[Rutus]

Took my first aerobatic lesson today with Mike Seager at Scappoose, OR (KSPB) after putting about 160 hrs on my -6. It was an unusually hot day here in the Northwest - 86 in the shade at Scappoose at 1 PM, and about the same up in the Seattle area. We had some chalk talk, then out for ~45 minutes of rolls and loops (taught much as outlined by good ol' George a/k/a gmcjetpilot in another thread here). The rolls were easy, the loops a little harder to get right, and they definitely affected the old gut and head after 6-8 of them with a 3-4G pull most of the way through.

The -6 really does these maneuvers easily, though the loops are more egg-shaped than round, and the rolls were more barrel-roll style than a pure aileron roll. But it was a great introduction to these maneuvers, and Mike is a great teacher, as those who have flown with him know. I plan to practice over the next few months - after installing a G-meter - and then get back with Mike in the fall for some further work.

Those of you who have done plenty of aero, or have military training, would naturally look at this and say "big deal!", but for the rest of us, it is a real eye-opener into "the rest of the envelope", and money and time well spent. If you haven't tried it, I encourage you to get out there with a qualified instructor and get started

Now, time for a post-flight refreshment - or 2 - or 3.......

 

[groucho]

Congrats!! Welcome to a whole new world. You've been smart about it so far by getting someone who's knowledgable about aerobatics to teach you. Continue to push yourself to make your maneuvers better & be safe!

 

[Brian Vickers]

Good write-up

Nice going John. That's doing it the right way... instruction

Brian Vickers, Bainbridge Island, WA RV4 finishing

 

[RVAddict]

but for the rest of us, it is a real eye-opener into "the rest of the envelope", and money and time well spent. If you haven't tried it, I encourage you to get out there with a qualified instructor and get started

John,
I'm VERY early on in my PPL training and I'm interested in doing acro/formation. I'll admit that when I first started flying in Jan of this year it scared the **** out of me. All the bouncing around really caused me a high level of angst for a while. It has gotten much better since then, and I only have 5.4 hrs in. I had to do my first ever stalls in my last lesson. (power off and on) Those didn't really bother me, and the 30* banks in a "Steep" turn don't bother me all that much anymore. I know I'll have to do 45* and 60* turns sometime in the future and that bothers me some.

I'll try to hurry up and get to the point of this long winded post: I've also ridden with a few people in a Citabria. I love the plane and can't wait to learn to fly it, but every time I go up in it with someone they make me nervous doing fast manouvers in it. 45*+ banks in turns or a steep climb out, ect. These are things that are VERY common, seems to me anyway, and I want to learn to do them. So my question is, Do you ever get used to doing these manouvers so that they don't scare the **** out of you and you can enjoy doing them? I'd like to do loops, rolls, spins ect, but the thought of doing those things right now terrifies me.

What has been your exprience (or others on here) with this?

Thanks,

 

[Spindrift]

Josh,

In contrast to the 'No Fear' brand, my attitude has been 'fear keeps you alive' and this has served me well in rock climbing, mountaineering, and, more recently in flying. I'm up to about 110 hrs having gotten my PPL just under a year ago, and I can say that the trepidation you feel does subside as you get more experience, but I'm not sure you want it to ever go away completely because it keeps you sharp. I had the unfortunate experience of an engine failure as a solo student, and it was the fear of stalling that kept me VERY focused on flying the plane all the way to the ground. True, I did ground loop due to very soft ground in the field I landed in, but I walked away uninjured.

After getting back in the air and finishing my training, I took it a step further and got additional stall/spin training with my instructor in the C152 I usually fly, as well as took an hour of acrobatic training in a T6 Texan. In those 2 lessons I got MUCH more comfortable with what both the airplane and I can handle. It also sealed the deal on building a 7A vs 9A. I look forward to my transition and acro training with Mike when the time comes.

Keep flying, and sign up for a mentor through AOPA. It definitely can't hurt to have someone keeping tabs on you besides your instructor.

 

[Danny King]

Fear is a natural response to the unknown. I believe it is to be concurred. Jimmy Buffet wrote in one of his books that you have to put yourself out there a little on the edge to know that you are alive. A rocking chair on the front porch is safer that most other activities.

Aerobatics will only be scary until they become routine. When you reach that stage, your will have learned what an airplane is for! The fact that it's 3D is what makes it so special. One day you will do a slow barrel roll, or pause at the top of a loop, take a look at the world above you, and marvel at the true beauty of flight

After you achieve your PPL, there will be times where you will try to explain to non-fliers, afraid of airplanes, just what they are missing. That is not unlike what those of us that fly aerobatics and formation try to explain to other RV-ers, who think we are crazy, just what they are missing.

 

[Rutus]

+1 on Danny's Comments

Danny hit it on the head - it is the 3D, "all-axis" aspect of these maneuvers that (in my minimal experience, i.e. 1 flight) make it so neat.

Josh, I concur in others' comments regarding your initial experience with people yankin' & bankin' in the Citabria. Early in your training, I can see why this would not be very enjoyable, when you are just learning to become comfortable with the basics of flight. And, I find that it makes a big difference if (1) YOU are not the guy controlling the airplane, and in charge of the maneuver, and/or (2) whether or not you know what the guy in control is going to do, and have been fully briefed on the maneuver to be flown, how it will be flown, what to expect, etc. Lack of control, and lack of a clear understanding of what is coming, are both factors that can substantially reduce the enjoyment of the flight.

Anyway, keep up with your training, remember that all pilots had to start out getting their feet wet, and remember that the more skills you add to your toolbox as you go along, the easier it becomes and the more confident you will be as you move on to more challenging things.

 

[Bill Dicus]

Acro

You definitely got a good start. Aerobatic skills make you a better overall pilot, I think, and not just a little more able to recover from upsets. Reading helped me develop my acro skills as did instruction. The best book for me was Neil Williams' book "Aerobatics." Believe it can be obtained thru IAC. The joys of aerobatics have remaiined for me over 25 years. Have fun! - safely. Bill

 

[pierre smith]

1350 gross?

Guys,
How are we supposed to give aerobatic dual in a -6 when it has an aerobatic gross weight of 1350 Lbs? A 1065 pound -6 plus a 200 lb. pilot is already at 1265, which, according to Van's leaves only 85 pounds. What am I missing here?

Regards,
Pierre

 

[ScottSchmidt]

Guys,
How are we supposed to give aerobatic dual in a -6 when it has an aerobatic gross weight of 1350 Lbs? A 1065 pound -6 plus a 200 lb. pilot is already at 1265, which, according to Van's leaves only 85 pounds. What am I missing here?

Regards,
Pierre

Have you seen Mike Seager lately. The guy only weighs 4 oz.

One of the next steps in your aerobatic training should be to get some good spin training. You probably shouldn't use the RV for this, better to go hop in a Dethathlon or Pitts. Then you can do upright and inverted spins to the left and right as well as power on and off. You really gain an appreciation for the gyroscoptic effect the propeller has. If you ever get too slow on the top of the loop, you are in a great position for an inerverted spin (which I have done), but it is not big deal to get out of. I did a 15 hour spin course at Debbie's flight school in La Porte TX. and then moved into competiton training and it was some of the best and most fun training I have ever done. There is nothing like being upside down in an inverted spin, adding power to really flatten out the spin and do about 6 -10 turns.

Great job on taking the initative to expand your flying skills and safety. I wish aerobatics was still part of the training. The problem is that there just aren't that many that are good at it like Mike.

After you get more training , you absolutely need to go fly in an Extra someday. Rolling faster than 360 deg/sec going straight up is a real kick.

 

[dan]

Guys,
How are we supposed to give aerobatic dual in a -6 when it has an aerobatic gross weight of 1350 Lbs? A 1065 pound -6 plus a 200 lb. pilot is already at 1265, which, according to Van's leaves only 85 pounds. What am I missing here?

Regards,
Pierre

Van's has apparently mentioned in the past that aerobatic gross weight doesn't include fuel. Lots of controversy on this topic, and I'm sure this very post is likely to spark even more.

 

[Low Pass]

Good for you! Not sure if already mentioned, but for those who didn't fly with Mike closely watch the downhill speed accumulation and how hard you pull in the RVs. These aren't like flying acro in a Decathlon. You can break them and they speed up *very* fast with the nose pointed downhill. Just keep this in mind if when transitioning from non-RV acro to RV acro.

Smooth is the key in my form of RV acro. Anyone can jerk the plane around the sky, but smoothness takes more skill. Sine my machine is not negative capable, all my rolls are somewhat "barrelled". With loops and Cubans, I don't care if the arcs are not constant radius, as long as it's smooth. That's what I'm after.

Acro proficiency will make a much better/safer pilot out of you. Just as will formation proficiency. These are added dimensions to the flying experience.

 

[RV7Factory]

AGW... interesting

Dan, that's really interesting, at first I was puzzled by your (Van's) comment so I went in the hunt for more info. A quick search yielded this comment on Randy Lervold's site...

"There has been some confusion on computing Aerobatic gross weight. As confirmed with Van's aircraft on 12/16/05, for any RV, including the RV-3, which has wing tanks, Aerobatic gross weight does NOT include fuel in the wing tanks. Said differently, the pilot may compute (and not exceed) the published Aerobatic Gross Weight figure for his/her model, then add fuel on top of it up to the Normal/Utility category gross weight of the aircraft. The reason for this is that fuel essentially becomes part of the wing structure. Van's is quick to point out however the detrimental effects of higher weights on aircraft performance when operating in the Aerobatic category and encourages pilots to excercise good judgement and caution."

Interesting.

 

[pierre smith]

I didn't add fuel.

"There has been some confusion on computing Aerobatic gross weight. As confirmed with Van's aircraft on 12/16/05, for any RV, including the RV-3, which has wing tanks, Aerobatic gross weight does NOT include fuel in the wing tanks.
Interesting.

Brad,
In my post, I didn't add fuel because I'm aware of the fuel issue, that it's not counted. I pointed out that my empty -6A weighs 1065 Lbs and with a 200 lb pilot it only leaves 100 lbs. or so before it reaches the max aero gross weight. So how do we do dual aerobatics with two 190 pounders?

Regards,
Pierre

 

[dan]

So how do we do dual aerobatics with two 190 pounders?

Carefully.

 

[pierre smith]

I shoulda known....

Carefully.

OK Dan, I bit
The math looks like this (and I'm not talking down to anybody)....1065 empty weight plus two guys weighing 375 total = 1440 lbs. 4 G's exerts around 5760 lbs on the wings. However, at a gross weight of 1650 lbs, 6 G's equal 9900 lbs and you still have a 50% safety margin. I can't see the reasoning for the 1375 max aero gross weight. Someone kindly enlighten us,

Thanks,
Pierre

 

[RV7Factory]

Brad,
In my post, I didn't add fuel because I'm aware of the fuel issue...

Sorry Pierre, my post wasn't directed at you, it was just the first I recall hearing of it, and found the comment and explanation interesting... that's all.

I'm with you, while I understand the explanation, I'm not sure I completely understand the reasoning of specifying an aerobatic gross weight before fuel. Oh well, I'm going to leave this one for the experts.

 

[dan]

Hey, I'm just armchair engineering here, but think of where the weight of fuel is in relation to the moment the wings experience during high Gs. With all the weight in the fuselage, the wings will try to "fold up" under high G loading. With some of the weight out in the wings, there is a natural force counteracting the "folding up" effect. Again, just armchair engineering!

 

[Rutus]

Mike knows the score...

On gross weight and G-loading, which is why he was careful to explain in advance that we would limit to 3 G (as sensed by him based on his hundreds of hours of aero in RVs) so as to stay well away from the edge of the structural envelope. The 4G loop was one where I got a little too aggressive on the initial pull . . .

Mike was also very clear in recommending a G-meter, which I had already planned to install soon, since a newbie at aero won't be able to judge G loads as well. And, he emphasized watching the downside of the loop and keeping the nose coming across the landscape so that speed is controlled; the RV does pick up speed fast coming down. My C/S probably helped a bit there, as well as being one less item to deal with.

Scott is right, Mike has lost weight and gotten in much better shape the last 4 years or so - I mentioned as we were taking a straight-and-level breather that I sorely needed to lose weight and get in better shape (I actually felt better than I thought I might, after the aero work), and that prompted him to tell me how he had really made progress in those areas the last few years. Good advice and insight from Mike on that topic, just as on flying RVs . . .

 

[Captain Avgas]

If you ever get too slow on the top of the loop, you are in a great position for an inerverted spin (which I have done), but it is not big deal to get out of. There is nothing like being upside down in an inverted spin, adding power to really flatten out the spin and do about 6 -10 turns.

Scott, Have you (or anyone else out there) actually ever done an inverted spin in an RV. I am imagining that it might not be possible to maintain an inverted spin in an RV without positive pro-spin control inputs....ie by just letting go the controls the plane would most likely transition to a spiral dive.

This topic was raised a year or so ago and if my memory serves me right no-one was able to step forward and actually confirm that they'd done an inverted spin in an RV.

 

[sandifer]

Spinning at the top of a loop does not an inverted spin make...unless you're doing an outside loop. Now that's something I'd like to see an RV do! Not many RV's have full inverted systems, so it would be interesting to hear from someone who has done a real inverted spin, though I would imagine it would be even more reluctant to enter than an upright spin. It's not always easy to get a clean spin entry in my -3. RV wings love to fly.

 

[frankh]

I once attended a forum

by a few harmon Rocket acro types. One of them claimed he was spinning the plane inverted.

I see in my upcoming traing in July that inverted spins are covered...And my RV has inverted systems so maybe I'll report back with first hand experience...

Frank