RickWoodall

Well Known Member
I found the following suggested list in the archives from over a year ago. I want to order all the supplies at once. Just wondered if there are new or better products to sub in or if some of the experienced folks think this is as good a list as there is. Ideally getting a box full of the best products and all the products I will need is the goal. I hate having to order one or two more things..



1 quart West Systems 105 Epoxy
1 pint of 206 hardener
Set of metered pumps (MANDATORY) After getting the pumps, use a Sharpie and mark the halfway point on the stroke of the pumps for smaller quantity use.
Small container of 410 micro filler
1" Wide glass tape 10 yrd pack (if you are going to glass in the tail stuff)
.007 thickness
2" Wide glass tape .007 3yrd pack
3" Wide glass tape .007 2-3yrd packs
Mixing cups

Box of popcicle sticks from craft store

Stuff from the Auto body supply place

1 Quart Rage auto body filler
1 Quart Evercoat 416 metal glaze. (great for glass work so don't worry about the "metal" label)
Several small squeegees.

I also have 6 oz bottles of 5 minute and 30 minute epoxy from the hobby shop for small and quick jobs


Thanks for any inputs.
 
Rick

Your list appears fairly complete. I have found it useful to also stock 205 hardener as it sets up considerably faster than 206. When using 206, I allow it to cure for 8 hours or more....usually overnight. That is fine for most jobs but when you want to do something faster, 205 will set up in a matter of several hours and that is convenient when you want to accomplish 2 or more steps on the same project during the course of a day.

Also, a supply of disposable 1" "chip" brushes are very handy to wet your cloth with. I get em by the box at Harbor Freight.

The best thing I can say about fiberglass work is ....if you screw it up...you can do it over and over again til you get it right.

Have fun!
 
Fiberglass Supplies

I would also recommend the West Systems application and mixing tools (squeegee, plastic mixing sticks). Epoxy pops right off after cure for reuse and they aren't expensive.

Some cotton flocking (1/2 lb or so) is also good as a thickener.

Don't forget that cloth and tape comes in different weaves. Tape usually comes in a straight weave ('regular tape') and a bias weave ('biaxial'). My preference for small curved projects is biaxial-it's woven on the bias and wraps better around curved surfaces.

I've also used empty dispenser syringes for small batches.

Good sources are www.boatbuildercentral.com and www.westmarine.com

Regards,
Mike
 
dont forget peel-ply and a rotary cutter.

Not sure why you are limiting yourself to glass tapes - why not a sheet so you can cut whatever size piece you need?

erich
 
Somebody will probably yell at me, but I think your list will make you hate glass work.

West ratio is 5-1. A quart of resin and a pint of hardener is rather unbalanced. A quart probably isn't enough anyway.

Cheap in-the-can pumps suck....literally. When you suck an air bubble and it splats in your cup, you know the ratio is drifting. There is no way to correct it. Pumps also lose prime so the first push or two gets you a partial portion. And they drip all over your bench. Sure, West System seems to have a lot of ratio leeway. However, inaccurate ratios mean that even if your mix cures, it still may not meet mechanical spec, and you may have trouble with subsequent coatings (you have unreacted component).

The right way to get an accurate ratio every time is to mix by weight. With a gram scale you can mix 10 to 1000 grams of resin and never miss, and you can do it with any epoxy system ratio. Get two cheap condiment bottles (ketchup and mustard, red and yellow) for your resin and hardener. Note the cup weight. If your 3oz cup weighs 2.2 grams and the ratio is 5-1 (West), put the cup on the scale, squirt in resin 'til the scale reads 52.2, then squirt hardener until it reads 62.2. Whoops, you were not careful and dropped in 12 grams of hardener? No problem, ratio is 5-1 so add 10 more grams of resin. Perfect, every time.

Tape has it's uses, but not many. It has a selvage edge (makes a raised line in your layup). Plain weave tape won't drape around compound curves and bias tape pulls into narrower strips when you handle it. Buy a few yards of 8.9oz 8-harness satin cloth (Wicks or Spruce, both #7781) and a pizza cutter. You can lay a hemisphere over a bowling ball.

You don't want popcicle sticks; too narrow. You want tongue depressors.

I use Rage for a few things, mostly fairing plywood or over an auto body panel on a cheap used car. It is also pretty good for quick jigs and fixtures. I can't imagine why you would build an epoxy layup and coat it with a polyester product. Sure, it will probably work long term. Microbubbles and epoxy over epoxy always works.

You need the chip brushes Rick mentioned. Flox too, cabosil thickener is optional. Also buy some 4-mil plastic sheet, a box of disposable gloves, and at least a cheap dust mask (a 3M respirator is better). For sure buy some drywall filter bags for your shop vac.
 
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Some Notes on Fillers...

A couple of additional comments regarding fillers...

Fillers are available with different properties (adhesive/structural vs. smoothing/fairing). The West Systems website (www.westsystem.com) provides the following summary regarding their products:

"ADHESIVE FILLERS

403 Microfibers
403 Microfibers, a fine fiber blend, is used as a thickening additive with resin/hardener to create a multi-purpose adhesive, especially for bonding wood. Epoxy thickened with microfibers has good gap-filling qualities while retaining excellent wetting/penetrating capability. Color: off-white.

404 High-Density Filler
404 High-Density filler is a thickening additive developed for maximum physical properties in hardware bonding where high-cyclic loads are anticipated. It can also be used for filleting and gap filling where maximum strength is necessary. Color: off-white.

405 Filleting Blend
This strong, wood-toned filler is good for use in glue joints and fillets on naturally finished wood. It mixes easily with epoxy and lets you create fillets that are smooth and require little sanding. Its color is a consistent brown, so 405 can be used to modify the shade of other WEST SYSTEM fillers.

406 Colloidal Silica
406 Colloidal Silica is a thickening additive used to control the viscosity of the epoxy and prevent epoxy runoff in vertical and overhead joints. 406 is a very strong filler that creates a smooth mixture, ideal for general bonding and filleting. It is also our most versatile filler. Often used in combination with other fillers, it can be used to improve the improve strength, abrasion resistance, and consistency of fairing compounds, resulting in a tougher, smoother surface. Color: off-white.

FAIRING FILLERS

407 Low-Density Filler
407 Low-Density filler is a blended microballoon-based filler used to make fairing putties that are easy to sand or carve. Reasonably strong on a strength-to-weight basis. Cures to a dark red/brown color.

410 MicrolightTM
410 MicrolightTM is the ideal low-density filler for creating a light, easily-worked fairing compound especially suited for fairing large areas. Microlight mixes with greater ease than 407 Low-Density filler or microballoons and is approximately 30% easier to sand. It feathers to a fine edge and is also more economical for large fairing jobs. Not recommended under dark paint or other surfaces subject to high temperatures. Cures to a tan color."


From this info, you can see that the filler you've listed (West Systems 410 Microlight Filler) is not recommended under dark paint. This may or may not be a factor for you. It's also not recommended on surfaces subjected to high temperatures (i.e. cowling).

West Systems 407 Filler is a stronger filler-also harder to sand. This may be a better choice depending on paint color/where greater strength and higher temps may be involved.

I've had good results using the West Systems products but there are many good options. I'd recommend that you check out the manufacturers website if you're just starting to work with epoxy. Most companies will provide free booklets, product recommendations, etc. to help you make the most informed selection.

Also agree with Erich's comments regarding cloth, peel-ply and the rotary cutter. A yard or two of 6oz glass will do to start. See other threads for discussion of peel-ply.

Dan's comments regarding quantity depends on the project; if you're doing something small, a quart may be enough. Having said that, epoxy has a long shelf life so there's no disadvantage to buying a larger quantity.

Regarding pumps: I've had good luck with West System pumps for smaller projects. Having said that, you need to 'prime' the pump when you start to get any bubbles out and ensure you're getting a full shot. That does waste a small quantity of product. You'll also suck in some air at the bottom of the can and will end up pouring the last of the product without the pump. Pumps also drip some, but I've also had drips when pouring from the can... epoxy is a messy job so I just cover my bench with plastic (duct tape at the corners), put down drop cloths and deal with it.

I agree with Dan that the weight method is a consistent way to get the correct ratio. If you're doing a larger project or a series of structural layups it's a good way to go.

Regards,
Mike
 
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Mostly unfounded

Dan and others,

I certainly don't have all the answers but over 30 years experience with various composites. The list was one I put together.

The WS metered pumps work fine. Make sure there is hole in the top of the can so it can vent properly for pumping. Weight measuring is probably the most accurate but a real pain and leads to much waste.

The pumps will lose prime but if you pump them slowly you can get them working fine without losing any product.

I'm not sure what people are doing with the epoxy:eek: I did all the glass work on my plane, more than most would do, my neighbors plane and a couple of model airplane projects with one quart. I think most people over mix, and that is why I mark the pumps for one half pump.

WS is very forgiving for inaccurate ratios. That is why I think it excellent for RV builders who may have little to no experience with fiberglass work.

Regarding the glass tapes, those from www.cstsales.com are excellent. They don't have the heavy edge binding that you might see from boat shop type glass tapes. They conform very well and bend around the RV windscreens with out problems. They are reasonably priced and eliminate the need to try and cut strip from cloth stock.

If you are not into glass work, don't even try to getting into the cutting game. You'll have a mess, wasted product and a very bad attitude after trying this.

Regarding Rage and other fillers. My friend that guided me on my painting has been doing big buck custom cars, trucks, trailers etc.... uses Rage on these projects. One of my airpark neighbors builds very high dollar custom cars. His hired gun painter and finisher uses Rage and Evercoat 416 as a filler. These are show winning vehicles. Obviously you don't use huge buildups but using to fill and feather is completely appropriate. It is lighter and stronger than some of the epoxy filler mixes. Just because it uses epoxy doesn't mean it is always the best.

I also use Evercoat 416 Metal Glaze as a feather filler. Both Evercoat and Rage are catalyzed fillers and don't shrink after curing. They sand well and are very strong.

Popcicle sticks work fine for most of the jobs. Tongue depressors work good for the larger jobs.

This list was put together to minimize the cost and simplify the process for most RVers. There are many ways to accomplish the same thing. I prefer to work smarter, not harder.




Somebody will probably yell at me, but I think your list will make you hate glass work.

West ratio is 5-1. A quart of resin and a pint of hardener is rather unbalanced. A quart probably isn't enough anyway.


Cheap in-the-can pumps suck....literally. When you suck an air bubble and it splats in your cup, you know the ratio is drifting. There is no way to correct it. Pumps also lose prime so the first push or two gets you a partial portion. And they drip all over your bench. Sure, West System seems to have a lot of ratio leeway. However, inaccurate ratios mean that even if your mix cures, it still may not meet mechanical spec, and you may have trouble with subsequent coatings (you have unreacted component).

The right way to get an accurate ratio every time is to mix by weight. With a gram scale you can mix 10 to 1000 grams of resin and never miss, and you can do it with any epoxy system ratio. Get two cheap condiment bottles (ketchup and mustard, red and yellow) for your resin and hardener. Note the cup weight. If your 3oz cup weighs 2.2 grams and the ratio is 5-1 (West), put the cup on the scale, squirt in resin 'til the scale reads 52.2, then squirt hardener until it reads 62.2. Whoops, you were not careful and dropped in 12 grams of hardener? No problem, ratio is 5-1 so add 10 more grams of resin. Perfect, every time.

Tape has it's uses, but not many. It has a selvage edge (makes a raised line in your layup). Plain weave tape won't drape around compound curves and bias tape pulls into narrower strips when you handle it. Buy a few yards of 9.8 8-harness satin cloth (Wicks or Spruce) and a pizza cutter. You can lay a hemisphere over a bowling ball.

You don't want popcicle sticks; too narrow. You want tongue depressors.

I use Rage for a few things, mostly fairing plywood or over an auto body panel on a cheap used car. It is also pretty good for quick jigs and fixtures. I can't imagine why you would build an epoxy layup and coat it with a polyester product. Sure, it will probably work long term. Microbubbles and epoxy over epoxy always works.

You need the chip brushes Rick mentioned. Flox too, cabosil thickener is optional. Also buy some 4-mil plastic sheet, a box of disposable gloves, and at least a cheap dust mask (a 3M respirator is better). For sure buy some drywall filter bags for your shop vac.
 
Feedback

Thanks Darwin. I appreciated the list in the archives. I was happy to get some different opininions, that was the whole reason for the thread. I have never done any glass work, and with so much to learn a little feedback and different ideas helps me on the learning. Thanks all for the info. Darwin, thanks for the old and follow up posts. It all shortens my learning curve. Once i am done this plane i might just be a pretty smart and handy person.:cool:
 
aluminum foil and tape

Don't forget a roll of aluminum foil for doing the windshield fairing layup. Wet out the narrow strips of glass cloth on top of strips of foil. Pick up the 2 foot long sandwich and place it over the intersection. Peel the foil away while working the glass into place with a brush. Do the other side. Repeat with wider strips over the previous layup.
Use 3M mylar packing tape anyplace you don't want eopxy to stick. Available at Wal-Mart or Staples.

Steve
 
WS Pumps work well

While measuring by weight is certainly the gold standard, I've found the West Systems pumps to be extremely reliable. And yes, that rotary cutter is the only way to go.
I also purchased a container of the WS 403 microfibers, and use it a fair amount for bonding and structural filleting. (I'm one of those who needed major surgery on the wingtips to get them to line up correctly.)
 
<<Weight measuring is probably the most accurate but a real pain and leads to much waste>>

Reality check. No pain, zero waste, perfect accuracy every time with any resin ratio, including paste systems. I use an old balance beam gram scale, but you can go high-tech with an electronic gram scale as low for $10. Here's a nice example for $18:

http://www.oldwillknottscales.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=98

A set of West pumps costs $12, and I guarantee you'll waste epoxy with them. Good epoxy pumps cost serious money.

<<The pumps will lose prime but if you pump them slowly you can get them working fine without losing any product.>>

You catch the air bubble mess and pour it back in the can? <g>

<<don't even try to getting into the cutting game>>

....or learn a new skill.

<<His hired gun painter and finisher uses Rage and Evercoat 416 as a filler.>>

Polyester fillers are fast and cheap. The body shop industry revolves around production economics, so few auto body guys have ever worked with anything else.

<<I prefer to work smarter, not harder.>>

Yeah, that's me, worn out and stupid.
 
Fun With Fiberglass

FWIW, I've been working with 'glass since the mid 1960's using both polyester and epoxy resins. Back then we didn't have or use either pumps or scales-just dumped the resin and hardener into a graduated container, stirred it up and started using it. You know what? It works just fine. No worries, except for the time I used polyester resin on a styrofoam mold (age 12)...I won't do that again!

Since then, I've become a bit more particular. I own both the West Systems pumps and a scale. Hmmm...after all this excitement I may need a three-sided coin: should I use the pumps, use the scale, or use the pumps to squirt the epoxy into the container on the scale? ;)

Seriously, for the newbies out there, epoxies like West Systems 105 are very tolerant of slight variations in the mix of resin and hardener. Mixing by volume or weight are acceptable methods to get the correct ratio of hardener to resin. If your mix is off slightly, don't panic. It will affect how rapidly the mix will harden. So will air temp, etc. That's why West Systems offers different hardeners for use under different conditions.

I recommend you research the products you plan to use, decide on pump vs scale, etc., buy your materials and go for it. The list in this thread is a great place to start. Put on some old clothes, safety gear, and try some practice projects before you tackle your RV, using both flat and curved surfaces.

Instructional videos and Sportair workshops are also available to help you out. There are also lots of composite builders out there who will be happy to convert you to the dark side, so don't be afraid to ask for a quick lesson.

Most of all, have fun!

Regards,
Mike