JackinMichigan

Well Known Member
Maybe this is not a proper question for this forum, but I am very curious as to what is the difference between certified parts and experimental parts. I see catalogs where an instrument will be 10x higher if certified, while the catalog assures me that they are exactly the same part.

I just ordered a tach drive cap to put on my IO-540. The guy asked me if this is an experimental or certified aircraft because the certified drive cap is a lot more??

I have asked this to knowledgeable aircraft guys and have never received an answer.

Thanks
 
It all about that kittle "Yellow" tag :D

When I was looking at buying my engine the certified was $8000 more just for that little Yellow certified tag.

Now, its not always the case, but generally speaking when you have a very simliar part Certified vs. Experimental you will always save money by not making the manufacturer take on the liability they have when giving the Yellow tag Certified part.
 
I know it is red tape..

Hey guys... this is the same answer I get when I ask. ;) Of course it is red tape and paperwork. Can anybody tell me specifically what hoops the manufacturer has to go thru to get it certified...
 
The guys at Garmin can better answer this since they have both Certified and Experimental equipment.

But, Try to Certify a new Jet and it costs about $1B! Try to Certify a new part and it costs $100,s Thousands of dollars and 1000's of test hours.

All the "time" put into proving the part is reliable costs money...and the fact that after they prove this part that they now have gobs of liability if that oart fails they need more money to fight that failure in court....even if just to prove it was not their fault.

Comes down to Time invested and Liability. None of which the experimental market have to deal with.
 
"Can anybody tell me specifically what hoops the manufacturer has to go thru to get it certified..."

Depends on the type of part, but generally, you have to test and demonstrate (To some body such as the FAA) that the part is fit for duty.

For some parts, this could mean destructive and non-destructive testing, putting stress on the part (thermal, pressure, tension) and ensuring it will perform as advertised. Then it needs to be tested within the system it will be attached to. A part that seems just fine on its own can start behaving in unintended ways when added to a system (metal incompatibilities, vibrations, etc.).

For avionics, you have to meet a bunch of coding and development standards, on top of the physical things. Put your equipment through vibration, thermal testing and so on, but also ensure that code was developped and testing in a such a way as to ensure no (or very very very few bugs), with things like coverage testing, no unused code, unit testing, and keeping the system highly deterministic and sometimes hard real time.

There is a LOT that goes into certification, hence the costs. Some vendors will make the part that is certified (has the paperwork behind it to supports the fact it was tested and so on) available as uncertified part for a lesser price. but that part without paperwork for proof of certification cannot be installed in a certified aircraft.

For example, Van's sells certified and non-certified Lycomings. EXACT same engine, one with, and one without paperwork, the later being less expensive.

Note that one can follow certification-quality processes, tests, methods, etc. without bothering to PROVE it to the FAA. This is done with experimental parts ... I believe Dynon has stated for instance that they follow much of the same approach as for certified avionics internally, but just don't go the extra step of convincing the FAA that they did ... this can lead to high quality non-certified parts.

Other experimental parts manufacturers don't go that far ... that's what you lose in the experimental world ... you don't have the certainty that whatever you're buying was developed and tested thoroughly, to detailed and very high standards ... maybe they were, maybe they weren't. Good research usually helps you weed out the good from the bad, based on your own opinion and research ...
 
Another aspect is the record keeping. To build a certified widget, once you have done all the testing and documenting to prove the design is certifiable, you then have to prove that each individual widget you produce meets that design. So each batch of raw materials has to have paper work and perhaps test samples. Each production process has to be documented and records kept. At the end of mfg it has to be inspected to ensure it complies to the original design. And where the widget doesn't meet the original type design, because you ran out of bolt X and had to use bolt Y, you have document that and prove that it is the functional equivalent.

Also, and this is the big one, if you build your own airplane and you crash, YOU are the mfg, legally speaking, even if it was a quickbuild kit. So far, to my knowledge, the lawyers have not been able to go after the mfgs who built the parts, because the builder is supposed to determine their suitability of those parts for the plane. If that ever changes it will have a big impact on our sport. It might have happened in individual cases, i'm not sure.

We say that an airplane is certified when the weight of the cert documentation is equal to the weight of the airplane. That's probably not far from the truth.
 
So far, to my knowledge, the lawyers have not been able to go after the mfgs who built the parts, because the builder is supposed to determine their suitability of those parts for the plane. If that ever changes it will have a big impact on our sport. It might have happened in individual cases, i'm not sure.

After the John Denver crash the companies that made and sold the fuel valve used were sued. I believe they settled out of court.
 
The answer to the oP's question of why certified parts are so expensive is simple: when only one source exists, the company can raise the price to just short of where a lot of people throw in the towel and walk away.

I still remember my 182 days, when TCM was the sole source for new cylinder assemblies. Then Superior began making them, and overnight the TCM price dropped to 1/2 of the former price. They just charge whatever they can get away with.
 
The answer to the oP's question of why certified parts are so expensive is simple: when only one source exists, the company can raise the price to just short of where a lot of people throw in the towel and walk away.

I still remember my 182 days, when TCM was the sole source for new cylinder assemblies. Then Superior began making them, and overnight the TCM price dropped to 1/2 of the former price. They just charge whatever they can get away with.

DING DING DING DING.......


We have a Winnah!
 
The answer to the oP's question of why certified parts are so expensive is simple: when only one source exists, the company can raise the price to just short of where a lot of people throw in the towel and walk away.

I still remember my 182 days, when TCM was the sole source for new cylinder assemblies. Then Superior began making them, and overnight the TCM price dropped to 1/2 of the former price. They just charge whatever they can get away with.

Part of that is exactly what happens in all heavily regulated industries. The established players end up working the regulations to create barriers to entry for new players in the market. The aviation industry is a good example. Another is the relatively new industry of nicotine vaporizers. For a short time the industry flourished with a number of small entrepeneurial ventures into the new market space. The heavies (read: Philip Morris et al) played on public fears of the new products and "worked with" the FDA to regulate the new products essentially out of existence and bought out the strongest competitors. Now the big players are the only players, because the small folks can't afford the effort to comply with the regulations.

Only the large companies really have the resources to hire dozens or hundreds of people to handle the paperwork and red tape, so they thrive when the entrepeneurs suffer.

Regulatory capture is a common economic theme among many industries.
 
Looks like Garmin just published an article this:

http://garmin.blogs.com/my_weblog/2015/06/the-price-tag-associated-with-certified-avionics.html

It's easy to hate on the certified world for their costs, but I don't think that's always entirely fair ... this leads to some really high quality components. Many certified aircraft fly electronics built before I was *born*. Not too many product categories last that long. For the environment they operate in (Wild temperature differences, turbulence, vibration, etc.) , certified aircraft last a really long time ...

But it's recognized that the certification process may have gone overboard and is now a hinderance to progress more than anything, which is why FAA and EASA and others are going forward with Part 23 revisions.
 
To build a certified widget, once you have done all the testing and documenting to prove the design is certifiable, you then have to prove that each individual widget you produce meets that design.

I can tell you right now, I'm not certified, other than nuts.. No paperwork required!
 
Another Take..

I somewhat disagree with the notion that certified aircraft last a long time (because of their certified parts).

I think it has more to do with the owners of those aircraft and how they treat the aircraft. As an owner of a certified aircraft, it was paramount to take care of it just to be able to AFFORD it. Heaven help you when something broke...get out the checkbook!

So the airplane was babied... hangared if not flying, sun shades if it had to be outside, washed and waxed, kept in a spotless hangar. Every idea known to man to keep the pests out of it, fans to keep the temps down, heaters to keep the temps up, non stop preventative maintenance to PRESERVE the airplane.

I think that given the same treatment, the uncertified version of the airplane would last just as long, if not longer. The uncertified parts can reap the benefits of modern technology, materials, and manufacturing progression whereas once a part is certified, without an act of God, that is what it will always be...not any better or worse than what it was when certified...
 
Part of that is exactly what happens in all heavily regulated industries. The established players end up working the regulations to create barriers to entry for new players in the market. The aviation industry is a good example. Another is the relatively new industry of nicotine vaporizers. For a short time the industry flourished with a number of small entrepeneurial ventures into the new market space. The heavies (read: Philip Morris et al) played on public fears of the new products and "worked with" the FDA to regulate the new products essentially out of existence and bought out the strongest competitors. Now the big players are the only players, because the small folks can't afford the effort to comply with the regulations.

Only the large companies really have the resources to hire dozens or hundreds of people to handle the paperwork and red tape, so they thrive when the entrepeneurs suffer.

Regulatory capture is a common economic theme among many industries.

I can tell you that in the aircraft indusry we do not actively promote additional regulation for the purpose of excluding smaller players. We fight tooth and nail, usually unsuccessfully, to hold the regulators at bay.

And I totally get that companies gouge owners for parts because they cam. Somebody told me that the flap position sensor on a c172' which is basically a pot, is $600, then the gauge, which is nothing more than a volt meter, is another $600. They should be $20 ea by any sensible estimate.

Why does a dog lick his privates? Cause he can.
 
Thanks for the Great Answers

Some great replies.

I worked for an automotive supplier of brakes. We bid and won the contract for the brakes on the HUMMER, the real one, not the GM copy.

I heard it many times, "This is the last time we are going to take a government job". The paper work was extensive, and CHANGES!!! pretty much not allowed unless tons of testing and certification. This was not an aircraft part which I am sure has to be more extensive.

To add to the comment by BobTurner, a single source does make for interesting pricing. We had a young engineer who previously worked for Goodyear Aerospace who made aircraft brakes. He said they lost money building brakes for a commercial or military aircraft, but boy, did they make money on the replacement parts. $600 for brake pads, $2000 for a brake rotor, etc. They were the only approved source.
 
Maybe this is not a proper question for this forum, but I am very curious as to what is the difference between certified parts and experimental parts. I see catalogs where an instrument will be 10x higher if certified, while the catalog assures me that they are exactly the same part.

I just ordered a tach drive cap to put on my IO-540. The guy asked me if this is an experimental or certified aircraft because the certified drive cap is a lot more??

I have asked this to knowledgeable aircraft guys and have never received an answer.

Thanks

Short answer given to me by large instrument manufacturer!
"LAWYERS"
 
Short answer given to me by large instrument manufacturer!
"LAWYERS"

Yes, partly true, but people who want to sue because their loved ones did something completely stupid and (unfortunately) dies, and laws/courts that support that kind of extreme don't help either.

A good competitive environment would help greatly, and barely enough regulations to keep companies honest regarding safety.

Oops, dreaming again. Back to work.