosh. I've only flown in 7 times. Jeff has lots of stories. I'm sure others do to. It is serious business and where mistakes can be fatal and lack of proficiency is dangerous.

Practice up and lets have fun!!!
 
Cutting in line

I feel like the high and fast RV's are just cutting to the front of the line. I've had to extend my downwind over the lake due to the the added traffic dropping in from the high route and not following the correct downwind pattern (Rwy 27, stay south of gravel pit). Also if someone can't fly thier RV at 80 kts how do they land? My pattern is 80 kts on downwind and base, 70 kts on final. 80 kts is 1.5x stall and is perfectly safe and I do it every time I fly:).

I wish everyone a safe flight to OSH. See you there.
 
It's that time of year again!

This is as good a time as any to dust off this old thread on flying into Oshkosh.

http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=8960

Not to pick on the OP, because this issue comes up every year, and for every person who posts a question, hundreds more are wondering the same thing. I recommend you start post #1 in the above thread, which is an excellent article written by Rick Durden after Oshkosh 2001. It was inspired by a fatal accident involving a Glasair on the Ripon/ Fisk arrival in 2001, and is very relevant to this question.

Gary hit it on the head. Every RV design can fly just fine at 90kts. If you are not up to the task, then you owe it to yourself and the rest of us to either get some additional training until you are proficient, or stay away from Oshkosh. This is a huge safety issue, and not the time to be nice or politically correct.

Some of you will, after careful consideration, still decide to try to sneak in on the high/ fast approach. You might get away with it, but consider this. I've heard many times in the past where controllers have ordered planes (like RVs) to depart the high approach and fly the low pattern. So you need to be prepared to do so, even if it is not your plan.

My first year flying my RV to Oshkosh (2004) I was behind a T-craft, with a Glasair behind me, so I can sympathize. The NOTAM is very clear about what to do when this happens, which is to break out of the pattern and re-enter at the beginning, and you need to be mentally prepared to do so. I highly recommend that you plan your flight to make a last fuel stop somewhere around 30 minutes from Oshkosh. There are plenty of airports in southern Wisconsin that fit the bill, and you are much better off to hit Ripon with full tanks and empty bladders, just in case you need to go around, hold at Rush Lake or taxi for 45 minutes after landing (sometimes all 3 in the same flight.)
 
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Jeff said:
Not to pick on the OP, because this issue comes up every year, and for every person who posts a question, hundreds more are wondering the same thing.
Click to expand...

Thank you Jeff. I should do a better job of searching for previous similar topics.

My original question in the OP was focused on the procedural decision, not on the merits of or ability to fly slowly. Nowhere in my first two posts did I imply that a) I want to break a rule, or b) I am unable to do slow flight. Just the opposite in fact, and I'm sorry everybody if that wasn't clear. Nevertheless there is some dog piling on the slow flight topic here. Yes, as safe pilots we should all be willing to listen to other people's ideas about flying, but it's funny when a thread on a procedural question drifts to the dramatic (ie: taking your airplane home and putting it up for sale). I really just wanted to know who uses that high/fast route. Every other time I've flown into Oshkosh, it's been in a slow spam can. It's not until this year--first time in the new RV-8--that my little brain even considered the possibility of coming in any other way. That's why I asked the question. There are some good posts here that explain the procedural reason for avoiding the high/fast route. It is clear here that it garbages up the pattern when the controllers have to fit everybody back in to the same piece of sky. That answers the question.
 
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I've flown into OSH a handful of times using the RIPON approach. The low approach is IMHO far and away the most dangerous.

The biggest problem is that probably 1/3 of pilots and equipment are unable to comply with the NOTAM. There are a lot of aircraft coming to the show that struggle to maintain 90 knots (think J3 cubs). A single cub dragging in from RIPON will attract a conga line of faster aircraft piling up behind, all struggling to slow down to 75 knots. Many will start to S-turn which is particularly dangerous, especially in high-wing aircraft.

The first time I flew in I was in a Navion, following a Cessna 185, which in turn was following a Cub. The Cub was going maybe 75 knots, and the 185 started to S-turn. I slowed under 70 knots, but the Cessna was turning into me and couldn't see me through his wing. I descended and he went directly over me, with less than 100' of separation. I couldn't break out of the line without losing sight of him under my wing. Eventually we got spread out enough and everybody landed OK, but I have no idea what might have been following me. A lot of aircraft aren't comfortable or safe at those very slow speeds.

I have flown the high pattern in a Twin Cessna and the RV-8 with no problems at all. It seems that people have an easier time with the higher speed.

I've also flown the ultralight arrival at 60 knots or so in an AirCam, and that was no problem.

Most of the time these days I land at KFLD and take the bus.
 
James, your story is a perfect example of what happens when people do not follow the procedure and start making up their own rules. The C-185 should not have been S turning, he should have broken out and re-entered the pattern. The ripple effect of one pilot doing something that they should not can have serious consequences far down the arrival stream.

Carl- not to dogpile on you at all, but you ripped the scab off an old wound here, so to speak. Kind of like when a new builder asks about what primer to use, or inquires about the wisdom of using grade 8 bolts for wing attach, the answers that are given are often not the ones being sought, and for good and sound historical reasons. We've been down these roads before.
 
...My original question in the OP was focused on the procedural decision, not on the merits of or ability to fly slowly...
Click to expand...

There is normally plenty of editorial licence taken with rules, regs, guidelines, etc on this forum, but this is one of those that is pretty clear- if you are able to fly at 90, that's what you are expected to do. Yes, compliance is voluntary for the most part, but there really is no "procedural decision" to be made here. You either follow the NOTAM, or you don't. I suppose if you were flying a modified airplane with a radical low drag cooling system that needs 150+ knots just to cool, then the high and fast is perfectly justified. But that rules out 99.99% of the flying RVs.

All that said, I've been into Osh with the RV once and would much rather be at 135, but had no problem with 90. I might change my mind if I get stuck behind a 75 MPH Cub a few times, but so far, no problem.
 
Not Low and Slow

I have flown into OSH 18 or 19 times, now, but only the last three times in the RV-10. Out of habit flying the Warrior I did come in via the slow route twice, but last time I took the higher route. I would estimate that 3/4 of all traffic is trying to fly at the lower/slower corridor, whereas 1/4 are in the upper corridor from RIPON. Given that I can comfortably cruise at 135kts and end up seeing far less traffic in the upper zone, I plan to go in higher if able.
 
I prefer to arrive at RIPON at 7:00 AM of the first day that the controllers are on duty when there is no other traffic all the way to OSH, either low or high. :) Not guaranteed, but I've had that experience twice and would expect it this year, too. One year, in mid-afternoon, I was behind a Bonanza who kept getting slower and then I saw the Zenith in front of him. The controller actually told the Bonanza to fly OVER him as we approached the runway. I thought, "Next time, I've got to find a better way."

Arriving at Oshkosh and one other thing are the only two things I like to wake up for. :eek:
 
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