apkp777

apkp777

Well Known Member
As my first flight is getting near, I figured it's time to start thinking about flight testing and FAR's. I admit that I am sort of in a haze when it comes to all the rules pertaining experimental aircraft.

I have spent many hours today reading every FAR and Advisory Circular that I can find pertaining to experimental's. I also have read a bunch threads dealing with the subject here on VAF.

I am trying to educate myself as much as I can, but as always you all in VAF land tend to shed insight that I didn't consider. Even though I think I have the answers to the questions below. However, I don't want to have a "my mind is made up, don't confuse me with the facts: mentality. Here are the documents I have been reading.

First Question is: Does anyone know of any other documents that I should be reading?

FAR's
Part 21, Certification Procedures for Products and Parts
Part 21, subpart H, Airworthiness Certificates
Part 43, MAINTENANCE, PREVENTIVE MAINTENANCE, REBUILDING, AND ALTERATION
Part 45, Identification and Registration Marking
Section 91.313, Restricted category civil aircraft: Operating limitations.
Part 91, subpart D, Special Flight Operations.

Orders
8130.2, Airworthiness Certification of Aircraft and Related Products
8300.10, Airworthiness Inspector's Handbook

Advisory Circulars
20-27, Certification and Operation of Amateur-Built Aircraft
20-139, Commercial Assistance During Construction of amateur-Built Aircraft
90-89, Amateur-Built Aircraft and Ultralight Flight Testing Handbook

Other questions:

1. If someone with an experimental aircraft asks me to do a biannual flight review, do I need to get a waiver in order to charge them a fee?

2. I have a flight student Logan who is 16 (and just soloed). His grandfather bought him an RV 6a. Do I need a waiver to finish his flight training in the RV 6?

3. Can I do the annual condition inspection for the above mentioned airplane (I have an A&P, my IA has expired)?

4. Can I do Pro Rata share when taking people for a ride?

5. If I don't get a repairman's certificate, can I apply the building and maintenance of my airplane toward the experience requirements for my A&P?

6: Can I give a tail wheel endorsement, no charge to someone in my airplane?
 
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apkp777 said:
1. If someone with an experimental aircraft asks me to do a biannual flight review, do I need to get a waiver in order to charge them a fee?

2. I have a flight student Logan who is 16 (and just soloed). His grandfather bought him an RV 6a. Do I need a waiver to finish his flight training?

3. Can I do the annual condition inspection for the above mentioned airplane (I have an A&P, my IA has expired)?

4. Can I do Pro Rata share when taking people for a ride?

5. If I don't get a repairman's certificate, can I apply the building and maintenance of my airplane toward the experience requirements for my A&P?
Click to expand...

1: (Assuming you mean in your airplane?) No, they did away with the experimental waiver at the beginning of the 2010. You can only charge for your time. If you mean in the other persons airplane then you can charge for your time without any waiver or worry. In this case the aircraft is not for hire.

2: Again, no waiver available. Why not finish the training in his RV-6A?

3: You can to do the condition inspection on any experimental with just an A&P, no need for IA since it's not an "Annual".

4: Sure. Think of experimental like a Private Certificate. You can do pretty much anything with a PPL but be fore hire. Experimental aircraft can do pretty much anything but be for hire.

5: You can log it but I think it depends on the FAA person you ask if it can count towards your A&P. I think it's safe to say building just 1 RV doesn't qualify for the experience required though.

I'm no authority. These answers are correct to my knowledge but I have been wrong before.
 
Sid, on question 2 I edited it to ask if I can finish the student's flight training in his RV-6. (can you believe this 16 year old kid just got an RV).

I agree with all your answers. Just seems a bit unclear about how to charge for flight instruction in someone else's airplane. It seems that I can do instruction in my own plane but not charge for it.

Question 6: Can I give a tail wheel endorsement, no charge to someone in my own airplane?
 
apkp777 said:
As my first flight is getting near, I figured it's time to start thinking about flight testing and FAR's. I admit that I am sort of in a haze when it comes to all the rules pertaining experimental aircraft.

I have spent many hours today reading every FAR and Advisory Circular that I can find pertaining to experimental's. I also have read a bunch threads dealing with the subject here on VAF.

I am trying to educate myself as much as I can, but as always you all in VAF land tend to shed insight that I didn't consider. Even though I think I have the answers to the questions below. However, I don't want to have a "my mind is made up, don't confuse me with the facts: mentality. Here are the documents I have been reading.

First Question is: Does anyone know of any other documents that I should be reading?

FAR's
Part 21, Certification Procedures for Products and Parts
Part 21, subpart H, Airworthiness Certificates
Part 43, MAINTENANCE, PREVENTIVE MAINTENANCE, REBUILDING, AND ALTERATION
Part 45, Identification and Registration Marking
Section 91.313, Restricted category civil aircraft: Operating limitations.
Part 91, subpart D, Special Flight Operations.

Orders
8130.2, Airworthiness Certification of Aircraft and Related Products
8300.10, Airworthiness Inspector's Handbook

Advisory Circulars
20-27, Certification and Operation of Amateur-Built Aircraft
20-139, Commercial Assistance During Construction of amateur-Built Aircraft
90-89, Amateur-Built Aircraft and Ultralight Flight Testing Handbook

Other questions:

1. If someone with an experimental aircraft asks me to do a biannual flight review, do I need to get a waiver in order to charge them a fee?

2. I have a flight student Logan who is 16 (and just soloed). His grandfather bought him an RV 6a. Do I need a waiver to finish his flight training in the RV 6?

3. Can I do the annual condition inspection for the above mentioned airplane (I have an A&P, my IA has expired)?

4. Can I do Pro Rata share when taking people for a ride?

5. If I don't get a repairman's certificate, can I apply the building and maintenance of my airplane toward the experience requirements for my A&P?
Click to expand...

I think you may be reading more than you need. Yes it looks like you got the correct documents and parts of the FARs.

The EAA web site has lots of good info for Homebuilders. You need to be an EAA member to access it. If you get redirected to Oshkosh365.org, click go back button in your browser and try again.

1. [FONT=&quot]Yes you can charge for YOUR TIME in their airplane but not in your Experimental Airplane.[/FONT]

2. [FONT=&quot]NO. It is his airplane. The airplane cannot be used for compensation or hire but the CFI gets paid because someone else is furnishing the airplane FREE.[/FONT]

3. [FONT=&quot]ANY A&P can do the once a year condition inspection on any EXPERIMENTAL aircraft and CHARGE for it.[/FONT]

4. I will let someone else answer this. I believe that you can SHARE expenses on a flight.

5. NO.
 
You can charge to train someone in their aircraft.

As far as the tailwheel endorsement in your aircraft... I think it satisfies the FARs if you do not charge for the aircraft. It's one of the rules that draws dissenting opinions. If it were my certificate on the line I would ask the FSDO to cover my ***.
 
No Can Do Without a "Letter of Deviation"

You can only charge for your time.

Not in your aircraft. Without the LODA, charging only for your time would be considered a transparent attempt to circumvent the intent of the regulation. If this were the case, I'd bump my instruction rate to $200/hour and throw in the airplane for free. That way, I could avoid the higher insurance rate, the requirement for 100 hour inspections, and other oversight issues.
Terry, CFI
RV-9A N323TP
 
Terry,

What's your thought on giving a tailwheel endorsement for free (or pro rata) in your airplane?
 
That won't fly, Terry..

terrykohler said:
You can only charge for your time.

....., I'd bump my instruction rate to $200/hour and throw in the airplane for free. That way, I could avoid the higher insurance rate, the requirement for 100 hour inspections, and other oversight issues.
Terry, CFI
RV-9A N323TP
Click to expand...

I discussed this same avenue with Joe Norris of EAA and it's too transparent...the feds will see through that, when you consider most CFI's charge around $35-50 everywhere, besides, your insurance may or may not cover you either.

Best,
 
Pierre,

I think Terry was saying the same thing, and just giving an example of what won't work (or be legal).

Just to avert my descent into confusion (a common occurrence ;)), does it condense to this?:

A CFI can teach another person in the student's RV (or any E-AB Airplane the student owns), and can charge for his time as an instructor.

A CFI can teach another person in an RV provided by a third party, and charge for his time as an instructor, as long as the student is not paying for the plane (and would that have to include free gas?)

A CFI can teach another person in the CFIs RV, as long as there is no, nada, zilch money paid by the student? (or is that a no-no...and a related Q, can the student buy the gas in this situation?)

For a CFI to charge for instruction and/or aircraft time in the CFI's airplane, he (she) needs a LODA to be legal.

Don't want to beat this to death, but just wondering. Not embarking on a CFI side-job, but I am doing a pinch-hitter course for a friend's wife (gratis, and in his RV), and may help out with SAR squadron checkrides (also gratis, their airplanes, some E-AB) that could mission-creep into FRs. Always want to be sure I'm legal in every way!

And yes, that's one lucky 16 year old!! :D

Cheers,
Bob
 
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CFI Compensation

Some time ago, I came to the conclusion that a CFI cannot charge when he gives instruction in his experimental aircraft, but he can provide free instruction. I haven't looked at the other issues noted above.
 
As always, lots of good input to think about. Based on what I hear and the FARs i have read, there is no reason I can't give a tailwheel endorsement in my plane if I don't charge anything. Can I do it pro rata?
 
apkp777 said:
FAR's
Part 21, Certification Procedures for Products and Parts
Part 21, subpart H, Airworthiness Certificates
Part 43, MAINTENANCE, PREVENTIVE MAINTENANCE, REBUILDING, AND ALTERATION
Part 45, Identification and Registration Marking
Section 91.313, Restricted category civil aircraft: Operating limitations.
Part 91, subpart D, Special Flight Operations.
Click to expand...

Part 43 does not apply to experimental aircraft, except as called out in the operating limitations issued to the aircraft itself (regarding condition inspection in accordance with scope and detail of appendix D to part 43)

apkp777 said:
Orders
8130.2, Airworthiness Certification of Aircraft and Related Products
8300.10, Airworthiness Inspector's Handbook
Click to expand...

8300.10 is obsolete. 8900.1 is the current handbook for both airworthiness and operations.

apkp777 said:
Advisory Circulars
20-27, Certification and Operation of Amateur-Built Aircraft
20-139, Commercial Assistance During Construction of amateur-Built Aircraft
90-89, Amateur-Built Aircraft and Ultralight Flight Testing Handbook
Click to expand...

AC 20-139 is obsolete. Info formerly contained in that AC is now incorporated into the new AC 20-27G. Do not use earlier versions of AC 20-27.

apkp777 said:
1. If someone with an experimental aircraft asks me to do a biannual flight review, do I need to get a waiver in order to charge them a fee?
Click to expand...

No waiver needed. You are allowed to charge a fee for your instructor services in any experimental aircraft. So long as no charge is being made for use of the aircraft (as when flying the person's own homebuilt) you're good to go.

apkp777 said:
2. I have a flight student Logan who is 16 (and just soloed). His grandfather bought him an RV 6a. Do I need a waiver to finish his flight training in the RV 6?
Click to expand...

No. Same as above.

apkp777 said:
3. Can I do the annual condition inspection for the above mentioned airplane (I have an A&P, my IA has expired)?
Click to expand...

Yes. No IA is required when performing a condition inspection on an experimental aircraft.

apkp777 said:
4. Can I do Pro Rata share when taking people for a ride?
Click to expand...

There is no clear guidance on this. I have had more than one FAA inspector (including HQ personnel) tell me that NO compensation is allowed in an experimental aircraft, including pro-rata share. That is a private pilot allowance, but not necessarily an aircraft allowance. I would consider this "don't ask, don't tell" if I were you. Be careful what you admit to! :)

apkp777 said:
5. If I don't get a repairman's certificate, can I apply the building and maintenance of my airplane toward the experience requirements for my A&P?
Click to expand...

Even if you DO get a repairman certificate you can apply the experience gained in building an amateur-built aircraft toward the field experience requirement for a mechanic certificate. You will not be able to meet the requirements for the A&P after building just one aircraft, but you can combine that experience with other experience you may have.

apkp777 said:
6: Can I give a tail wheel endorsement, no charge to someone in my airplane?
Click to expand...

Sure!
 
Thanks Joe, I was thinking the same answers to all my own questions. It's great to get other's thoughts. I asked the same questions to my FAA airworthiness inspector today and he was a bit unsure of some of the answers. His statement was, "the FAA isn't looking for people to violate, just looking for those who are trying to skirt the system". He thought that a violation would be obvious and if it was obscure to me, it's likely the FAA would not come down too hard on a mistake. He said "that doesn't mean the lawyers won't".

By the way, pink slip is in hand! If the ceilings would lift we'd have another first flight to report!
 
Congratulations Tony! Glad to hear that your inspection went well. Let us know how the first flight goes!
 
General thoughts on insurance and RV dual

I'm not an insurance expert, but I have bought many policies for several planes under different flying circumstances over the years. I've also given compensated dual in an RV under a previously allowed FAA exemption.

My take re. insurance is you're completely on your own, or worse - probably without liability protection - giving dual in your experimental undeclared. I can't see where the insurance company would care if you were being paid or not. You're giving dual, and I'm convinced you'd have no coverage.

Wish it wasn't the case. I've turned down a lot of requests. But I honestly don't want to take off work to subject my aircraft to the FSDOs eyes for the LODA, and jump the insurance hurdles for a possible 5-20 hrs a year of dual. And I'm not going to jeopardize my plane, burn up gas, tires and generally touch-and-go the c#@p out of my plane for $30/hour!

Again, the FAA creates an unsafe situation to protect themselves from some falsely perceived liability.
 
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