hevansrv7a

Well Known Member
I'm in Phase 1. I have a Lift Reserve Indicator. The LRI is just a kind of AOA meter. So, instead of a long series of iterations and imperfect observations, I tried this: Find the airspeed (this day, this altitude) at which the airplane will remain in level flight with the least power. Note where the LRI is pointing. That is now my indicator for best L/D and thus best glide. The speed will likely vary with air conditions and load, but the AOA will not. I asked the LRI distributor if he agreed and he did.

To my surprise, the airspeed for this test was about 75 kts. I expected it to be higher, based on the POH's I've seen from other builders. I don't have wheel and leg fairings yet, so the speed and angle will likely be different when they are installed.

My GRT power meter said 17%, for whatever that's worth. I plan a separate posting on the power meter issue.

If this is an erroneous approach or if you have any other comments, please jump in. Thanks.
 
hevansrv7a said:
Find the airspeed (this day, this altitude) at which the airplane will remain in level flight with the least power.

I've wondered about Vbg too. What do you mean by "level flight with the least power"? Least power would be idle. Level flight could be mantained with different combinations of AOA and power. You lost me...

Anyone know the RV4's typical best glide speed?
 
Clarifying

Level flight cannot be maintained below a given power - below that power, the airplane will sink, no matter what AOA. Referring to the charts we have all seen, the bottom of the power required curve is the best L/D. That is where induced and parasite drag intersect best. If you go slower, the drag rises; if you go faster the drag rises. You need just enough lift to keep from sinking and just enough power to maintain that lift while overcoming all forms of drag combined. If you were gliding, you'd still want that AOA, but you'd be supplying the power by using up stored (gravitational) energy in the form of altitude. In a glide, the speed might be different because the prop would not be turning, but the AOA should be pretty similiar. You can't get any closer to the perfect measurement without shutting off the engine and I'm not ready for that!

I'm being windy here because I'm really not sure what the question was. Sorry!
 
No need to switch the engine off...

Hevansrv7a (huh? :confused: )

There is a way of doing these tests for L/D without switching off your engine.

Jack Norris gave a presentation a long time ago to our EAA Chapter (Van Nuys, about 10 years ago..), and he did testing for the CAFE foundation then. It involved a microswitch and the location of the fore-aft play of your crankshaft in flight....

His methodology (Zero-Thrust) is described here, about half way down the long page...

http://cafefoundation.org/v2/main_story.php

A more compact report is here, but needs EAA membership to log in...

http://members.eaa.org/home/flight_reports/technology.html

gil in Tucson
 
WHERE'S KEVIN

I think Min Drag speed would give you Min Sink (Gliding speak for Minimum Descent rate.)

(Additionally, in the real world there are sometimes benifits gained by not operating at quite the theoretical optimum speed. Long range cruise for example is usually given as slightly higher that optimum to avoid the back of the drag curve.)

But back to your procedure, what you might try is flying at different airspeeds and noting the Pitch Angle and subtracting the Angle of Attack and this would give your actual glide angle. Not sure how acurately you could read the scales, but it should work.

But, where's Kevin.
Pete.
 
I Love this..

I remember that zero-thrust micro-switch article. Great stuff, if you are fanatical about it. I'm not, so this is, perhaps, next best.

As to lowest drag giving minimum sink instead of best L/D, then where on the curve would best L/D be? Now I'm really interested! My undersanding of minimum sink is that it's usually a slower speed than L/D, but which is which? And, why?

Great contributions to the group's knowledge, hopefully mine, too.

Thanks.

p.s. - Not that anyone cares, but my "handle" does not mean: H.E. Van's RV-7A. It's HEvan's RV7-A. The pun was accidental. Oops. Just call me "H".
 
Varies with...

Ball park Vx about 90 mph or 78 kts works pretty good, but......... we want in general best penetration speed or distance.

Definitions:
Vmd - min decent, most time in air, about 90% Vbg
Vbg - the best power-off , greatest (air) distance

Don't forget about wind, fly slower with tail wind faster with head winds. Usually take half of the wind and add or subtract as needed. (Obviously there is a practial limit to the max wind correction.)

Don't forget weight, heavy fly faster, light slower. The variation is about +/-7 mph.

Windmilling propeller - Windmilling reduces Vmd and Vbg speed over a stopped prop. Just keep in mind, if you really do have a dead engine your Vbg will be a little slower than what you got testing with an idling engine. I agree with the other poster there is no need to simulate a real emergency with a real one by intentionally shutting the engine down.

Fixed and constant speed props also have different effects on glide . It's subject to debate wheather stopping the prop is worth it? It's academic if the engine dies right after takeoff. Also some recommend going to high pitch or low RPM if constant speed prop equipped. I say it can't hurt; put the throttle full forward and prop full back. (thanks larry and pete for the correction, but I meant prop back, course, low rpm, and throttle fwd wide open. It's debatable if it makes any significant difference. In theory it sounds good. The reason for open throttle, fwd is less engine force needed in the intake (suction) stroke, ie reducing pumping loss. Less force to turn the prop over equals less drag. This is small stuff but some swear by it. I have not tested the PROP in low RPM (lever back) with a dead engine. With it idling it does make a difference. I suspect the low RPM prop trick works when testing it, is because the idling engine is making residual power/thrust, which is enhanced by going to low RPM. I don't know if you even have enough oil pressure with a dead windmilling engine make the prop move? Depends on the constant speed prop, governor and how fast your are windmilling I suspect. This comes under nice to know, it can't hurt, but it is not top priority in an emergency. Like they say fly the plane, aviate, navigate, communicate.)


Attitude is more important than speed?

More important than the speed is the attitude to me. Know what the sight picture is and have it memorized in your head. There always is going to be vertical gust, winds and other factors you can't account for. Best L/D is an angle of attack thing than speed, right.

Taking off we have a significantly high nose up pitch; it's a big push to get from nose up Vx or Vy climb to nose low best glide attitude. It's a foreign idea for most shove the nose down right after take off near the ground, but that is what you need to do if the engine stops. I know of one guy that did not get the nose down fast enough and mushed into the ground with a high sink rate. That is why I probably carry extra speed in a practice guide. I may not go as far, but I have more energy (and lift) to play with at the last part of the flight, near the ground and most important place. It does not help to get to your landing point if you are sinking like a rock.


When debating this BEST of the best glide speeds, the answer is it depends.

I don't think 5 mph will make much difference. I like to fly Vbg with a little extra for energy to control the flare and a little fast is better than a little slow. The drag curve for one is steeper on the back side.

I go right to 100 mph because it's a round number and easy to remember. I also know unless I am super light or have a big tail wind, 90 or high 80's is a min. At least that is what I think. I am not that good to fly a perfect speed and land in an emergency. I am going to be flying looking out the canopy and only glance at the airspeed. Close is good enough. All I want to do is get on the ground, under complete control, preferably at a reasonably slow speed at a place, my chosen touch down point, which I hope will not hurt too much.
 
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Good Stuff George

All good stuff George.
Another handy thing to know, particularly with a high performance aircraft like an RV, is how much trim is required between Cruise and Best LD Speed.

If you know that 4 sec of back trim will take you from in trim at cruise speed to in trim at best LD, you can be applying that whilst you are trying to relight the fire, look for a field whilst wetting your pants.

If you don't do this you will probaably intially be throwing away altitude whilst descending at cruise speed.

Pete.
 
gmcjetpilot said:
...Also some recommend going to high pitch or low RPM if constant speed prop equipped. I say it can't hurt; put the throttle and prop full forward...

I'm sure you meant prop full rearward.
 
Full Coarse

Yes he did.
If you have it full forward (Fine) the prop is trying to run the engine at high RPM creating lots of drag.
Full coarse will have it windmilling at low RPM. Near idle.
Pete.
PS.You could leave it full fine deliberately causing more drag - the way glider pilots approach with speed brakes out - and then you can pull it coarse if you are not quite going to make your forced landing field- the way glider pilots put the speed brakes away if they get low.
You are effectively maaintainin more energy with full fine as you 'should' be higher on a steeper glide path and then if you get low you can utilise the extra energy by pulling the prop coarse.
Pete.
 
Lots to think about - great inputs

1. fixed pitch - prop is not a factor in my case
2. manual trim
3. Attitude is related to, but not equal to AOA. LRI reads analog of AOA.
4. LRI is not reading pitch nor AOA degrees( not same), so that approach is not feasible
5. the glider stuff is very well done, but how do I apply it to my technique with an engine? How do I know which case with an RV-7A is the yellow glider?

So, is my method of finding best L/D valid? Or is it finding minimum sink? Or what? The glider stuff makes clear they are not equal. I see lots of good advice about how to use the L/D information - for landing, for emergency, for economy cruise, but best L/D is a knowable AOA (not a single speed in all cases). I can and do read the LRI instead of the ASI for some situations such as short field landings. AOA is much more consistent when load and density altitude vary.

A thought: in level flight, lift is a constant equal to aircraft weight. If drag is minimum, then the ratio of L to D is highest at lowest drag. Best L/D by definition. If we accept that power is directly proportional to drag in this example, then minimum power is at minimum drag. What part of this is wrong?
 
Where's Kevin?

If you have a manual trim it's even easier.
Fly at cruise speed and trim. Close the throttle and slow down to your best glide speed (which seems to be agreed to be 90KT/100mph.) without retrimming.
Trim for 90KT and count how many turns of trim are required.
Memorise the number and if the engine fails, wind the trim that number and the aircraft will seeking 90KT whilst you are doing a bit of problem solving.

I think what is missing with your Min drag theory is that you might have min drag, but the lift may increse dramatically for a signicicantly smaller increase in drag as you increase speed. This means that the ratio of Lift and Drag will improve and THAT is what you are seeking. Not Min Drag speed, but best L/D speed.

I assume you are saying that your LRI does not indicate in degrees. Shame, if so as it might have been more useful for Glide testing.

However, I think you have a GRT- as I do
I did the Glide test as follows
Put the memory stick in the GRT.
Climb to 10000'.
Select RECORD for the memory stick.
Close the throttle and descended 1000' at 110KT.
Then 1000' at 100KT and so on back to 60KT.
NOTE L/D is fairly constant with Altitude so any 1000' descent will do.
Land.
REPLAY the memory stick Data and write down speed and the time for each 1000'.
A bit of arithmetic will convert 1000' per sec. to FPM.

Mine came out as Best L/D around 80KT and around 10:1 but as George said, 90KT gives you a little more energy for the flare.

I also used the memory stick for climb tests as you can fly so much more accurately if you are not trying to record data.
Pete.
 
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hevansrv7a said:
So, is my method of finding best L/D valid? Or is it finding minimum sink? Or what? The glider stuff makes clear they are not equal. I see lots of good advice about how to use the L/D information - for landing, for emergency, for economy cruise, but best L/D is a knowable AOA (not a single speed in all cases). I can and do read the LRI instead of the ASI for some situations such as short field landings. AOA is much more consistent when load and density altitude vary.

A thought: in level flight, lift is a constant equal to aircraft weight. If drag is minimum, then the ratio of L to D is highest at lowest drag. Best L/D by definition. If we accept that power is directly proportional to drag in this example, then minimum power is at minimum drag. What part of this is wrong?

Wolfgang Langewiesche wrote "Stick and Rudder" in 1944 and had a lot to say about the art of flying in slightly different terms than are used today, but the same issues were on his mind - namely, getting too carried away with the theory of flight on what engineers thought was going on and what pilots thought was going on. They seldom agreed in those days.

From a pilot point of view, 75 knots may be too slow for an engine out glide in the RV-7A, no matter what your LRI says. Especially so with a CS speed prop, not quite so critical with FP. With CS, drag will build up rapidly going into the flare and the airplane must be ready to touch down because it will quit flying very soon. Seems like it would be better to go into the flare and bleed speed down through best L/D so as to have some control over rate of descent those last few moments.

dd
 
Another recording tool

fodrv7 said:
However, I think you have a GRT- as I do
I did the Glide test as follows
Put the memory stick in the GRT.
Climb to 10000'.
Select RECORD for the memory stick.
Close the throttle and descended 1000' at 110KT.
Then 1000' at 100KT and so on back to 60KT.
NOTE L/D is fairly constant with Altitude so any 1000' descent will do.
Land.
REPLAY the memory stick Data and write down speed and the time for each 1000'.
......................
I also used the memory stick for climb tests as you can fly so much more accurately if you are not trying to record data.
Pete.

If you don't have a GRT or similar, there is another option.

Most glider owners will have a GPS data recorder for badge/record flights. They give a GPS track and accurate barometric altitude (not GPS altitude).

During your Phase I testing you might want to borrow one of these units, hook it up to the static system and tape the GPS antenna somewhere. They will do a great job of flight data recording, tied into GPS time.
Example units are here...
http://www.wingsandwheels.com/page11.htm
I happen to have the LX 20 half way down the page.


I'm surprised I haven't heard more about these being used for homebuilt flight test, they are about 10 years old by now, and widespread in the gliding community.

gil in Tucson
 
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Detail Question for Peter James

Peter says:

"Climb to 10000'.
Select RECORD for the memory stick.
Close the throttle and descended 1000' at 110KT.
Then 1000' at 100KT and so on back to 60KT.
NOTE L/D is fairly constant with Altitude so any 1000' descent will do."

Peter, that would have to be TAS not IAS, right?

Sounds good.

 
If you don't have access to a flight data recorder, you might try a video camera focused on the panel. It lightens your workload in the air and is easy to translate later. It is a good check for missing your attempted airspeed or any uneven attitudes.

Bob Kelly
 
David-aviator said:
"Stick and Rudder" in 1944 and had a lot to say about the art of flying in slightly different terms than are used today, but the same issues were on his mind

All the while, I'm thinking the same thing... S&R is an invaluable resource on this topic.

I've trained in two different EMT settings. They both teach the same thing regarding engine outs. The emergency technique for any engine failure is Speed-Spot-Setup. The MOST important thing to do FIRST is get the plane on it's best glide and keep it there. Don't do other things until Vbg is established.

For this reason I like a nose down trim feel on take off. If it quits at that point, the stick will need a push. This is unnatural without training and practice. :eek:
 
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L/d Is IAS

hevansrv7a said:
Peter says:

"Climb to 10000'.
Select RECORD for the memory stick.
Close the throttle and descended 1000' at 110KT.
Then 1000' at 100KT and so on back to 60KT.
NOTE L/D is fairly constant with Altitude so any 1000' descent will do."

Peter, that would have to be TAS not IAS, right?

Sounds good.

No all the wing knows is what the air molecules are doing.
it senses IAS and so L/D and Min sink are IAS.
Pete.
 
You're finding min sink

hevansrv7a said:
So, is my method of finding best L/D valid? Or is it finding minimum sink? Or what?
No, your method is incorrect. You are finding the minimum sink AoA. Max L/D occurs at bit lower AoA or higher airspeed.

You are correct that if you find the AoA at max L/D it will not vary with flight condition. Of course, the effect of the wind noted in George's post does still apply.
 
If you are high...

keen9a said:
No, your method is incorrect. You are finding the minimum sink AoA. Max L/D occurs at bit lower AoA or higher airspeed.

You are correct that if you find the AoA at max L/D it will not vary with flight condition. Of course, the effect of the wind noted in George's post does still apply.

But, if you are high and the fan stops... and you don't have a specific landing place already chosen, flying at minimum sink will give you more "thinking time" before your arrival on terra firma.

Best L/D will get you to a further location (depends on winds, as mentioned before) if you know where you want to go.

So slowing initially to min. sink at a high altitude might be the best thing to do, and then use max. L/D to get to a chosen field....

gil in Tucson
 
Wind your clock

This discussion came up also. It seems logical, but I would choose Vbg for two reasons.
1.It is farther away from stall speed
2.There's more time than you think

Naval aviators are taught the first thing to do in an emergency is "Wind your clock". This is to settle down the pilot and implies there is plenty of time to deal with the situation... as long as we don't compound the problem. I think having landing options (ie a bigger cone) is safer than more time in the air. Speed-Spot-Setup. I feel time in the air would only help the third, least important of these. Whereas, Vbg would help the more important "Spot"... IMHO
 
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Glider guys and gals talk about a "glide polar", which is a graph constructed thusly: Horizontal axis is forward speed, vertical axis is vertical speed. With enough data points a smooth curve will be formed. The top of the curve is minimum sink. Best L/D speed is found by drawing a line from zero that is tangent to the curve. The tangent point is best L/D. If the x and y axis have the same units of measure, the angle of the line is the actual glide angle of the aircraft under the conditons of test. Clear as mud? Sorry, this is the best I can do from memory. Consult any glider manual for graphs and a better description.... I haven't experimented with a lift reserve indicator, but my guess is that it is indicating minimum sink speed with the engine running at low power, i.e., the conditions of test. This may be different than minimum sink with a windmilling propellor because of the (unknown) effects of the propellor wash. I don't think the test that was described in an earlier post was measuring best L/D.... In regards to the CAFE testing, the zero prop thrust indicator was developed to measure the gliding efficiency of the airframe without the influence of the propellor. We power pilots want to know best L/D speed with the engine out and the propellor windmilling. So any testing should be done under those conditions.... In my experience, pulling the propellor control out (back) makes a very noticeable improvement in glide angle. I am not so sure about the throttle position. A wide open throttle allows the engine to pump more air and therefore do more work. First principles seems to indicate less engine drag with a closed throttle. Anyone know? With all the fancy computerized cockpit instrumentation now available, we should soon be reaping a cornucopia of flight data.
 
You need a "spot" first

ProCoach said:
This discussion came up also. It seems logical, but I would choose Vbg for two reasons.
1.It is farther away from stall speed
2.There's more time than you think

Naval aviators are taught the first thing to do in an emergency is "Wind your clock". This is to settle down the pilot and implies there is plenty of time to deal with the situation... as long as we don't compound the problem. I think having landing options (ie a bigger cone) is safer than more time in the air. Speed-Spot-Setup. I feel time in the air would only help the third, least important of these. Whereas, Vbg would help the more important "Spot"... IMHO

ProCoach (huh?)

I don't disagree with your sequence, but my point was heading off in an unknown direction at best L/D may not be the best initial action.

Pick the "spot" by looking (a 360 at close to min. sink?), and then use best L/D (calculated for wind effects noticed during the 360) to get there.

Best glide in a random direction may not be good when there is a private grass strip hiding just under your right wing.... and yes, my instructor did do this to me when I was learning... :) ....if you are high enough, look for the best place, then go for it.

However, flying my sailplane, I must admit I am much more aware of where the landing spots are than flying the Tiger. With a 10:1 glide ratio, the Tiger is often not near any landing spots flying in the great SW desert... :(

Note: All above comments based on having altitude available....

gil in Tucson
 
Stephen Lindberg said:
With all the fancy computerized cockpit instrumentation now available, we should soon be reaping a cornucopia of flight data.

Well with the GRT EFIS platform pretty much evreything you can possibly want for attitude, rates, speeds and engine is available from the 'demo' log file. See http://www.rvproject.gen.nz/grt - GRTDecode post processing is used to get the data out of the binary .LOG form.

Regards,

Carl
 
GRT good, not perfect

I have asked GRT to add the 100 fpm ticks to the climb/descend indicator. I gave these main reasons:
1. for testing in phase one
2. for verifying performance against expectations
2. for shooting ILS approaches. For a 3 degree slope, the descent rate should be 1/2 the groundspeed in knots (100 kts = 500 fpm, 80 kts = 400 fpm, etc.).

Right now, if you have the maximum set to 2000 fpm, you only see 500 fpm tick marks. If you don't have it set for that, it's 1000 fpm and you see 250 fpm ticks. Still not good enough.

I don't think climb rate shows directly on the decode output, but you can figure it out from the time stamps and altitude. It's cumbersome, but it can be done. CORRECTION - VSI does show on the output.

GRT might give this request higher priority if more of us asked for it. Hint.
 
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Not much gained

My descent flight test figures are not Flight Test Engineer accurate but some useful conclusions can be made.
Descent at best L/D was around 80KT and 1000fpm.
Min descent rate was around 70KT and 880fpm.
This means you would gain 8 seconds 'thinking time' per thousand feet at Min Sink compared with Best LD.
Even if the difference was 200fpm you would only gain 16sec per 1000'.

So go for best L/D, then;
You only have one speed to remember and fly to.
And all the other benifits George covered.

Having trained many ab initio pilots, I can assure, you the best results come when you KNOW the Procedure and put it into action calmy and methodically. Not by flying dead accurate airspeed. Trim it an it will look after itself while you try and save your butt as they say in Nth America.

Not that this theoretical discussion about Min Sink and Best L/D isn't fascinating; but we need to be careful when taking these theoretical speed and applying them to the real world.

Back on the theory, I see some did not look up the site http://home.att.net/~jdburch/polar.htm that I posted earlier.
It really is worth a minute as it graphically explains what happens if you fly above or below best L/D and the effect of flying at Min Sink.
Pete.
 
Nimbus, Libelle or RV

Alex,
I proposed this in an earlier post. But like all techniques you ought to go an try it BEFORE you have an engine failure.
You could leave it full fine deliberately causing more drag - the way glider pilots approach with speed brakes out - and then you can pull it coarse if you are not quite going to make your forced landing field- the way glider pilots put the speed brakes away if they get low.
You are effectively maaintainin more energy with full fine as you 'should' be higher on a steeper glide path and then if you get low you can utilise the extra energy by pulling the prop coarse.

Pete.
Love the Libelle.