B

bobnoffs

Well Known Member
hi all,
can anyone throw out a ballpark number for square yds. of cloth needed to do the canopy layup?
thanks in advance
 
bobnoffs said:
hi all,
can anyone throw out a ballpark number for square yds. of cloth needed to do the canopy layup?
thanks in advance
Click to expand...

I saw a post some time ago that a couple of yards (2), and you'd have plenty left over. I'm at this same point in my build....kind of dreading this part because of the importance of how the finished plane will look if you screw it up.

Hey....it's not all bad as I hung my engine on today.....starting to look like an air plane��
 
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The fiberglassing of the canopy is really not that difficult - like the fuel tank, it just seems intimidating until you get working on it. Follow Van's plans/procedures. Keep the saturated plies thin and don't pile on excessive epoxy. Use masking tape and gloves to best manage the mess. As noted previously, you will only need a yard or two of material. If I were to do it again, I would add a black coloring agent to the plies so that the visible interior portion of the layup was black. Enjoy!
 
I tried the black colorant. Looked solid black as a liquid but dried splotchy gray.. I used the peel-and-stick carbon fiber vinyl on my panel, so I just cut matching pieces to cover that exposed layup from the inside of the bubble. looks great!
 
I got the epoxy black dye, and it worked perfectly. From the inside it appears beautiful gloss black I used it all the way to finish, now I have a nice flat black fiberglass on the outside. Highly recommended.
 
Thanks for the pep talk guys....guess it's like the "longron bending". Turned out to be simple....I hope😳
 
If you use the black dye, don't use black electrical tape. It is much easier when sanding if there is a contrast.
 
Don,
Do you know what brand of dye you used that worked great?

Bill,
What kind did you use that came out gray?

Thanks,
 
My first home built was a WAR FW-190. It had a wood box fuselage with fiber glass over it to give it the proper shape. I was pretty worried about how it would turn out, but I quickly found out how forgiving the process is. Micro balloon slurry fixes a lot!

It's just messy, and can cause an acquired allergy to the epoxy.
 
Section 5 of the plans recommends 3 yards. It was too much. I agree 2 would be enough. You do have to use some fiberglass cloth later in the build, but not much. West Systems Epoxy highly recommended. We used the black dye sold be Ace Hardware and it worked great.
 
Watch Vans Video.

bobnoffs said:
hi all,
can anyone throw out a ballpark number for square yds. of cloth needed to do the canopy layup?
thanks in advance
Click to expand...

Bob, some basics. I assume the instructions say what radius or radii you will need for this fairing? If not, and your plexi is mounted, then mark off stations around the area to be faired. Then at each station determine what radius makes it look good. Cut out a pattern and mark it, so you can match that radius to each particular zone. Then take each zone and measure the thickest area to be filled. Using .012" per layer, calculate what number of layers and widths it will take to fill out to your radius. That will now tell you what you will need for glass. Double it as a minimum.

Get your black additive from good composite supplier that has shown it to be compatible. It is a thick paste - so stir and scrape the bottom to ensure it is mixed well.

The composites book say weigh the cloth and mix (at least) and equal weight of epoxy. Don't mix too much. I assisted a friend on his 10 and he had everything laid out to start with some back up glass strips. It took us 4.5 hours with no resting. Both were busy. Be sure to get a 1/2" dia roller and keep it in an acetone bath between uses. Otherwise it will stick and pull up the layers.

You will have to mix 5-8 batches of epoxy as even the slow harder might set too fast for you. Very temperature dependent. Rule of thumb - for every 18F increase the pot life drops 1/2. 90 degrees will give a very short pot life.

Last - find and watch Vans RV14 glassing video - it will help greatly to give you a feel for this process. There is more preparation than one thinks. A lot more.
 
What would I do differently next time?

Hey Bob and Ric,
I was (still am) as Fiberglass (ahem "Fiberglass Reinforced Plastic") newbie.
Here's what I learned with my -12 Canopy to Cowl transition...

1 - Do not fear, it's not that hard. Actually kind of fun one you get the hang of it and see it start to take shape.
2-There are very few mistakes that cannot be fixed with sanding and some "do over".
3- Pay close attention to the "right/leftness" of the paper patterns.
4- Get some large blank paper and make a paper or cardboard copy of each successive pattern piece before or at the same time you cut each piece of fabric. Why? So you can cut out another piece after a helpful family member moves your stuff and the carefully cut pieces get stretched out of shape.
5- Follow Van' instructions
6- There are some good EAA videos also. I used one of their techniques where you put the cut piece on a sheet of plastic film, wet it with mixed resin, lay another sheet of film on top, and then squeezee out the excess. Trim the excess film and resin away from your work, then carefully lift the top film sheet while separating your piece with a slightly wet brush, then lay your work in place on the canopy/cowl and lift the other layer of film off the top of it. Makes a nice clean layup without excess resin to form runs. (think I've described this correctly, watch the video or maybe someone else can explain better).
7- West Systems worked well for me. No weighing, perfect mixing. Not cheap but not that pricey either considering the convenience and speed and the overall value of your project.
8- I found a fiber tube that drawings came in is about the right diameter to use for sanding the concave curves.
9- Use good quality and thick duct tape that will stay pliable and release from the fuse skin. Cheap stuff is thin, dries out, cracks, and leaves residue on the fuse.
10- Apply strips of the duct tape well out beyond the edges of your work to avoid accidental sanding of the fuse skin (sad lesson for me).
All I can think of. Other?s will chime in I hope with more ideas and lessons learned.
Good Luck and have fun!
 
I made a mistake, be sure and cover the panel before slopping on the epoxy. In my case it ran down the inside making a mess.
 
repairs

I "finished" the plane in July 2013 (started flying at least) and recently repaired some fiberglass separation on the canopy. Picture the edge where the plex ends and the fiberglass begins on the curve from the front to the sides. Okay

Both sides, in essentially the same area, about six inches long, the fiberglass pulled away from the Plexiglas surface. I cleaned it up, brushed two applications of epoxy into the existing separation which was about 1/16th gap. Let this set, sanded, and used a light filler to finish.

I have been watching since the repair to see if the stress in this area is re leaved and the repair will hold. On the right side there is a little more separation showing as the fiberglass terminates at the cowl metal skirt. I am still watching this area before I fill it or use epoxy because it is so small at this point.

My point.....where the fiberglass bonds to the plexiglass take time to prepare well as this area has some stress especially in the open position and the inherent flexing. Good luck, research like you are doing, and take your time.
 
thanks for all the tips. got to work a couple days and i have enough epoxy / flox to do the foam blocks. then i expect my cloth will be here by the timew i am ready for it.and i will use the black dye. AND WHITE ELECTRICAL TAPE!
 
bobnoffs said:
thanks for all the tips. got to work a couple days and i have enough epoxy / flox to do the foam blocks. then i expect my cloth will be here by the timew i am ready for it.and i will use the black dye. AND WHITE ELECTRICAL TAPE!
Click to expand...

Where did you purchase your cloth from?....and type?
 
DaveWelch said:
Hey Bob and Ric,
I was (still am) as Fiberglass (ahem "Fiberglass Reinforced Plastic") newbie.
Here's what I learned with my -12 Canopy to Cowl transition...

1 - Do not fear, it's not that hard. Actually kind of fun one you get the hang of it and see it start to take shape.
2-There are very few mistakes that cannot be fixed with sanding and some "do over".
3- Pay close attention to the "right/leftness" of the paper patterns.
4- Get some large blank paper and make a paper or cardboard copy of each successive pattern piece before or at the same time you cut each piece of fabric. Why? So you can cut out another piece after a helpful family member moves your stuff and the carefully cut pieces get stretched out of shape.
5- Follow Van' instructions
6- There are some good EAA videos also. I used one of their techniques where you put the cut piece on a sheet of plastic film, wet it with mixed resin, lay another sheet of film on top, and then squeezee out the excess. Trim the excess film and resin away from your work, then carefully lift the top film sheet while separating your piece with a slightly wet brush, then lay your work in place on the canopy/cowl and lift the other layer of film off the top of it. Makes a nice clean layup without excess resin to form runs. (think I've described this correctly, watch the video or maybe someone else can explain better).
7- West Systems worked well for me. No weighing, perfect mixing. Not cheap but not that pricey either considering the convenience and speed and the overall value of your project.
8- I found a fiber tube that drawings came in is about the right diameter to use for sanding the concave curves.
9- Use good quality and thick duct tape that will stay pliable and release from the fuse skin. Cheap stuff is thin, dries out, cracks, and leaves residue on the fuse.
10- Apply strips of the duct tape well out beyond the edges of your work to avoid accidental sanding of the fuse skin (sad lesson for me).
All I can think of. Other?s will chime in I hope with more ideas and lessons learned.
Good Luck and have fun!
Click to expand...

Dave....thanks for the tips. Now that I'm digging into this, I'm not as worried😎
 
funflying said:
I "finished" the plane in July 2013 (started flying at least) and recently repaired some fiberglass separation on the canopy. Picture the edge where the plex ends and the fiberglass begins on the curve from the front to the sides. Okay

Both sides, in essentially the same area, about six inches long, the fiberglass pulled away from the Plexiglas surface. I cleaned it up, brushed two applications of epoxy into the existing separation which was about 1/16th gap. Let this set, sanded, and used a light filler to finish.

I have been watching since the repair to see if the stress in this area is re leaved and the repair will hold. On the right side there is a little more separation showing as the fiberglass terminates at the cowl metal skirt. I am still watching this area before I fill it or use epoxy because it is so small at this point.

My point.....where the fiberglass bonds to the plexiglass take time to prepare well as this area has some stress especially in the open position and the inherent flexing. Good luck, research like you are doing, and take your time.
Click to expand...

This is interesting. West Systems Tech (and per research by my builder friend) said that 105 does not stick to plexiglass very well. They recommend a procedure using G-Flex. My friend tested the techniques and indeed the g-flex, with flame polishing, gave a very strong bond. I just ordered some for my 7 and plan (with his expert help) to use it as an adhesion layer then use 105 for the full layup.

Although the weak bond strength is a fact, with thousands of RV's flying and having read VAF for years, it is interesting that it is not a widespread issue or possibly any issue at all.
 
"One more thing" = Peel Ply

Thanks for the heads up about de-bonding, I'll watch for it.

One more "lesson learned" I forgot to mention earlier: #14(?) When you're done layering for the day, put some "Peel Ply" aka Dacron cloth over your work, "rub it in" gently so as not to shift any layers. Actually just gently stroke the surface until the Dacron looks wet. Then GO AWAY. Do not be tempted to peek. Next morning rip it off slowly and VIOLA, you've got a smooth but textured surface ready to resume layering.
 
BillL said:
This is interesting. West Systems Tech (and per research by my builder friend) said that 105 does not stick to plexiglass very well. They recommend a procedure using G-Flex. My friend tested the techniques and indeed the g-flex, with flame polishing, gave a very strong bond. I just ordered some for my 7 and plan (with his expert help) to use it as an adhesion layer then use 105 for the full layup.

Although the weak bond strength is a fact, with thousands of RV's flying and having read VAF for years, it is interesting that it is not a widespread issue or possibly any issue at all.
Click to expand...

Bond quality is highly dependent on surface preparation.
A lot of people that think they have sanded enough, haven't.
Look very closely... look between the sanding scratches.... there should be no amount of gloss anywhere... not even little bits.
To be safe, when you think you have done it enough... sand it once more. And sand in random directions so that the scratches go multiple directions.
 
DaveWelch said:
Thanks for the heads up about de-bonding, I'll watch for it.

One more "lesson learned" I forgot to mention earlier: #14(?) When you're done layering for the day, put some "Peel Ply" aka Dacron cloth over your work, "rub it in" gently so as not to shift any layers. Actually just gently stroke the surface until the Dacron looks wet. Then GO AWAY. Do not be tempted to peek. Next morning rip it off slowly and VIOLA, you've got a smooth but textured surface ready to resume layering.
Click to expand...

Dave,

Where is "peel ply" purchased?
 
Peel Ply aka Dacron cloth

If you have a buddy that has recovered a plane with fabric, I'm told that's probably the stuff.
If you order from Spruce and they ask how you want it packed and shipped, tell them just to fold it up and put in the largest envelope or smallest box possible. Any wrinkles will be no worry for your purpose. I on the other hand, chose to have my 3 yards shipped on a large spool, cleverly thinking "dam the shipping cost, no wrinkles for me!". Then I saw the shipping cost.
 
Peel ply one more time

BTW, I was talking about having gotten mine in the form of a wide bolt of fabric.
At the time, I didn't know that it is available as a wide strip on a roll. If I ever run out I'll order it that way next time.
 
Canopy Videos

I've been doing some builder assistance lately and I've seen several different ways to join various canopies to their frame. Specifically, I've been working with Stoney Ware on his RV-14. He did an incredible job on his canopy by watching these videos. http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLsHxidYW7eS2bmEfPh-zuZCXn5TXngVlY

All of the RV models require some fiberglass work to join the canopy to the airframe. These videos are the best I've seen to illustrate the process. They're not intended for the RV-12 builders, but you can still glean some helpful tips.

Cheers,

Dennis
 
Thanks for the thread folks. Getting close to this part of the build (actually skipped the canopy to get it on the gear). It doesn't seem so daunting.
 
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