[MattM]

Hi everyone! Great to be on this forum.

I'm making this first post because I read about someone who organized a group of high school kids to build an RV-12. The project was a success and they ended up taking the completed plane to Oshkosh 2012.

That project was such a great thing for these students because they were able to do something fun and fulfilling with other students, they were able to grow as people, and they learned to work together in a group towards a common goal.

Not only that, but they were also introduced to the aviation community through this project, which is something that always needs more young people in it. It was a valuable experience in all possible ways.

I would love to do the same thing, which brings me to the point of this post:

It may not be for some time, but I am starting to look into funding options for such a project and would like some feedback and opinions on how to do it.

First, though, a little about me:

My name is Matt. I am 25 years old and a 2012 graduate of Western Michigan University. My degree is in Aviation Flight Science but I am pursuing another career path so I am not actively involved in aviation at this time. I have no building experience and very little money.

Now that you know the basics, you can better understand the challenges I face: 1) find someone with building experience to help oversee the project, 2) raise money to pay for the entire project from start to finish. (I don't foresee finding kids who will want to participate in this project to be a challenge so I've left that out.)

The first challenge can easily be overcome. I am sure I can find an EAA member who would be excited and willing to help oversee the project.

The second challenge is the thing that will take more work and ingenuity to overcome.

I want to raise enough to build an RV-7A. I've heard nothing but great things about that design and think it would be a great choice for the project. Judging by the cost estimator at vansaircraft.com, I will need a maximum of about $117,000 (in the case of building the nicest plane with the best avionics, new engine, etc.) I would also need to raise about $3,600 or so to pay for a rental space in which to build the plane (that's just my estimate of $300/mo, which could be inaccurate.) Then, on top of that, I'm sure there will be other costs that I haven't thought of because, well, let's face it... there always are.

What it comes down to is this: if this project is going to get off the ground (pun intended!) then I need to raise about $120,000 from the aviation community to do it.

My question is this: is this possible, and if so, how would you go about it?

Thanks in advance for all your opinions/advice!

Oh, and also, I would like to be able to provide free flight training to these students once the plane is complete, but that's a whole 'nother discussion.

(Sorry about the long post - I didn't have time to write a short one!)

 

[rvbuilder2002]

I led the first Teen project to bring an RV-12 to OSH (2011). You can find a video done about the project HERE. There have been many more great projects since then.

A couple comments regarding your post.

It sounds like you are interested in an airplane for your self (?), and you will involve and train Teens through the process? The $$$ are out there, but people with the means, want to know what their $$$ are paying for. If you want others to pay for the airplane, expect to set up some type of non-profit that will own the airplane (not you personally).

What makes the RV-12 a great choice for this type of project is that because of its design, and highly developed construction manual, it is easy to build and it builds fast. This makes it easy (relatively) for Teenagers to jump in and make continually visible progress which keeps them motivated. Even then, it is common to take 1 1/2 years to complete. An RV-7 would take 3-4 times that. That means that many of the kids involved will have moved on to other things long before it gets close to flying.

I think you will need to find more than one experienced helper. Figure on an adult to teen ratio of at least 1:2 until everyone gets some experience.
This may be irrelevant if you intend to personally work on the plane as much as possible , regardless whether the teens are present or not.

 

[Mike S]

Welcome to VAF!

Matt, welcome to the good ship VAF

Good to have you aboard.

 

[MattM]

I led the first Teen project to bring an RV-12 to OSH (2011). You can find a video done about the project HERE. There have been many more great projects since then.

A couple comments regarding your post.

It sounds like you are interested in an airplane for your self (?), and you will involve and train Teens through the process? The $$$ are out there, but people with the means, want to know what their $$$ are paying for. If you want others to pay for the airplane, expect to set up some type of non-profit that will own the airplane (not you personally).

What makes the RV-12 a great choice for this type of project is that because of its design, and highly developed construction manual, it is easy to build and it builds fast. This makes it easy (relatively) for Teenagers to jump in and make continually visible progress which keeps them motivated. Even then, it is common to take 1 1/2 years to complete. An RV-7 would take 3-4 times that. That means that many of the kids involved will have moved on to other things long before it gets close to flying.

I think you will need to find more than one experienced helper. Figure on an adult to teen ratio of at least 1:2 until everyone gets some experience.
This may be irrelevant if you intend to personally work on the plane as much as possible , regardless whether the teens are present or not.

Thanks for the comments! From the limited thinking I did on the subject of who would own the plane, a non-profit seemed to make the most sense because people wouldn't want to pay for a plane for a private owner, like you said.

Thanks for the recommendation on the -12. I didn't realize that one was an easier build than another.

Matt, welcome to the good ship VAF

Good to have you aboard.

Thank you!

 

[Ironflight]

Matt, you might want to send a PM to Ernie Butcher. He's one of the principles of "Eagles Nest", and has worked on many of the issues you raised. Scott's answers come from experience as well, and Ernie is working on new projects all the time. His username here is "Special Delivery".

Paul

 

[aarvig]

Another thought...

Everyone has put forth good advice. Based on what I am reading you are intending to use this aircraft for your own personal use. If that is the case you will have to purchase it from the non-profit organization once the build is complete. There is just no way the IRS is going let you "borrow" someone else's money to build an airplane (regardless of how well intentioned you may be to introduce young folks to aviation). The only way I see your plan working would be to involve a large charity organization (such as Susan G. Kohman, St. Judes, etc.). They would have to own the aircraft or contract with your non-profit organization for its use. The aircraft would have to be painted with said organizations logo and you would have to structure a contract that would require you to fly the airplane to fly-ins around the country on a regular basis. This may require a commercial cert. (not sure...someone else jump in here). If you flew it for 100 hours per year and 75 of those hours were personal use and 25 were charitable use...the IRS is not going to be happy. Its use would have to be well documented and the majority if not all of the hours would have to be flown for charitable purpose. Additionally, you may find it difficult to use a plane owned by a non-profit organization for personal purposes. The company insuring the aircraft under a non-profit structure may not allow that to happen let alone the IRS. I would recommend talking to someone who specializes in tax work, particularly non-profit. Additionally, I recommend talking to aircraft insurers to find out what requirements they have in insuring non-profit owned aircraft. Keep in mind as well that the $117K is just the cost to get the airplane flying. You will have annual costs associated with aircraft ownership as well. If the non-profit is paying for these and you are flying the plane personally, the IRS will definitely want to speak with you.
I went down this same mental process when I was in your shoes. The reality of the situation is that the best bet is to work hard, start saving, fund the build yourself as you go and involve as many youngsters in the process as you can. You'll save endless hours on build time and you won't have to look over your shoulder every time you get in the cockpit.
Just my two cents...

 

[videobobk]

A word from the founder...

I am the founder of Eagle's Nest Projects, and the one who led that group to Oshkosh last year. I deeply appreciate the compliments, and yes, we think the program is successful. We have ten projects either approved, building, or flying. Another student soloed in EN-1 today, so we are well into the flight-training phase. Students get their SP license after completing the project--free.

Ernie Butcher is another prime mover in this program, and we have several reps helping out. This program took years to get to this point, and it has been very hard work. I would encourage you to get involved with an ongoing organization, be a part and add your expertise. I can guarantee you it will save you years of work. It also makes getting both high school and college credit much easier, nice bonuses for the students.

It can also eliminate the need to find financing, unless of course you are doing this to have your own aircraft. As mentioned above, there are rules that we all must follow.

I can tell you that helping a group build an RV-12 is about as much fun as you can have. The rewards are amazing, just watching that kid grease three landings a few hours ago made my whole month. Seeing a kid "get it" always brings a smile to both our faces.

Suggestions: To learn a little more, see page 54 of this month's AOPA Pilot magazine (May issue.) Come to Oshkosh this year. We will have forums on both Monday and Thursday mornings, together with the Teen Flight group. I have a book on how to run a project which I may send you, but we would need to talk first. Contact either me or Ernie and we will fill you in, but do plan on seeing us at AirVenture '13. We will have three completed aircraft there this year, and lots of builders!

Bob Kelly
812 701-5454

 

[MattM]

Everyone has put forth good advice. Based on what I am reading you are intending to use this aircraft for your own personal use. If that is the case you will have to purchase it from the non-profit organization once the build is complete. There is just no way the IRS is going let you "borrow" someone else's money to build an airplane (regardless of how well intentioned you may be to introduce young folks to aviation). The only way I see your plan working would be to involve a large charity organization (such as Susan G. Kohman, St. Judes, etc.). They would have to own the aircraft or contract with your non-profit organization for its use. The aircraft would have to be painted with said organizations logo and you would have to structure a contract that would require you to fly the airplane to fly-ins around the country on a regular basis. This may require a commercial cert. (not sure...someone else jump in here). If you flew it for 100 hours per year and 75 of those hours were personal use and 25 were charitable use...the IRS is not going to be happy. Its use would have to be well documented and the majority if not all of the hours would have to be flown for charitable purpose. Additionally, you may find it difficult to use a plane owned by a non-profit organization for personal purposes. The company insuring the aircraft under a non-profit structure may not allow that to happen let alone the IRS. I would recommend talking to someone who specializes in tax work, particularly non-profit. Additionally, I recommend talking to aircraft insurers to find out what requirements they have in insuring non-profit owned aircraft. Keep in mind as well that the $117K is just the cost to get the airplane flying. You will have annual costs associated with aircraft ownership as well. If the non-profit is paying for these and you are flying the plane personally, the IRS will definitely want to speak with you.
I went down this same mental process when I was in your shoes. The reality of the situation is that the best bet is to work hard, start saving, fund the build yourself as you go and involve as many youngsters in the process as you can. You'll save endless hours on build time and you won't have to look over your shoulder every time you get in the cockpit.
Just my two cents...

Thanks for your comments. To address the issue of the purpose of this project, yes, it would be nice to have a personal plane, but I'm not sitting here thinking about how to con people into paying for an airplane for me. If I could end up owning it afterwards that would be great but the main purpose of the project is to make an impact on these kids (and myself) by giving them such a wonderful opportunity to learn and grow. (I would learn and grow in the process as well.) I don't have to explain it to you guys -- being RV builders yourselves, you know exactly what I mean.

Also, I want to be able to provide free flight training to them as well (I don't think I mentioned that in my original post.) If I could raise enough extra money, I would be absolutely thrilled to be able to do that!

I thought about all the extra costs associated with flying and aircraft ownership too and wrote out a pretty good estimate. I know I'll need more than the $120k it will take to build the plane (to maintain, store, and operate it after it's built) but I didn't include it in my first post because I figured to get the idea across I didn't need to write out a cost breakdown.

In case it matters for this discussion (in the case of flying for a non-profit or whatnot) I am a commercial pilot.

Thanks again for your comments!

I am the founder of Eagle's Nest Projects, and the one who led that group to Oshkosh last year. I deeply appreciate the compliments, and yes, we think the program is successful. We have ten projects either approved, building, or flying. Another student soloed in EN-1 today, so we are well into the flight-training phase. Students get their SP license after completing the project--free.

Ernie Butcher is another prime mover in this program, and we have several reps helping out. This program took years to get to this point, and it has been very hard work. I would encourage you to get involved with an ongoing organization, be a part and add your expertise. I can guarantee you it will save you years of work. It also makes getting both high school and college credit much easier, nice bonuses for the students.

It can also eliminate the need to find financing, unless of course you are doing this to have your own aircraft. As mentioned above, there are rules that we all must follow.

I can tell you that helping a group build an RV-12 is about as much fun as you can have. The rewards are amazing, just watching that kid grease three landings a few hours ago made my whole month. Seeing a kid "get it" always brings a smile to both our faces.

Suggestions: To learn a little more, see page 54 of this month's AOPA Pilot magazine (May issue.) Come to Oshkosh this year. We will have forums on both Monday and Thursday mornings, together with the Teen Flight group. I have a book on how to run a project which I may send you, but we would need to talk first. Contact either me or Ernie and we will fill you in, but do plan on seeing us at AirVenture '13. We will have three completed aircraft there this year, and lots of builders!

Bob Kelly
812 701-5454

Wow, you are the one I read about that got me started on this whole idea! It was in the AOPA magazine that you mentioned. So awesome to have you comment on this thread!

I can only imagine how you feel when you see the students succeed -- at building AND flying. Seeing people "get it" is one of the things that I really cherish as well. I love helping people to that point because it is so fulfilling.

I was at Oshkosh last year but was totally unaware of your project. If I can make it there this year I will absolutely stop by and talk to you in person!

This is still just an idea for me right now. I'm not in a position to take on a project like this at the moment and probably won't be until later this year at least, so I'm not in a hurry to get anything going. I'm just in the research / information gathering phase. When I am ready to take it more seriously I will contact you for more information. (I may give you a call sooner just to hear about the project and all that went into it, if that's okay.)

Thank you SO much for the opportunity for me to talk to you about this project, and for all the information!