Do you plan on filling the external rivet holes on your RV-12?

  • Yes, looks are important and I like the solid rivet look.

    Votes: 23 27.1%

  • No, just adds weight and time to the build.

    Votes: 46 54.1%

  • Maybe, I'll have to think about it.

    Votes: 16 18.8%
  • Total voters
    85
Geico266

Geico266

Well Known Member
Anyone else think this may be a good thing? Purely cosmetic, but I think the rivets and the plane would look better with the holes filled and sanded prior top painting. It would give the plane a "solid rivet look". I don't think this would be a violation of the E-LSA thing.

Any thoughts?
 
What I do with my pop rivets is not just fill and make look like the flat revits. Because it just doesn't look good. I grind down the head a little and fill them to look nice and smooth throughout. I did this on my rudder cable fairings and a section of revits on the tip up. Looks great.
 
Filling Rivets

With an estimated 15,000 rivets required - would you ever get done. I voted NO. Everyone will still know it is a pulled rivet, so why bother.

John
 
Yes, it will!

Bill Dicus said:
Wouldn't filing down the head of a rivet weaken it? Bill
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You should never file down the head of a round head pulled rivet. Occasionally a stem will break off above the rivet head. It's OK to grind this down, but never the actual head of the rivet.
 
Cosmetics

I owned a black pop-rivet aircraft for 10 years. See avatar. From a distance it looks fine. Close up all of the rivets had an off-white centre...polish. I didn't polish it very often but the polish stayed in the rivet heads long after the shine had gone from the aeroplane!
 
Mel said:
You should never file down the head of a round head pulled rivet. Occasionally a stem will break off above the rivet head. It's OK to grind this down, but never the actual head of the rivet.
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I think you guys worry to much. It's not like the whole airplane is done with pops, just an occational one that we just can't get to. If you are too worried about it, just give that dimpled whole a little extra countersink and than touch the head to make sure it's flat and than fill it. If your really worried, than hit the fill with structual adhesive like Hysol, which is cool stuff. Oh on that subject, I will never use JB weld or should I say elmers glue, that stuff is pure junk.
 
allbee said:
...I grind down the head a little and fill them to look nice and smooth throughout.
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What Mel said.
allbee said:
I think you guys worry to much. It's not like the whole airplane is done with pops...
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They are talking about an RV-12 and the entire plane is made of pop-rivets.

As for the original question. Don't bother filling them. You already have a limited useful load and as small as each little bit of filler is, it adds to your empty weight and reduces your gross weight.

No one will ever give it a thought after the plane is painted.

To put this in prospective, there is a local RV-4 that the builder used filler to hide all the rivets. The current owner, who is not the builder, was asking about empty vs. gross weights. Apparently his empty weight is close to 1100 lbs and the plane has a simple panel and FP wood prop.
 
filler

we used fuser brand urethane sealant same stuf used in truck beds to seal corners and is easy to clean up with lacor thiner less than half tube (std 10 oz caulking tube )to do wings. and 1/3 of this wiped back off cleaning up
 
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"Simplicate and Add Lightness"

Geico266 said:
... Purely cosmetic, but I think the rivets and the plane would look better ... filled and sanded prior to painting ... I don't think this would be a violation of the E-LSA thing.
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It would look better, but as I read the LSA regs, it is a violation to do this. But regardless, unless you completely grind away the heads and have a flush finish, filling the holes will make virtually no difference to the drag produced by that big head, or to the speed potential of the aircraft (which is limited by regulation anyway), and as someone else pointed out, will subtract from the useful load of the aircraft.

Van is a smart guy (a LOT smarter than me), and has spent a lot of time thinking about things like this. For the RV-12 to be licensed as an E-LSA, it needs to conform to the factory build S-LSA example. If a person wants to customize and go fast, maybe they should consider getting an RV-9a instead.

Sorry, I really don't mean to sound like I'm lecturing here.

I've had many of the same thoughts regarding building the best, most desirable RV-12 possible, but after researching the regs with an eye toward my company beginning commercial assembly of the '-12, I can only conclude that a '-12 needs to be a '-12 with no improvements, at least until it's been licensed.

I'm currently thinking about a Rotax or O-235 powered '-9 for my personal(ized) flyer.

Tom Tyson
Rhino Aircraft
(N512RV - Reserved)
 
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I've got a ways to go before painting. I really think I've gonna do it if it doesn't interfer with the E-LSA regs.

My first thoughts on "how to" are use the lite body filler in a syrnge type thing and try to fill from the bottom up. Lete it cure out then touch it off with a fine sanding disk until the tops of the rivet shows through. To reduce weight just do the rivets you can see standing up. Take a couple of days tops.

I'll experiment on the bottom of a wing or fus and see.
 
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TT-RhinoRestorations said:
It would look better, but as I read the LSA regs, it is a violation to do this.
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I'm no expert on E-LSA, and I hope Mel is looking into this, but I can't see how "painting prep" could violate the E-LSA. Then again we are dealing with the FAA. ;)

The FAA motto is "We not happy, until you're not happy."
 
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gblwy said:
I owned a black pop-rivet aircraft for 10 years. See avatar. From a distance it looks fine. Close up all of the rivets had an off-white centre...polish. I didn't polish it very often but the polish stayed in the rivet heads long after the shine had gone from the aeroplane!
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This is exactly what I want to avoid. Even on planes I have rehabbed where it has been waxed I have spent days with a toothpick cleaning out the flush rivet heads of wax, especially on darker colors.
 
Bondo rivets

Don't know where this story came from, but many years ago someone took a Cessna to an auto body shop to have it painted. The apprentice took a D.A. to the skin and sanded off a bunch of rivets. To fix the problem the shop owner creatively made a die that was the perfect shape of the rivet. The problem of the ground off rivets was efficiently and inexpensively fixed by molding perfect little shop heads in place with his special die. I wish I was this innovative, but kind of glad I'm not.
 
N941WR said:
What Mel said.

They are talking about an RV-12 and the entire plane is made of pop-rivets.

As for the original question. Don't bother filling them. You already have a limited useful load and as small as each little bit of filler is, it adds to your empty weight and reduces your gross weight.

No one will ever give it a thought after the plane is painted.

To put this in prospective, there is a local RV-4 that the builder used filler to hide all the rivets. The current owner, who is not the builder, was asking about empty vs. gross weights. Apparently his empty weight is close to 1100 lbs and the plane has a simple panel and FP wood prop.
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Sorry, I just looked at the latest post and responded. In that case with that many pops, I would leave them, no filler. It would be expected to have the little hole in the center.
 
Filling LP4 Rivet Heads

Like some of you, I would like to fill mine, but I don't want to make it a major project. I wouldn't mind a couple of extra days during paint prep, if I thought that would do it. I'm also looking for the best product and process for the job.

As I recall, one of the Chech built SLSAs that was on display at Sebring last year had all of the heads filled. Not sure which one now, but I remember asking the sales cat what they used. He didn't know. I'll give that another try this year and report back if I get anything usefull. It sure did look a lot better to me.

Tom
 
voodooskinfetish said:
But... leaving the holes unfilled, you're like a great big flying whistle! That's a feature!
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Funny but with all the other pulled rivet aircraft in this area, the only one one that wistles is my -9 with all of its flush rivets.

Go figure.

I doubt those little holes will make any kind of whistle. Besides, if you paint it, that will go a long way towards filling/sealing the holes.

Has anyone stood by and watched Van's RV-12 fly by, did it whistle?
 
It's Not The Whistle

A whistle is not the problem. It's all those white specs, one in every riviet, that appear after a nice wash and wax. The only cure is to spend hours with a Q tip, cleaning out all of those rivet heads. I think that filling is a better alternative. Paint is not going to fill these rivet heads well enough to stop the wax build up.
 
Maybe a different Wax

Some of the new waxes are more or less clear. They likely would not leave as much of a white spot. Just a thought.

With the metal overlaps, I would think there would be wax buildup there also, so a clear type wax might help also ? ? ? ?

John Bender
Iowa
 
Well, I've done some checking and found out some stuff I thought I would share.

There is a LSA called a Kappa that fills the rivet heads prior to painting. They have used several products with mixed results. I have seen several of their planes and it is important choose a product the does not shrink.

An auto body buddy of mine (Kappa dealer and RV-12 builder) suggests using a urethane auto body seam sealer. I'm going to try an area on the tail cone section and I will let you know how it goes. He suggested using a finger to fill the heads.

I can tell you the plane will look MUCH better with the rivets filled. The Kappa is a good example, I've seen them both ways, and clearly the filled just looks better.
 
Why wax it?

There are a lot of comments in this thread about the open rivet heads accumlating wax.
Assuming your little airplane is going to be stored inside, a hanger or a trailer, maybe; and considering modern paint, I don't see a reason to wax.

It would be nice to have all flush rivets, too. But it is what it is, and I am getting to like the looks of it. It is elegant in a functional sort of way.

I am planning to have mine painted, but the heck with waxing.
Tony
 
Cherries?

Would there be anything wrong with using Cherries in an equivalent or better strength?
 
Don't lose sight of what you are building

I have followed this and a couple of other threads about modifying the rivets on a 12. I am confused by the logic. If you don't like pop rivets, why are you building an RV-12? The RV-9 is a great all round airplane and uses solid rivets. If this is the look you are seeking, build one. The 12 is not going to be a speed demon, nor do I think it is a plane you want to leave parked out on the ramp all year long. The pop rivets are fast, and almost fool proof to install. ( I have drilled out a few proving that nothing is fool proof) With removable wings you can put it in your garage during the winter so why worry that they might leak a bit? I never once waxed my Cherokee Warrior in the 10 years I owned it so I am not concerned about wax build up. What I do care about is ease of construction, reasonable operating costs, and a plane that is fun to fly. That is why I am building a 12.
 
Proseal

After reading all these post I am suprised that that there hasn't been a suggestion to use proseal. I have use it on several of my pulled rivets on several planes that I have repaired. A quick wipe with some MEK and....WOW! Very nice and very quick. Dont get too carried away. You just want to fill in the void around the rivet and center. After a few dozen you will be able to do a entire plane in about a half a day. You will just have enough to keep the paint from "bridging" and IMHO it will look great. It is flexible enough that it wont "pop" out. As always this is my view on things.
 
Mark Henderson said:
I have followed this and a couple of other threads about modifying the rivets on a 12.
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Some people are building a -12 becuase they can only fly as sport pilots. There are many planes built with pop rivets that fill the heads before painting.

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I have come up with some calculations on weight addition using Super Fill. 1.2 ounces for the entire plane. Not a bad modification for the benifit of not having little holes all over the plane. This "mod" is considered "paint prep" and while not endorsed by Vans is acceptable, IMHO.
 
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