Mark Burns

Mark Burns

Well Known Member
I know that sounds ridiculous, but.
The two instructors I flew with for my transition training keep telling me to be gentle with the stick. I was used to flying a Decathlon and 172's.

So, I would lift the nosewheel at about 60-65 mph. it always seemed to go a little too nose high but the speed built fast and I was at 80 in an instant even though I was nose high.

Landings have been sooo easy! I've only bounced a little once.
But the take-offs always felt a little strange.

Now with 12 hours on my RV-7A I've figured it out!! When they say lift the nose wheel at 60-65 it means lift it about 1 inch and that's all. When you barely lift it the airplane flys off like it should.....much better.

I probably shouldn't admit it took me 12 hours to get the hang of it but maybe this will help someone else.

Mark
 
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My Method.

You should start the takeoff roll with "UP" elevator. When the nose wheel comes off, hold it about 6" off the ground and let the airplane fly off.
 
My thoughts too!

Just like Mel I find that holding up elevator during the role will lift the nose around 30 mph, releasing back-pressure to just keep the nose tire off the ground. Around 60-65 mph she flies off. Lately I have been using the first notch of flaps (manual) for takeoff and she flies sooner and is more stable once airborne. Of course I'm flying a 6A.
 
I 3rd that

Mel said:
You should start the takeoff roll with "UP" elevator. When the nose wheel comes off, hold it about 6" off the ground and let the airplane fly off.
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third that Mel, I also use 20 deg flaps to get off as fast as possible. After the 6A, flying the 182 is like a rumbling tank!
 
One other recommendation.

Try using about 15* of flap. If you have electric flaps, align the flaps with a "down" aileron. The differential ailerons are normally rigged for optimum lift to drag ratio. On the RV this works out to about 15*.
 
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10 degrees

Normal takeoff:
I use 10 degrees of flap on my 9A for take off. Neutral pitch trim. Neutral elevator. Feel for lift. Lighten the nose. Climb out at 80 mph. Retract flaps.

Steve
 
Mel:
The differential ailerons are designed to minimize adverse yaw when turning. The down aileron (top wing in a turn) generates induced drag as a result of increased lift. This causes the nose to pull in the opposite direction of the turn. Van's has designed the up aileron to have greater travel, thus partially offsetting the high wing drag. In addition, look at the pivot point of the ailerons and you'll see that the up aileron also protrudes below the wing when deflected, also to provide additional drag. This is why the RVs require so little rudder in and out of turns as opposed to most Cessnas, where you have to really stomp on the pedal to keep the turn coordinated.
Terry
 
Mel said:
You should start the takeoff roll with "UP" elevator. When the nose wheel comes off, hold it about 6" off the ground and let the airplane fly off.
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When I did my RV7A transition training with Mike Seager in Oregon he encouraged me to start the take-off roll with elevators neutral and ease back when there was sufficient speed to provide enough authority to just bring the nose off the ground (about 15 knots). The idea was to bring the nose off the ground at the earliest possible moment and hold it JUST off the ground until the plane flew itself into the air.

I discovered that RVA transition training with Mike was 90% about just protecting that flimsy little nose gear.

Most RV pilots I see take-off the same way they've been flying Cessnas and Pipers...... they accelerate to about 65 knots with the nose gear firmly planted on the ground and then suddenly pull back on the yoke and rotate.
 
As Mel said....

Stick back; full throttle; when nose starts lifting ease the stick forward, but avoid touching the wheel back down. Hold that attitude and the plane flies off by its self. This will save your nose gear/tire as it immediately reduces the weight on the tire up front.

With a little practice it's easy to do.

Kent
 
Yep.

terrykohler said:
Mel:
The differential ailerons are designed to minimize adverse yaw when turning. The down aileron (top wing in a turn) generates induced drag as a result of increased lift. This causes the nose to pull in the opposite direction of the turn. Van's has designed the up aileron to have greater travel, thus partially offsetting the high wing drag. In addition, look at the pivot point of the ailerons and you'll see that the up aileron also protrudes below the wing when deflected, also to provide additional drag. This is why the RVs require so little rudder in and out of turns as opposed to most Cessnas, where you have to really stomp on the pedal to keep the turn coordinated.
Terry
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I think that's what I said. The "down" aileron is set up for minimum drag and maximum lift. Which is what you want the flaps to do on take-off.
 
I partly hesitate to join in on this thread because our 9A has more thrust than the average 9 since we have 180 hp and a 3 blade constant speed MT prop, but here's how we do a take off.
I strongly resist recommending a full back stick start unless you're doing a soft field or short field takeoff. You'll be hanging there if it's a gusty day or a strong crosswind.
I do a similar takeoff with the 9 as I've done in all the other planes I've flown in my 6000 plus hours.
No flaps, unless a soft or short field.
Keep the wheels planted on the runway until you see your takeoff speed (as noted in past flights) has been reached. Ease the stick back and go fly. This is especially applicable in a cross wind.
In the case of our 9A, when I see 53-55 mph, a little back pressure, and we're off the ground and climbing.
Having said all this, in the case of my One Design aerobatic tail dragger, I found that doing a main wheel takeoff was wearing out my left main tire 3 times faster than the right main (engine torque). Now I do a 3 point levitation liftoff, then when about 20 feet above the runway, lower the nose until I see 100 mph, then climb. Now I have equal wear on both sides.
These techniques work for me !!!
Regards
Jack
 
No need to 'rotate' an RV. Do as Mel said. Maybe you don't need full up elevator, but I generally do about half that and get the nosehweel off the ground as soon as possible. I just hold the nosewheel there and let the airplane leave the runway itself. There is absolutely NO reason to keep the nosewheel on the ground until take-off. None whatsoever. You're just wearing it out. This is ESPECIALLY true if you are taking off on grass. These aren't C-172s, folks.

I have taken off and landed in 25kt crosswind 90 degrees to the runway and I have absolutely no problem keeping the nosewheel off the ground above about 28kts.

Sorry if I'm coming off as a little 'assertive', but in my opinion this sort of thing is one of the contributing factors to people having NLG failures. I'm not saying I'm perfect, but I have seen a lot of very poor landing and take-off techniques in the RV-XA models.
 
Jamie said:
There is absolutely NO reason to keep the nosewheel on the ground until take-off. None whatsoever. You're just wearing it out.
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Jamie
You have some good points, however I'm not saying to use forward stick to keep the nosewheel planted on the ground, but you should know the stick position for a neutral pitch balance on rollout.
As a matter of fact, I was looking at my nose tire today, and with 70 takeoffs and landings on it, all on hard surfaces, it looks brand new. My home airport has 2 long runways, so we also tend to do a lot of taxiing.
You can be sure, that if I'm on a grass strip, I will be using some flaps, and aft stick on roll out!!!
I'm not recommending my technique to any other pilot, just mentioning what I feel safer and more comfortable with.
Jack
 
THIS IS RIGHT ON!!!

Jamie said:
No need to 'rotate' an RV. Do as Mel said. Maybe you don't need full up elevator, but I generally do about half that and get the nosehweel off the ground as soon as possible. I just hold the nosewheel there and let the airplane leave the runway itself. There is absolutely NO reason to keep the nosewheel on the ground until take-off. None whatsoever. You're just wearing it out. This is ESPECIALLY true if you are taking off on grass. These aren't C-172s, folks.

I have taken off and landed in 25kt crosswind 90 degrees to the runway and I have absolutely no problem keeping the nosewheel off the ground above about 28kts.

Sorry if I'm coming off as a little 'assertive', but in my opinion this sort of thing is one of the contributing factors to people having NLG failures. I'm not saying I'm perfect, but I have seen a lot of very poor landing and take-off techniques in the RV-XA models.
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The only thing that I would add to this, is that I hold aft stick at the start of TAXI from the hangar, and only let off pressure when the nose lifts.

With the engine at a 600 rpm idle, you can lift THE NOSE a few inches with the elevators................. = less weight on the nose wheel. The nose wheel should never see 40+ mph.
 
Ok guys, good stuff!

I'll work on getting the nose up as soon as possible.
I think the 6" that Mel suggests is a bit excessive but he was flying RV's long before I even thought of building one! So, I'll give that a try also.

Thanks guys! And don't let this post stop the discussion, it's been interesting.

Mark
 
Well I never

thought of using 15 deg of flap to get off earlier..I thought the extra drag of the flaps would be a detriment..Hmm..might have to try this

Frank
 
Lift vs drag

frankh said:
thought of using 15 deg of flap to get off earlier..I thought the extra drag of the flaps would be a detriment..Hmm..might have to try this

Frank
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I was talking about this once from an old fighter pilot and A&P.

His comment was that the 1st 10 of flaps in a flap is considered lift. When you go more, it becomes drag. I don't know if it is exactly 10 but I agree with him.

Ever notice how some planes have 10 of flaps in the POH for a routine take-off such as a Cardinal or Cherokee 6 (at least the ones I have flown). Switch over to grass or short field and off the top of my head, I can't think of a plane that doesn't recommend it.

This topic is great timing since the maiden flight is tomorrow about noon. From what I can tell, it sounds like every take off should be treated almost like a soft or short field take off.
 
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Yep !

kentb said:
Stick back; full throttle; when nose starts lifting ease the stick forward, but avoid touching the wheel back down. Hold that attitude and the plane flies off by its self. This will save your nose gear/tire as it immediately reduces the weight on the tire up front.

With a little practice it's easy to do.

Kent
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In fact, that is the exact technique for an F-4 Phantom. So it comes naturally for me! :D Works, too!
 
All flaps are not created equal....

Webb said:
I was talking about this once from an old fighter pilot and A&P.
His comment was that the 1st 10 of flaps in a flap is considered lift. When you go more, it becomes drag. I don't know if it is exactly 10 but I agree with him.
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Some Cessnas use 10* of flap for short field, some recommend none. The Cherokee 140 needs 2 notches for short field take-off. Having a 1500' strip, I will not allow anyone to land here unless they know the short field procedures for their particular airplane. I have tested my -6 and it gets off in the shortest distance with 15* of flap.I have also tested other short wing RVs and 15* seems to be optimal.
I actually use 13.3* because my mechanical flaps have 3 equal notches between 0-40.
 
I always start out with one notch of flaps on downwind. From there, it's whatever I need to control descent with the exception of short or soft field where I always drop full flaps on final. I keep glide speed at 80 mph until final. Crossing the threshold, I try to be around 65 mph, but to be honest, at that point, I'm not looking at the gauges.
And almost always 3-point. That's mains and tail wheel, NOT nose wheel.
 
I start the roll with the stick full back, and ease it forward as speed builds up.........which is awfully quick. I then try to keep the wheel off that inch or two , until "I" want it to fly. My 6A is already in more of a takeoff attitude than the newer 7 & 9's, because of the gear legs & tail down position. It will be always doing short field takeoff's, if you just let it fly off.

I did have to learn to finess T&G's, because they started out like bounce & goes, with a bit of torque thrown in. This was totally different than the 9A's I had been flying.

L.Adamson -- RV6A
 
Mel said:
I always start out with one notch of flaps on downwind. From there, it's whatever I need to control descent with the exception of short or soft field where I always drop full flaps on final. I keep glide speed at 80 mph until final. Crossing the threshold, I try to be around 65 mph, but to be honest, at that point, I'm not looking at the gauges.
And almost always 3-point. That's mains and tail wheel, NOT nose wheel.
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Before my first test flight, I had read a lot of techniques used by Mike Seager. So basically, I adopted the "half flaps" for landings, and seldom go full. Much has to do with the C/S prop for it's braking abilities, though. My patterns are rather tight, and I'm usually just finishing the base turn at the threshold, and still exit at the first taxiway. Perhaps this isn't what we'd call a stabilized approach... :D

L.Adamson -- RV6A/ Hartzell CS
 
Landings/Takeoffs

I can't help but think that if we had Mike post the notes he gives all his pilots on flying an RV...we'd all be better pilots. He does fly the RV "by the numbers." Living on a fairly short, fairly rough grass strip, he subjects his planes to at least one "off airport" landing every day...and has done so for many years without incident. It just might be worth the rest of us paying attention to those techniques, which include tight patterns, close airspeed control and minimum touchdown and taxi speeds. It's not a surprise that he's a smooth RV operator...and you'll land to a full stop and get a critique on every single landing. No such thing as a "touch and go" in Mike's book...
 
Geico266 said:
What techniques are you using for landing?
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Since my -9 is very light a little bit of extra speed really makes a lot of difference in how long I float.

The only difference between solo and two up is I trim for 65 MPH solo and 70 MPH w/ a passenger.

Abeam the numbers and at 90 MPH I dump in all the flaps and trim for my target speed (65/70) and keep that all the way around.

For soft fields, I add just a touch of power but still three point it (tail wheel). The idea is to keep the plane from dropping in and getting stuck in the soft field AKA mud.

Wheel landings like a bit of power as well but with the plane being so clean, I can roll right off the end of our 2300' strip if I wheel land it and hold the tail up. The -9's wing likes to fly so much that you have to be very careful when letting the tail down on wheel landings or you will find yourself flying again. Of course, brakes help slow it down but I prefer not to use them, unless I have to.

The slow speed makes for easy short field landings and you don't have to burn up your brakes.
 
Don't Lift off too much or too soon!

Some interesting techniques, but remember, most Van's aircraft, particularly -7A or -9A have a lot of elevator authority and can lift the nosewheel at speeds way to slow to fly. A high speed taxi with the nose in the air can result in a liftoff and subsequent stall before the plane is really ready to fly. I've been there, done that and have the bent prop and nosegear to prove it! The only time I begin the takeoff roll with the stick in my lap is on a rough grass strip and you have to be ready to push the nose down as soon as the nosegear lifts off, and push it down some more when the mains lift.

For normal takeoffs with plenty of relatively smooth runway, the Segar method of neutral to a certain speed and a gentle lift probably makes the most sense. I have 180 hours on my 9A and figure I'm still learning and always will be.
 
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