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Geico266

Geico266

Well Known Member
Is being a ferry pilot for a friend "illegal"?

Our local Saturday morning hanger flying crew came up with a delmea for me. A friend bought an RV-9A in Washington state and asked me to ferry the plane back to NE. What is the problem with that? Well, as it turnes out a few of the guys thinks it is illegal (against regs) to do that.

The scenario is the buyer pay expenses and I get no money for my time. It seems simple enough. I'm not doing this as a career, not advertising this service. It's a one time deal. What is wrong with that?

Why is it if it is fun it is against FAA regs? :mad:
 
Some believe logging flight time is compensation. I say do it and do it quietly. Or pay for half the gas. And delete this thread immediately.
 
TSwezey said:
Some believe logging flight time is compensation. I say do it and do it quietly. Or pay for half the gas. And delete this thread immediately.
Click to expand...

:D:D:D

If I don't log the time is that good enough? I certainly don't need more hours, I mean when I look at my log book it makes me feel old! ;)
 
Larry,
I don't think there is anything illegal about ferrying the plane. You cannot carry passengers for compensation. Additionally, you cannot get paid for the flight unless you have a commercial license. As far as I know, those would be the only restrictions.

$.02 worth
 
No compensation

My 2 cents....If you are not being compensated (ie: paid) then I say go for it.

You might consider buying all the fuel and then he "loses" a bet on the Superbowl if you're worried about the money trail. (I didn't just say that did I)

Quite frankly, (sorry Frank) I see no difference in a friend letting you use his plane on a Saturday afternoon to go over for a $100 hamburger because yours is in the shop. This is just a longer trip.

I would suggest your friend lists you as insured on his policy. (oh yes...the little details).

*************************************************

I may be missing something here but what an opportunity for 2 pilots.....

Listen up!!! I have a better suggestion. Since he just bought the plane, why don't you BOTH GO. There would not be 1 iota of inappropriateness and he will get a great experience, plane time, and by the time you land he will be ready to go it solo. It will make one or both a better pilot since you have mountains to deal with. Also, it will satisfy time in an RV for insurance purposes..or should. I can't think of a better way for 2 friends to spend some of the best time of their lives together. Make it fun and go out a day before and paint the town red. Think LIVE LARGE.
 
Not Legal

Hate to be the wet blanket, but you can't fly for free as a private pilot. If there are any expenses associated with flying (gas, oil, parking fees, etc.), and if someone pays you for those expenses, that's "compensation."

Part 61-113 says: (a) Except as provided in paragraphs (b) through (g) of this section, no person who holds a private pilot certificate may act as pilot in command of an aircraft that is carrying passengers or property for compensation or hire; nor may that person, for compensation or hire, act as pilot in command of an aircraft.

If you had a passenger, that person could pay for part of your expenses:

"(c) A private pilot may not pay less than the pro rata share of the operating expenses of a flight with passengers, provided the expenses involve only fuel, oil, airport expenditures, or rental fees."

The only way you could fly for free is if there are no actual expenses. So if you take off with a full bag of gas, and you don't need to buy any along the way, then there are no expenses.

So just be careful. The FAA does do ramp checks from time to time, and if have a fish story, things could get unpleasant. If it were me, I'd pay for the gas just to be on the safe side. My ticket is worth more to me than the couple of hundred bucks I might get doing the job.

An even better solution is to go get your commercial license.

-Martin
402BD
 
No passengers on board. No passengers or property for compensation or hire, Larry is not getting any compensation for flying the airplane. The owner is paying the expenses, he is not paying Larry. No different than me loaning my airplane to a friend.

MartinPred said:
Hate to be the wet blanket, but you can't fly for free as a private pilot. If there are any expenses associated with flying (gas, oil, parking fees, etc.), and if someone pays you for those expenses, that's "compensation."

Part 61-113 says: (a) Except as provided in paragraphs (b) through (g) of this section, no person who holds a private pilot certificate may act as pilot in command of an aircraft that is carrying passengers or property for compensation or hire; nor may that person, for compensation or hire, act as pilot in command of an aircraft.

If you had a passenger, that person could pay for part of your expenses:

"(c) A private pilot may not pay less than the pro rata share of the operating expenses of a flight with passengers, provided the expenses involve only fuel, oil, airport expenditures, or rental fees."

The only way you could fly for free is if there are no actual expenses. So if you take off with a full bag of gas, and you don't need to buy any along the way, then there are no expenses.

So just be careful. The FAA does do ramp checks from time to time, and if have a fish story, things could get unpleasant. If it were me, I'd pay for the gas just to be on the safe side. My ticket is worth more to me than the couple of hundred bucks I might get doing the job.

An even better solution is to go get your commercial license.

-Martin
402BD
Click to expand...
 
so let me get this right, a private pilot is moving an aircraft for a friend. ok and by the regs he can not be compensated for this. ok
there is nothing that says my buddy cant fly my plane and if he completes the flight for me great. I think I would (If I were the flying friend) just use my own credit card for fuel ect. and if my buddy wanted/insisted on me having a "gift" afterwards who is to stop him.
Yes I agree letter of the law.......but seriously who is going to go back after the fact if its just a one time deal. And for that matter no one but the two parties involved need to be privy to that info.
Im no lawer but if I (private pilot ferry guy) flew the plane and paid for the expenses (100% of the flight) Id use a credit card of course for traceability. And then my "friend" gave me whatever he felt he wanted to give me in cash. So long as its under 10000 it can be a gift to whoever he likes so. Take me to court if you like but I dont see any way to prove what happend here except that I flew a plane and paid for expenses. And a good friend of mine gave me a gift for my birthday.
Now that silly ole comercial ticket sure makes this all easyer doesnt it. :)
 
Only one way to know.

Call the FSDO where you live. As them, then write down the date & time you called, and the name of the person you spoke to. 99% of the time, they will tell you to go for it. The one exception, that comes up every now and then, is if you are a private pilot with low hours, and you are on a career path and building hours specifically to get a rating, they might say your're receiving "compensation" in the form of logging hours in lieu of paying to rent a plane. This is the only objection I've ever heard of from a FSDO. Remember, the FSDO where you live is the one who would complain, so ask them.
 
Part 61-113 says: (a) Except as provided in paragraphs (b) through (g) of this section, no person who holds a private pilot certificate may act as pilot in command of an aircraft that is carrying passengers or property for compensation or hire; nor may that person, for compensation or hire, act as pilot in command of an aircraft.

To be more clear:

"(c) A private pilot may not pay less than the pro rata share of the operating expenses of a flight with passengers, provided the expenses involve only fuel, oil, airport expenditures, or rental fees."

David is correct, this is not a flight carrying property or passengers. A private pilot may do it. Make sure the insurance company is aware and fine and have a safe flight. Every word in a regulation or law for that matter has meaning, is important and you have to read the section as a whole.
 
Yes, as stated it is not legal

No, being ferry pilot for a friend is not illegal. But its the paying of flight expenses that make this proposal problematic.

The FAA has very clear for a long time that passengers can share equally in expenses (totally forget ANY payment to you - FLIGHT EXPENSES). Anything beyond that sharing is "compensation" for a private pilot and you need to be a commercial pilot WITH a current second class medical to do what you said. And they will zealously enforce it (if they discover it - they won't unless something goes wrong to cause an investigation). If he went with you and paid for it all still (assuming your PIC), its still considered compensation because it was not equal sharing. I think we all know it happens, but your at risk of enforcement and these are the rules.

If he went with you and logged all the time (ie act as PIC - assuming he could) and paid for everything its not a problem - he is PIC (even if your on the controls). If you have to be PIC for some reason (say insurance TIT) - then pay your half or all as appropriate to avoid enforcement. I would look for something to offset my expenses - probably do something like make a bet on total flight time :D

Good luck.


Geico266 said:
Is being a ferry pilot for a friend "illegal"?

Our local Saturday morning hanger flying crew came up with a delmea for me. A friend bought an RV-9A in Washington state and asked me to ferry the plane back to NE. What is the problem with that? Well, as it turnes out a few of the guys thinks it is illegal (against regs) to do that.

The scenario is the buyer pay expenses and I get no money for my time. It seems simple enough. I'm not doing this as a career, not advertising this service. It's a one time deal. What is wrong with that?

Why is it if it is fun it is against FAA regs? :mad:
Click to expand...
 
problematic

Part 61-113 says: (a) Except as provided in paragraphs (b) through (g) of this section, no person who holds a private pilot certificate may act as pilot in command of an aircraft that is carrying passengers or property for compensation or hire; nor may that person, for compensation or hire, act as pilot in command of an aircraft.
[FONT=&quot]"The FAA has historically taken the position that building-up flight time is a form of receiving compensation when the pilot does not have to pay the cost, or pays a reduced cost, of operation."

That's a quote from an old (1992) legal counsel option - the position hasn't changed, though as far as I know. Link here:

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...200/interpretations/data/interps/1992/Cox.rtf

[/FONT]
 
Gotta admit I'm confused by this one. If the ferry pilot is a private pilot, but is not "hired", nor "compensated", how is this illegal? Not trying to be argumentative, but really wonderin'!

Say I broke my leg skiing in Colorado, and couldn't fly my RV home...would this mean I can't ask another RVer that has a PP Cert to fly my plane home for me? I won't pay him, I won't pay any of his expenses (he can feed his own bad self :)), and I won't buy him an airline ticket to CO. He's just a good guy and is willing to do this out of the goodness of his heart (and to be safe, let's say the guy is not a time-builder or working on any new certificates.) The only thing I'm paying for is my expense to have my airplane flown home. He gets nothing (but a good dose of thanks!)

I'll extend this to another hypothetical scenario. I build an RV, and haven't done trasnsition training yet. So I ask a trusted RV buddy, with a PP Cert, to do the first flight. No pay for him, and he doesn't do this for a livin', but of course I'm going to pay for the gas. Illegal? Do all such first-flight pilots of others' aircraft have to have a CP Cert or higher? Is this an apples to apples comparison?

I always thought that the sharing expenses clause was there to prevent someone from psuedo-hiring themselves out to someone, i.e., PP says he can fly a friend to XYZ if they "pay for the airplane". It's gotta be two folks getting mutual benefit, sharing the expenses, not just the passenger paying, or so I thought.

In the OPs case, there is no pax, and he's just flying an airplane from A-B. Seems hard to share the expenses with someone that isn't there. I guess I can see that the ferry pilot is providing a service to the owner, but it's a service that he is not being compensated for. Then again, if the FAA views any flight time logged as compensation, if the pilot logging it is not paying for any expenses, then you'd have to contend with that. But what if a friend said, "here, go fly my airplane", then the owner filled it up upon return and the next day said, "here, go fly it again", have fun. Would that be illegal? Maybe that's apples and oranges though.

Maybe I'm just using semantics, but it sure doesn't seem to be against the spirit of the reg. Of course, spirit means less to "the Man" than letter, and I sure wouldn't try talk anyone into "dancin' on the line", so it's probably worth the due diligence to find out the bottom line (if that is possible ;)). I'd sure be interested in what you find out!

Cheers,
Bob
 
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This came up for club glider tow...

JHines said:
Part 61-113 says: (a) Except as provided in paragraphs (b) through (g) of this section, no person who holds a private pilot certificate may act as pilot in command of an aircraft that is carrying passengers or property for compensation or hire; nor may that person, for compensation or hire, act as pilot in command of an aircraft.
[FONT=&quot]"The FAA has historically taken the position that building-up flight time is a form of receiving compensation when the pilot does not have to pay the cost, or pays a reduced cost, of operation."

That's a quote from an old (1992) legal counsel option - the position hasn't changed, though as far as I know. Link here:

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...200/interpretations/data/interps/1992/Cox.rtf

[/FONT]
Click to expand...

...pilots.

IIRC, the Soaring Society of America sorted it out with an agreement that ended up with the club tow pilots (Private only, 3rd class medical) logging time, but not allowing that logged time to count for the requirements towards a higher level of license qualification.

It all hinged on the "value" of the logged time, and what you do with it.

IIRC, there is no FAA requirement to log every hour you fly...:rolleyes:

Do we have any non-commercial glider tow pilots with the exact details?

gil A - all happened after my 100 glider tows in a C150/150...:)
 
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building time

If you log those "free" hours with the intent of building time to advance toward a higher rating, it is viewed as compensation. The question still comes up in the CAP regarding cadet orientation flights.

Don't ask, don't tell,
Steve
 
Don't ask, don't tell. It isn't a violation unless "they" catch you. It's not fair. They're out to get you. I think it means...
If you're not absolutely certain, call FSDO and ask. Check out AOPA magazine a few issues ago. There's a story about a pilot being criminally prosecuted for an accident resulting in a death where he was giving "free" rides to strangers and they were covering the fuel.
I tend to take a different view of the FAA and FSDO. Maybe, just maybe, they're trying to protect us from ourselves and the general public from us. How many accidents or incidents are caused by someone who decides the rules aren't for them, or they have their own interpretation, or stretching the rules a little is OK. Fuel starvation? Carrying an approach below minimums? Landing or taking off from too short a runway? Departure at too high density altitude? VFR flight into IMC. Too many to list, but not one covered by multiple FARs.
We complain that ATC "reminds" us that we're off the assigned altitude. If I'm off 200 feet (perhaps even in part due to altimeter error) on an IFR flight and some VFR guy is also off 200 feet and/or flying too close to the clouds, I think I want ATC talking to me.
The mentality today seems to come from watching too much basketball. It's not a foul unless they blow the whistle. Certainly, it's not a foul if the referee decides not to call it his time. Sooo, I can do anything I want unless they catch me or I decide the potential penalty is too great to take a chance. What's wrong with following the rules, even without someone looking over my shoulder? Maybe, just maybe, we'll all be a little safer.
Sorry for the rant.
Terry, CFI
RV9A N323TP
 
I wish we didn't have to debate stuff like this, since you're obviously just doing a favor for a friend and you shouldn't have to shoulder any more of the "burden" than necessary. But, depending on how your local FSDO rep decides to interpret the letter of the law, I think this scenario could be construed as flying for compensation.

Basically, I think the answer is, if you're a Commercial Pilot, you can get away with it. If you're a Private Pilot, you probably cannot.

Sec. 61.133 - Commercial Pilot Privileges and Limitations.

(a) Privileges -- (1) General. A person who holds a commercial pilot certificate may act as pilot in command of an aircraft --

(i) Carrying persons or property for compensation or hire, provided the person is qualified in accordance with this part and with the applicable parts of this chapter that apply to the operation; and

(ii) For compensation or hire, provided the person is qualified in accordance with this part and with the applicable parts of this chapter that apply to the operation.
Click to expand...

Now, Commercial Pilots always have to be concerned about whether or not they are "holding out" their services, in which case they could be considered Commercial Operators. However, a ferry flight for hire is specifically authorized under FAR 191.1:

Sec. 119.1 - Certification: Air Carriers and Commercial Operators

(a) This part applies to each person operating or intending to operate civil aircraft --

(1) As an air carrier or commercial operator, or both

...

(e) Except for operations when common carriage is not involved conducted with airplanes having a passenger-seat configuration of 20 seats or more, excluding any required crewmember seat, or a payload capacity of 6,000 pounds or more, this part does NOT apply to --

(1) Student instruction;

(2) Nonstop sightseeing flights;

(3) Ferry or training flights;

(4) Aerial work operations;

... etc.
Click to expand...

Now, if you're a Private Pilot, you're basically required to pay for "your share" of the aircraft's operating costs, unless you're involved in government-sanctioned search and rescue ops.

Sec. 61.113 - Private Pilot Privileges and Limitations: Pilot in command.

(a) Except as provided in paragraphs (b) through (g) of this section, no person who holds a private pilot certificate may act as pilot in command of an aircraft that is carrying passengers or property for compensation or hire; nor may that person, for compensation or hire, act as pilot in command of an aircraft.

(b) A private pilot may, for compensation or hire, act as pilot in command of an aircraft in connection with any business or employment if:

(1) The flight is only incidental to that business or employment; and

(2) The aircraft does not carry passengers or property for compensation or hire.

(c) A private pilot may not pay less than the pro rata share of the operating expenses of a flight with passengers, provided the expenses involve only fuel, oil, airport expenditures, or rental fees.

(d) A private pilot may act as pilot in command of an aircraft used in a passenger-carrying airlift sponsored by a charitable organization described in paragraph (d)(7) of this section, and for which the passengers make a donation to the organization.

...

(e) A private pilot may be reimbursed for aircraft operating expenses that are directly related to search and location operations, provided the expenses involve only fuel, oil, airport expenditures, or rental fees, and the operation is sanctioned and under the direction and control of:

(1) A local, State, or Federal agency; or

(2) An organization that conducts search and location operations.

(f) A private pilot who is an aircraft salesman and who has at least 200 hours of logged flight time may demonstrate an aircraft in flight to a prospective buyer.

(g) A private pilot who meets the requirements of §61.69 of this part may act as pilot in command of an aircraft towing a glider.
Click to expand...

I think the specificity of 61.113(e) is the key to this whole question. Since it clearly and specifically outlines a scenario (SAR) in which a Private Pilot MAY be reimbursed for fuel, oil, etc., and since it clearly does NOT mention anything about "ferry flights for a buddy of yours," then it would be reasonable to assume that a Fed might interpret it as such.

As mentioned above, a call to your local FSDO is probably the "best" answer, since those are the guys interpreting the rules.
 
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Seems pretty simple to me. Larry did not say anything about carrying a passenger. He was asked to go pick up the airplane and ferry it to it's new home. He is not being compensated. He is not trying to acquire flight hours for a higher rating. The owner is paying the expenses to get the airplane to it's new home (fuel, tie down fees, etc.). He is not compensating Larry.
Nothing in this violates 61.113 IMHO.
I'll bet Larry is chuckling at the firestorm his question has ignited!:D
What say you, Larry?
 
Too complicated

Have your friend "sell" you a share of his plane for 1 dollar. Now, you are part owner.

Your friend did bet on the Cardinals last night right? He lost and has to pay you the bet he lost.

You then go out there and pick up the plane you now own part of using your own money that you won the bet with. Amazing the bet was just the same as fuel cost.

You also don't log the hours so it cannot be perceived that you might be working towards a higher level of license.

Upon return, you sell the share back to him........

I still think you BOTH should go out there and fly back together. He gets time in the plane and you BOTH have fun. Personally I think it would be an awesome trip and would like to do it.
 
Big picture

Ok, now that this subject has been beaten to a pulp, let's back off a little and look at the "big picture". The reason the FARs are so specific about private pilots and compensation is that the FAA feels that flying for hire should be done by people with more training and experience. When the (paying) public is involved the standards go up. Other than the "local ride" exemption in part 91, even a commercial pilot or ATP cannot charge for a point 'A' to point 'B' ride under part 91. It would have to be at least part 135 and that opens another can of regulatory worms. To the issue in this thread, of course a private pilot can deliver the airplane. Compensation? As a practical matter, don't pay the pilot. As to flight time as compensation, I doubt that the insurance company will agree to cover anyone that is so light on experience that the logged time is an issue. In the real world, when was the last time you were ramp checked? Did the inspector ask you who paid for the fuel? I didn't think so.

John Clark
RV8 N18U "Sunshine"
KSBA
 
So, after reading all of this thread, one thing I failed to notice was if Larry had ever made it clear if he has a commercial rating or not.

Sure would be funny if he had the comm, and all this mental masturbation was for naught.:rolleyes:
 
Sales call

The funny part of this is that someone with just a PPL can fly 100's of miles, give a sales demo ride, and fly back while being paid a salary, if he/she works for an aircraft manufacture.

Yet the FAA has held that flying for "free" hours is a type of compensation.

Go figure...
 
John Clark said:
Other than the "local ride" exemption in part 91, even a commercial pilot or ATP cannot charge for a point 'A' to point 'B' ride under part 91. It would have to be at least part 135 and that opens another can of regulatory worms.
Click to expand...

So, are you telling me that if the ACME Widget Co. owns a Turbo-Commander and, I fly it as a contract pilot to transport their employees to a widget sales meeting, that I must have a 135 certificate? Ahhhhh....No!
John is quite correct if it were the case that I owned the plane and was selling charter.

Mike S said:
Sure would be funny if he had the comm, and all this mental masturbation was for naught.:rolleyes:
Click to expand...

Mike,
I don't care who you are....That right there is funny! Oh, and spot on too!
Puleeze...Lets go back to RV discussions! I would have never thought that I would wish for another discussion on Pro Seal! ;)
 
Yup!

jetjok said:
So, are you telling me that if the ACME Widget Co. owns a Turbo-Commander and, I fly it as a contract pilot to transport their employees to a widget sales meeting, that I must have a 135 certificate? Ahhhhh....No!
John is quite correct if it were the case that I owned the plane and was selling charter.
Click to expand...

Yur right, I made it a little too simple. :rolleyes: I was still working on the "for compensation or hire" issue. Acme Widget can haul employees and even customers Part 91, but it has to be related to Acme's business, not selling simply transportation "for hire".

John Clark
RV8 N18U "Sunshine"
KSBA
 
Ferry permit?

I'd call the FSDO and explain the situation and see if they'll give you a ferry permit for this flight (if needed).
 
Ferry permit?

Why do you think it needs a ferry permit if it has a current Airworthy Certificate and is in annual.

**************************

Folks, you all are making this way too complicated. Both guys need to fly out there on a commercial carrier. Spend a few days fishing, check out a microbrewery or two, do a little sightseeing, even visit the mother ship in Oregon..... Then fly back for a great trip and have stories to boast to the rest of us.
 
No Ferry Permit Needed

Alan Carroll said:
I'd call the FSDO and explain the situation and see if they'll give you a ferry permit for this flight (if needed).
Click to expand...

Alan,
Unless I have gone completely soft in the brain (which could be the case) a ferry permit is only for the one time movement of an aircraft that does not meet it's type certificate, i.e. out of annual, inoperative equipment, etc.
There is no ferry permit needed for this repositioning flight.
My final 2 pennies is that I hope that Larry has a great flight. If I had the time,I would meet him there, ride with him and call it dual for his instrument, commercial, CFI, lighter than air, or whatever rating he may wish to acquire dual for! Hope that this RV gets to it's new owner soon!
 
And the Winner Is...

dmaib said:
Seems pretty simple to me. Larry did not say anything about carrying a passenger. He was asked to go pick up the airplane and ferry it to it's new home. He is not being compensated. He is not trying to acquire flight hours for a higher rating. The owner is paying the expenses to get the airplane to it's new home (fuel, tie down fees, etc.). He is not compensating Larry.
Nothing in this violates 61.113 IMHO.
I'll bet Larry is chuckling at the firestorm his question has ignited!:D
What say you, Larry?
Click to expand...

David has it right. Some of you are over-thinking a bit.

Hans
 
I have the solution.....

Hire me to go pick up the airplane! That way nobody does anything illegal.

I'll do it for $250 per day, plus expenses! ;)

CDE
 
Assuming that you fly commercial into Seattle, check out the following:

That pointy thingie

Original Starbucks

Fish food places

Snoqualmie Falls
 
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