[cwoodyfly2001]

Explain why Builders Sell?

I have been looking RVs for several months and was wondering why is there so many people selling very low time RV's? If you are going to build why would you sell at less than 100hrs.. The builders of these airplanes trying to make a living doing this or do they just run out of money?
Thought I would ask
Chris

 

[RVbySDI]

I have been looking RVs for several months and was wondering why is there so many people selling very low time RV's? If you are going to build why would you sell at less than 100hrs.. The builders of these airplanes trying to make a living doing this or do they just run out of money?
Thought I would ask
Chris

Probably some may be doing it to make money. However, there are many who build for the enjoyment they get from building instead of for the goal of having an airplane they can fly for the rest of their life.

 

[John Clark]

Different strokes

I have been looking RVs for several months and was wondering why is there so many people selling very low time RV's? If you are going to build why would you sell at less than 100hrs.. The builders of these airplanes trying to make a living doing this or do they just run out of money?
Thought I would ask
Chris

I think I can explain this. There are people in this hobby that get great enjoyment in the building process. Then there are those of us who would rather fly. When i was a kid I had a friend who's father was an amateur boat builder. Beautiful sail boats. After years of work he would launch the boat, sail it once, and sell it only to start another. For him the joy was in the build. As someone put it "there are those who want to build an airplane and those who have to build an airplane."

And no, if you crunch the numbers it would be hard to "make a living."

John Clark
RV8 N18U "Sunshine"
KSBA

 

[edweeks]

Wondered the same thing

When I started looking at RV's I wondered about the same thing. I found a couple of common explanations: 1) what others have already said -- most concisely, there are builders and there are flyers; 2) Need the money 3) changed mission -- usually a need for a 4-place airplane and 4) lost medical.

I did not run into any instance where displeasure with the RV's performance or poor workmanship were likely reasons for selling. I bought a flying RV and it has been a joy.

Ed

 

[gmcjetpilot]

Most RV's are flown and owned A LOT

I have been looking RVs for several months and was wondering why is there so many people selling very low time RV's? If you are going to build why would you sell at less than 100hrs.. The builders of these airplanes trying to make a living doing this or do they just run out of money? Thought I would ask Chris

Chris that could be. However its extremely rare.

In fact RV's fly more than most other experimentals on average. I don't have data on it, but not withstanding fuel prices, but you will see lots of RV at air show, 30, 60 or 200 attend. Go to the glasair side, 5 or 10. Granted there are more RV's than other makes but you don't get those numbers unless people fly them.

Also RV's with 150hp and 160hp are so darn efficient. Its not like you are flying a slow gas guzzler, its a truly efficient mode of transportation. You can afford to fly it.

Lets go back 20 years. After the Glasair set the stage for pre-fab kit planes, they had lots of new kit planes out there, making all kind of claims. Experimental kits where booming. Some of these new kit planes flew terrible. You'd see them for sale unfinished or finished and never flown or with low time.

Not as much now, but you still see these weird models for sale that are 10-20 years old and have 35 hours. Planes like BD-5's and the early Sea-hawk or Sea-goose (what ever) had scary handling. I would not fly one. Builders would catch wind of what was going on and get afraid to fly it again or even once.

Needless to say if you are a wannabe and never flew a RV, than I can assure you the above does not apply. If you flown one than there is nothing to say.


It could be a build for profit thing, they did run out money, divorce, lost medical or in many cases they WANT to build again. Many builders are 2nd and 3rd time offenders.

If you are implying there is anything wrong with the RV handling, value or safety, which I don't think you are, than there is no worry there.

There is one nefarious possibility. A BIG mistake was made building and the plane flys terrible, e.g., the wings are on real crooked. I'd hope no one would sell an unsafe plane or on deceptively with known problems, but it happens. I have seen some rough RV's in the past and they flew well. The design is so robust even a rough one flys great.

 

[Brambo]

Many builders are 2nd and 3rd time offenders[/B].

The first time I went to Oshkosh I was amazed at how many people were on thier 2nd or 3rd airplane. Up until then I had always considered building an airplane a once in a lifetime kinda thing.

Bill Rambo
RV-7A

 

[dan]

Also you have to consider how much it costs to FLY these days. Not just fuel, but insurance, hangar, etc...fixed operating costs. Some folks out there just don't have enough disposable income to rationalize holding onto a an airplane that locks up significant equity.

Some of these planes for sale with low total time...they're not all "new." If they've only been flown say 50 hours per year...it might be hard to rationalize keeping 'em when the alternative is to "cash out," take that chunk of change, get out from under the fixed costs, etc.

Just like building an airplane takes dedication, owning an airplane takes dedication. If you're not dedicated to POURING MONEY into operating it, it may not make sense to keep it.

 

[arffguy]

Good points all

I know a fellow who started to build his RV-8 when he was single. Now he's married with two little kids and he can't decide whether to sell it and put the money into college funds, etc. He keeps thinking about the potential hundred grand he could get out of it. Not to mention the costs to operate that Dan brings up. It's not an easy decision I am sure.

 

[kevinsky18]

I've crunched the numbers a few times in terms of making money on selling RVs and there isn't any. If you build a very good plane and fly the breakin hours off of it you may get enough back to break even. If you build a second plane and thus know what your doing, have all your shop tools etc you may make 5 bucks an hour on a two year project. And that's "if" you do a good build job.

With that said if you're not into building and really like to fly, just buy one. It may seem more expensive than building but you have no idea of all the hiden and forgotten costs that most people don't calculate into the build. I think at around $100K for a well build sharp looking RV-8 with nice paint and nice interior and a decent panel is a steal. Of course these planes don't need paint, nice interiors or fancy panels to fly. Thus bare bones flying RV-8s I've seen for around $80,000. Which when you factor in shop tools, hanger rental, builder insurance, 2-4 years of heat and power for your work space, etc is about break even for a build. Add in some paid builder assistance and that $80K could actually be a lose for the builder.

In short 99% of those who build and sell just like to build. They aren't making a living at it.

 

[fliier]

I'm surprised this many people build airplanes at all

I'm not at all surprised people drop out of aviation.

I calculate my little 160hp $50,000 RV costs me about $11,300 after-tax to maintain every year. That's with hangar rent of less than $250, and includes the carrying cost of the asset. With the average 80 hours I fly per year that equates to over $140/hour to enjoy my hobby.

It's not surprising that guys who do the math take a big gulp and ask themselves if they could do something else for less than $12k/year and reap similar enjoyment.

A guy in his 40's would convert that money to $16k pre-tax and and build tax deferred savings for his kids, or build an HSA and guarantee health benefits for his retirement. Heaven knows with the kids around he's got other things to spend his time on.

An older guy might sell the airplane and reap the equivalent of a 50-60% increase in his Social Security benefit.

You have to really want to do this flying thing, and you have to be able to afford it. Otherwise there are more important things to spend your money on.

John Allen

 

[Chino Tom]

John,

Nice to see you are still out there . It is impossible to justify this hobby. At least this asset doesn't go down in value. It is definately not cheaper than renting. But it has been said before, when I open the hangar door, there she is, ready to go at my beck and call and doesn't ever have to say "come sit by me"!

Tom

 

[fliier]

At least I'm not like. . .

Hey Tom,

Yeah, I own one of these things so I guess we know what side of the equation I've come down on. I'm either rich or foolish, so I'm telling people I'm rich.

I can always point to guys like you who have spent even more money for a C/S prop. There but for the grace of God. . .

Weather's supposed to be great on Saturday. I guess we'd better go fly or our cost per hour will be even higher (LOL).

I'm going to Porterville for breakfast. I helped talk another poor soul into flying as a hobby so I'm picking him up at WHP at 7:30

John Allen

 

[Captain Avgas]

Get it carefully checked out

Also you have to consider how much it costs to FLY these days. Not just fuel, but insurance, hangar, etc...fixed operating costs. Some folks out there just don't have enough disposable income to rationalize holding onto a an airplane that locks up significant equity.

As usual, shrewd observation from Dan the man. Virtually every first time builder runs hopelessly over budget. When you haven't built before you have absolutely no idea of all the countless things you will need to purchase (or subcontract) to complete the plane.

Many builders just end up with too much capital tied up in the plane and can't justify it with the small number of hours they fly.

Then there's the fallacy that when you finally get flying it's all plain sailing financially. Not so....you keep haemorrhaging money to keep the plane in the air.

It's like when pilots learn to fly. They look at the cost of getting the ticket...without fully realising that the dollar expenditure keeps on going from there in a big way. It's a very expensive hobby regardless of whether you build, buy or rent.

And this might be contraversial but.......some homebuilts are definitely not up to scratch. There's a VERY broad spectrum of quality out there. So it would be logical that some builders ARE concerned about skeletons in the closet and so they sell.

It's true that some builders want to build a second plane...but some of them want to build a second plane because they made all their learning mistakes on the first one.

If you plan on buying my advise would be to get any RV checked out CAREFULLY by a professional before purchasing. But I'd give the same advice for any plane.

Always ask for the construction logs....and be especially careful of planes built in a small number of hours. Haste is the enemy of quality.

And finally, be cautious of "the big bargain". RV builders with a well built quality machine are not likely to flog it off cheap. It's like everything else in life that you purchase...you tend to get what you pay for.

Cheers Bob Barrow