G

Gnorque

I'm New Here
Hello and thank you for any info you can pass on with the registration paperwork process.

I bought an RV8 QB kit awhile back and due to a couple medical issues I stopped working on the build. Fortunately, I was able to get my medical back but did not have time to continue the project and I hired someone to finish the airplane.

After contacting a local DAR I am told what I’ve done is illegal and cannot register the airplane and need to have the builder apply for a registration then sell it back to me. I’m a little confused about this process.

If this is the case how does the 8500-88 form need to be filled out? Can I transfer the reserved N number? Is the DAR correct? Local FSDO has not returned my calls.

Thanks in advance.
 
Welcome to VAF

Bill, welcome aboard:D

You mentioned you had done some of the work-------how much did you do?

Where in CA are you?
 
Sorry.........

You have paid to have the airplane built. It no longer qualifies as an Amateur-Built aircraft for you or the builder.

The only way to legally certificate the aircraft is in the Experimental Exhibition Category.
 
Gnorque said:
Fortunately, I was able to get my medical back but did not have time to continue the project and I hired someone to finish the airplane.
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Whoever you hired was uninformed, unscrupulous, or both. Also unfortunate that builders are unaware of what they are partaking in and the associated requirements.
 
Mel said:
You have paid to have the airplane built. It no longer qualifies as an Amateur-Built aircraft for you or the builder.

The only way to legally certificate the aircraft is in the Experimental Exhibition Category.
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Not arguing with you here …but the info I was given the project could be sold to the builder then sold back to me and registered as Amateur Build? Is that not correct?

I probably did 25% of the work on the QB and then stopped.

The kit is in Northern California for the other poster that asked.
 
Is selling an Experimental category aircraft legal if it is still in phase I ? regarding the situation the OP is referring to.
 
Gnorque said:
Not arguing with you here …but the info I was given the project could be sold to the builder then sold back to me and registered as Amateur Build? Is that not correct?

I probably did 25% of the work on the QB and then stopped.

The kit is in Northern California for the other poster that asked.
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True if everyone along the way was amateur building. The last guy that had it was PAID. DAR was correct, and I'm sure the FSDO knows too. Your scrupulous option is as Mel stated above.
 
wcalvert said:
Is selling an Experimental category aircraft legal if it is still in phase I ? regarding the situation the OP is referring to.
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OP is trying to register, which means there's no airworthiness yet, which means Phase 1 isn't even on the table.
 
N82VM said:
True if everyone along the way was amateur building. The last guy that had it was PAID. DAR was correct, and I'm sure the FSDO knows too. Your scrupulous option is as Mel stated above.
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Again not trying to be difficult or arguing…if (emphasis added) I get back involved directly with the project you can’t pay someone to help finish it?

I have been thinking of just selling entire project to the guy anyway as he’s discussed a very fair price for the project.

Kind of in a quandary about what to do.
 
Gnorque said:
Again not trying to be difficult or arguing…if (emphasis added) I get back involved directly with the project you can’t pay someone to help finish it?

I have been thinking of just selling entire project to the guy anyway as he’s discussed a very fair price for the project.

Kind of in a quandary about what to do.
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You can pay to build assist. Done all the time. As Mel stated there's little room for build assist on an 8 QB. Depending on how much was done there may not be 51% left for the amateur builder to accomplish.
 
N82VM said:
You can pay to build assist. Done all the time. As Mel stated there's little room for build assist on an 8 QB. Depending on how much was done there may not be 51% left for the amateur builder to accomplish.
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Ahhh ok I see.

I guess the percentage left is subjective…..but my option is to either sell the kit or get more involved time wise what’s left. Which I can.

Appreciate the input.
 
:eek:
Gnorque said:
Ahhh ok I see.

I guess the percentage left is subjective…..but my option is to either sell the kit or get more involved time wise what’s left. Which I can.

Appreciate the input.
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It's not quite that simple. The percentage is not subjective, there is a checklist that is used to assure the aircraft is amateur built, the DAR who pointed out the problem is no doubt well-versed on this.

If you sell the kit, the buyer will have the same issues you are having. A savvy buyer will balk, and you might want to be sure you really want the (unethical) hassle of unloading your kit on an unsuspecting builder. This could come back to bite you if the buyer ends up in a bad mood. But I have to admit I'm not sure where all this falls if the pro buys your kit. Is it still "pro-built" if the pro ends up owning the RV? Did he pay himself to build the plane? At the very least it seems he would have to be the one to register and complete the airworthiness process.

Unfortunately, you have painted yourself into a corner if your description of the situation is accurate. Mel's suggestion of using Experimental Exhibition may be your only good option. However, this will negatively impact resale value of your RV-8 since most RVers don't want to touch this type of certification.

Really sorry you are in this predicament, wish some homework had been done in advance......
 
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Another possibility is to sell it out of the country to someone who wants to register it an a country that doesn't have the same certification rules. Like the guys in Brazil (I think) that build RV-10s for resale.
 
Sam Buchanan said:
:eek:

It's not quite that simple. The percentage is not subjective, there is a checklist that is used to assure the aircraft is amateur built, the DAR who pointed out the problem is no doubt well-versed on this.

If you sell the kit, the buyer will have the same issues you are having. A savvy buyer will balk, and you might want to be sure you really want the (unethical) hassle of unloading your kit on an unsuspecting builder. This could come back to bite you if the buyer ends up in a bad mood. But I have to admit I'm not sure where all this falls if the pro buys your kit. Is it still "pro-built" if the pro ends up owning the RV? Did he pay himself to build the plane? Mel??

Unfortunately, you have painted yourself into a corner if your description of the situation is accurate. Mel's suggestion of using Experimental Exhibition may be your only good option. However, this will negatively impact resale value of your RV-8 since most RVers don't want to touch this type of certification.

Really sorry you are in this predicament, wish some homework had been done in advance......
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Unfortunately, my homework initially was correct but getting sick threw a huge wrench in the plans. I still am in a position to do a builder assist at this point. At least I think I am.

If I sold I’d only sell to him…which I could do right away if I pull that trigger. He doesn’t seem concerned at all about the process to certify it and he’s experienced. Interesting point though non the less.

I know of an off market 8 for sale so it’s making that avenue appealing.
 
Gnorque said:
Not arguing with you here …but the info I was given the project could be sold to the builder then sold back to me and registered as Amateur Build? Is that not correct?
I probably did 25% of the work on the QB and then stopped.
The kit is in Northern California for the other poster that asked.
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You can juggle words any way you like. (And many do).
Bottom line is that the builder built it for pay! And according to §21.191(g), the aircraft is NOT Amateur-Built.

§21.161(g) Operating amateur-built aircraft. Operating an aircraft the major portion of which has been fabricated and assembled by persons who undertook the construction project solely for their own education or recreation.
 
Mel said:
You can juggle words any way you like. (And many do).
Bottom line is that the builder built it for pay! And according to §21.191(g), the aircraft is NOT Amateur-Built.

§21.161(g) Operating amateur-built aircraft. Operating an aircraft the major portion of which has been fabricated and assembled by persons who undertook the construction project solely for their own education or recreation.
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I wasn’t trying to juggle any words I’m generally confused having received conflicting information to this point. As I stated, I have done work on it already myself until I got sick. So I’m assuming a builder assist at this point forward is out of the question?
 
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Gnorque said:
I wasn’t trying to juggle any words I’m generally confused having received conflicting information to this point. As I stated, I have done work on it already myself until I got sick. So I’m assuming a builder assist at this point forward is out of the question?
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You may not be juggling words but the DAR that gave you that advice certainly is.
 
This is a very expensive thing to get into and not understand exactly how it works.

If the guy that you paid is willing and not balking at figuring out how to register it then just take that fair price and move on. This is the path of least resistance.

Find yourself a completed airplane and buy it, fly it, and enjoy your time.
 
N82VM said:
Whoever you hired was uninformed, unscrupulous, or both. Also unfortunate that builders are unaware of what they are partaking in and the associated requirements.
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Agreed, the person should have known if he is so experienced.

Gnorque said:
I have been thinking of just selling entire project to the guy anyway as he’s discussed a very fair price for the project.
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I'm going to send you a PM here to find out what that "fair price" he's offering you is. Depending on that price I might be able to help you. I already own an Experimental Exhibition plane and I'm not scared of owning another one.
 
Well that didn't work, looks like you don't have PMs setup. If you google or look up my airport on any app you'll find my contact info: Vaca Moo Airport TA37. Give me a call or text me your number.
 
Gnorque said:
I wasn’t trying to juggle any words I’m generally confused having received conflicting information to this point. As I stated, I have done work on it already myself until I got sick. So I’m assuming a builder assist at this point forward is out of the question?
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The benchmark any work on an experimental amateur built is judged by The Amateur built fabrication and assembly checklist. Copy attached below, along with the job aid used for completing it.


It wouldn’t matter if you sold the project to the person you contracted with. He would still have to credit any tasks done by himself, that you paid him for, as work that was commercially done and it would count against the total credited to the amateur builder side.
 

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Mel said:
You have paid to have the airplane built. It no longer qualifies as an Amateur-Built aircraft for you or the builder.

The only way to legally certificate the aircraft is in the Experimental Exhibition Category.
Click to expand...

One can buy a kit, give up on building it, and sell the unfinished kit to another builder who then finishes building it, obtains the AWC and registers it. That builder is free to then sell it to anyone, including the kit's original purchaser.

Please explain how this, in PRACTICALITY, is different.
 
jimbom said:
One can buy a kit, give up on building it, and sell the unfinished kit to another builder who then finishes building it, obtains the AWC and registers it. That builder is free to then sell it to anyone, including the kit's original purchaser.

Please explain how this, in PRACTICALITY, is different.
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EAB means ‘amateur built’. Those are the rules. Paid help is not amateur built, even if that person later changes his stripes and finishes it without pay.
Related: there is currently a plane for sale that is at a ‘builder assist’ facility. The posted invoice shows a princely sum has been paid. It even appears that the plane is being built in the owner’s absence. I’d appreciate one of the vaf DAR’s comment, would they issue an AW certificate to this airplane?
 
jimbom said:
One can buy a kit, give up on building it, and sell the unfinished kit to another builder who then finishes building it, obtains the AWC and registers it. That builder is free to then sell it to anyone, including the kit's original purchaser.

Please explain how this, in PRACTICALITY, is different.
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Because the first person and the second person both built it for the enjoyment and learning experience and that's what sets it apart from everything done for pay and makes it comply with the regulations.
 
BobTurner said:
EAB means ‘amateur built’. Those are the rules. Paid help is not amateur built, even if that person later changes his stripes and finishes it without pay.
Related: there is currently a plane for sale that is at a ‘builder assist’ facility. The posted invoice shows a princely sum has been paid. It even appears that the plane is being built in the owner’s absence. I’d appreciate one of the vaf DAR’s comment, would they issue an AW certificate to this airplane?
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I haven't seen the bill and what the payments have been made for so it's hard to answer that. That makes all the difference. For example if I buy a kit and pay a shop $1000 a week to help and guide me, but I do all the work, then it doesn't matter how much I paid the for owner assistance because I still did it all.
 
Pilot135pd said:
Because the first person and the second person both built it for the enjoyment and learning experience and that's what sets it apart from everything done for pay and makes it comply with the regulations.
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I'm just going to ask this to be a bit of a gadfly :)...what is "it" that was built for education, or was paid to be built? Is it just the airframe? What about the seats and interior from Classic Aero that I bought? I didn't build those, are they part of "it"? I didn't build any of the avionics, although I did wire them together. Is the engine "it", or not?

I'm saying all of this a bit tongue in cheek, and a bit not. There are whole huge pieces of "it" ("it" being the final completed airplane) that we're not usually building, but paying others to build for us. Why is the airframe any different, assuming he makes up the 51% somewhere else (maybe he builds up his own engine, or fabs up his own seats and interior, or he's a whiz with PC boards, who knows?).
 
What's really sad is that the OP posted here hoping to get help and shot himself in the foot, and now has no good options. Sadly the gyroplane world has a few sellers who buy the gyros fully built in another country, disassemble them enough to ship them here then assemble them here again and register them under the guise of owner assisted. If the FAA or the DAR really wanted to bust her it would be so easy because the pictures she shows are always the same angles because she does the same with all the gyros, nothing E-AB about them.

So the only hope the OP has is to find one of those DARs who only cares about the money, but then has to live with the consequences of possibly some day getting caught for lying on the paperwork.
 
RV7A Flyer said:
I'm just going to ask this to be a bit of a gadfly :)...what is "it" that was built for education, or was paid to be built? Is it just the airframe? What about the seats and interior from Classic Aero that I bought? I didn't build those, are they part of "it"? I didn't build any of the avionics, although I did wire them together. Is the engine "it", or not?

I'm saying all of this a bit tongue in cheek, and a bit not. There are whole huge pieces of "it" ("it" being the final completed airplane) that we're not usually building, but paying others to build for us. Why is the airframe any different, assuming he makes up the 51% somewhere else (maybe he builds up his own engine, or fabs up his own seats and interior, or he's a whiz with PC boards, who knows?).
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I think that was answered previously
 
BobTurner said:
EAB means ‘amateur built’. Those are the rules. Paid help is not amateur built...
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Let's say my buddy is an A&P. I ask him for help with various parts, in exchange for cold brews and steak dinners. Is he being paid? Is it now illegal? What if he wasn't an A&P? What if I asked him to pick up the beer, and paid him back when he showed up?

So many questions...
 
Delete

Moderators, please help this guy out and delete this entire thread. Original poster, quit asking the FAA questions immediately. Go do some research and get your plane certified. Again, someone delete this whole conversation quickly!
 
The FAA makes it pretty clear that "paying" with anything of value means a person is being compensated. It does not have to be cash.
 
oaklandaviator said:
Moderators, please help this guy out and delete this entire thread. Original poster, quit asking the FAA questions immediately. Go do some research and get your plane certified. Again, someone delete this whole conversation quickly!
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I absolutely disagree. Leave it posted as a warning to others that they are not special, the rules actually do apply to them, violate them at your own peril.
 
upperdeck said:
The FAA makes it pretty clear that "paying" with anything of value means a person is being compensated. It does not have to be cash.
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edit: Clear as MUD. Just like their ridiculous interpretation that instructing for free in an E A/B was still being compensated because building hours is just like pay. :rolleyes:

The bulk of FARs, Orders, etc are unbelievably ambiguous. Perhaps by design.
 
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jimbom said:
edit: Clear as MUD. Just like their ridiculous interpretation that instructing for free in an E A/B was still being compensated because building hours is just like pay. :rolleyes:

The bulk of FARs, Orders, etc are unbelievably ambiguous. Perhaps by design.
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Well, this is a poor example, as the faa has ‘fixed’ the fars to allow instruction (for hire or free) in EAB aircraft (as long as the owner is not compensated for the aircraft). The real issue, imho, lies with owners and their lawyers who have sought ‘end runs’ around the “plain English” interpretation of the rules, plus the faa’s refusal to ever admit to a mistake. Prime example: the 2 weeks to taxi program. No one in their right mind can believe that a builder could do 51% of the work in two weeks. But a single rogue fsdo okayed it, and now the faa doesn’t have the guts to say they made a mistake. This just encourages others to come up with all sorts of crazy rule interpretations.
 
BobTurner said:
Well, this is a poor example, as the faa has ‘fixed’ the fars to allow instruction (for hire or free) in EAB aircraft (as long as the owner is not compensated for the aircraft). The real issue, imho, lies with owners and their lawyers who have sought ‘end runs’ around the “plain English” interpretation of the rules, plus the faa’s refusal to ever admit to a mistake. Prime example: the 2 weeks to taxi program. No one in their right mind can believe that a builder could do 51% of the work in two weeks.
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AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
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