[FlyingArcher]

Dear RVers,

I'm confident there will be at least one chemical engineer out there who will be able to list what are the materials that can be used to build an Ethanol-proof fuel system.

I'm planning to use MoGas in a low compression O-320. I know all the red flags and warnings people will raise about alcohol, but here is a fact: in France, 100LL price is going mad (2.15 Euro/l or $8.15/gallon) and the supply may stop sooner than we think.

So, happy or not, this Lycoming will have to drink our local MoGas that WILL contain between 5 to 10 percent Ethanol, as per E.U. requirements.

If anyone could build a list of Ethanol friendly/not-friendly materials, at least the melting seals or conduits part of the problem could be eliminated.

Thanks

 

[frankh]

Airflow performance

This FI system is 100% compatible with ethanol...The lectric pump will be as well.

What I don't know is if the Lycoming fuel pump is or if the proseal is compatible.

I strongly suspect these last two components are OK but I don't know for sure.

Frank

 

[fliier]

The "ProSeal" Van's uses is Mil-spec, and the spec sheet should be readily available. My recollection is that it is "resistant to alchohol", but you should check. I believe the specification is AMS-S-8802. I got that by looking at the grainy picture of the can on the Van's website.

One thing you could consider is installing the aux tanks sold by Safe-Air. From the photos on the website it APPEARS(?) they are welded aluminum. That would give you 10 gallons or so. You could keep AVGAS in the mains and MOGAS in the tips. You could start and end on AVGAS and burn MOGAS enroute. That way the fuel system components are only exposed to 10% ethanol during flight, and the Pro-Seal never sees MOGAS.

Obviously you would need to do the research, but it's something to consider.
I did a "paper-napkin" analysis and determined my payback was about 7 years. However, at the premium you pay for AVGAS in Europe, your payback might be accelerated.

John Allen

 

[osxuser]

I'm 99% sure that proseal does fine with alcohol, but you should check. Other than that, I don't think there is much that doesn't work with it, just that you will be your own expermenter. And AVgas in the US is FAST reaching that mark ($8) at the bigger airports.

 

[JDRhodes]

Vapor Lock?

Anyone seen any vapor lock problems running 10% ethanol blend fuels in carb Lycomings?

 

[rvator51]

I like the idea, but..

One thing you could consider is installing the aux tanks sold by Safe-Air. From the photos on the website it APPEARS(?) they are welded aluminum. That would give you 10 gallons or so. You could keep AVGAS in the mains and MOGAS in the tips. You could start and end on AVGAS and burn MOGAS enroute. That way the fuel system components are only exposed to 10% ethanol during flight, and the Pro-Seal never sees MOGAS.

John Allen

The Safe-Air tanks (at least mine) drain into the main tanks so the eth blend goes through the main tanks as well. If you modified them to have a 4 position fuel gauge, then they would be separate.

 

[frankh]

Hard to tell

Anyone seen any vapor lock problems running 10% ethanol blend fuels in carb Lycomings?

Almost certainly Kahuna had a VL issue and that (I believe was running 100LL?)..Mogas is more susceptable and ETOH mogas will be more susceptable still.

Now there are so many vairiables...basically the engine don't care

Anyway, a fuel system using a mechanical fuel pump is less than ideal..Period...It has a the pump that is sucking and in a hot location to boot.

A carbed system will be the most susceptable because it runs low pressure (5psi or so).

having said all this there is much you can do to avoid VL..an effective cooling shroud to the mechanical fuel pump, always run the boost pump on takeoff/landing etc.

The very best way is to install electric fuel pumps, preferably in the wingroots, VL is a non issue then.

Frank

 

[Ironflight]

Already off topic....

Dang, and the title of this thread was so promising!

Why does the Ethanol conversation always switch to Vapor Lock? We know of lots of solutions for that, but precious little has been actually researched about the components that might dissolve, swell, or turn gummy from the wrong chemical reaction. I have seen this happen to marine engines I have owned, and it is ugly to fix. Maybe we have no problem with our aviation stuff, but we won't know that from anecdotal evidence (sorry) - we need some real data.


I've said it before - if I could be SURE that I wasn't going to damage the components in my system, I'd run MOGAS (when I could find it) in a heartbeat.

All that stops me is the lack of hard data on the long-term affects of that grain-derived stuff....

Paul

 

[n468ac]

I think the real issue is ...


How much is your life worth?

Running untested fuel in your plane, without long term effects data ... compared to running known fuel with known effects.

I just don't want to be an a plane and have to land off field, just to find out the auto gas caused the problem ... worst ... would be my family finding out from the NTSB that auto gas (cause i was trying to fly cheaper) caused the crash.

 

[Garage Guy]

Texas Skyways data?

Yes it would be nice to see some hard data. I wonder if as a fellow (honorary?) Texan you could shake some loose from Texas Skyways. I emailed them for more information back in January, and got a form letter in response which I include below. For us experimental types, it is actually kind of encouraging; they say they didn't find any real problems with ethanol (or more precisely with AGE-85, which has some additives) while testing for 10 years, though the FAA is reluctant to certify it. Of course automotive E-10 is not the same as AGE-85.

-----------------------------------------
January 16, 2008

Several years ago Texas Skyways, Inc. and South Dakota State University were heavily involved in developing an aviation grade ethanol fuel and getting it approved for use in general aviation aircraft. After years of research and testing, an acceptable fuel was developed primarily by S.D.S.U. Testing of the fuel was accomplished in aircraft owned by Texas Skyways, Inc. and S.D.S.U.

The fuel was tested and flown in Cessna 172, 180, 182, T210, Mooney 201, and other aircraft. The Cessna 180 in particular was operated on Aviation Grade Ethanol fuel (AGE-85) for more than ten years. We experienced no harmful effects, such as those normally attributed to Ethanol, like collecting water, corrosion in aluminum fuel lines and valves, damage to rubber fuel hoses or bladder type fuel tanks. Even in the cold weather of a South Dakota winter, there was no problem starting an engine as long as it was properly primed.

AGE-85, which is 85% corn alcohol, could be mixed in any proportion with 100LL Avgas. We would leave our home base, bladder tanks filled with AGE-85, and stop a refill with 100LL. Since it takes more AGE-85 to produce the same power as 100LL, an adjustment of the mixture control was all that was necessary when switching from one fuel to the other.

The only modification necessary to the aircraft was a larger jet in the carburetor, or more fuel thru the fuel injection system. After years of testing and research, Texas Skyways, Inc. was issued Supplemental Type Certificate number SA09530SC to modify our 250 horsepower model O-470-T/TS to use AGE-85 fuel and Supplemental Type Certificate number SA09531SC to install this engine in any Cessna 180 or 182 up thru the 182R.

We have attempted to expand our approvals to other aircraft and engine models but have been met by the F.A.A. with near impossible requirements.

What?s the future for the Ethanol in aviation? Ethanol is a very good substitute for 100LL; however, with the negative attitude displayed to us by the F.A.A., we realize it will be very difficult to get the better and safer fuel approved. Much work has been done and small successes have been achieved; however, without more funding than we have, we must concentrate on profitable projects fro now.

Sincerely,

Jack Johnson
President, Texas Skyways, Inc.
1-830-755-8989

 

[frankh]

Need a little VL in the morning

Dang, and the title of this thread was so promising!

Why does the Ethanol conversation always switch to Vapor Lock? We know of lots of solutions for that, but precious little has been actually researched about the components that might dissolve, swell, or turn gummy from the wrong chemical reaction. I have seen this happen to marine engines I have owned, and it is ugly to fix. Maybe we have no problem with our aviation stuff, but we won't know that from anecdotal evidence (sorry) - we need some real data.


I've said it before - if I could be SURE that I wasn't going to damage the components in my system, I'd run MOGAS (when I could find it) in a heartbeat.

All that stops me is the lack of hard data on the long-term affects of that grain-derived stuff....

Paul

Sure hard data....Quote...The AFP FI system is compatible with 100% ethanol or any mixture therof with Gasoline or 100LL.....Don Rivera....

Seems hard enough to me....Now you need to know about the mech Fuel pump, if you insist on using such a ghastly device and the proseal.

As to the fuel lines, they SHOULD be teflon lined (mine are) and ethanol won't touch those.

Seems from a material compatibility POV your already a god way there.

Oh and AFP rebuilds Bendix FI systems so I'm sure they can give you and answer on those systems as well.

Frank
IO360 Mogas for nearly 300 hours AFP FI system...No ETOH yet

 

[frankh]

Of course

I think the real issue is ...


How much is your life worth?

Running untested fuel in your plane, without long term effects data ... compared to running known fuel with known effects.

I just don't want to be an a plane and have to land off field, just to find out the auto gas caused the problem ... worst ... would be my family finding out from the NTSB that auto gas (cause i was trying to fly cheaper) caused the crash.

You are certianly welcome to chose your own path, but realistically we are WAY beyond the point where the effects of running mogas are not known...There is at least 1100hours of experience on this forum alone of mogas use (800 hours for rocketbob and 300 for me)...And probably much more.

The standard fuel system leaves much to be desired but it seems to work and the engine just doesn't care, assuming reasonable compression ratios and timing.

Personally if I never see 100LL as long as I live it will be too soon...but thats the path I've chosen.

Frank

 

[Ironflight]

Sure hard data....Quote...The AFP FI system is compatible with 100% ethanol or any mixture therof with Gasoline or 100LL.....Don Rivera....

Seems hard enough to me....Now you need to know about the mech Fuel pump, if you insist on using such a ghastly device and the proseal.

As to the fuel lines, they SHOULD be teflon lined (mine are) and ethanol won't touch those.

Seems from a material compatibility POV your already a god way there.

Oh and AFP rebuilds Bendix FI systems so I'm sure they can give you and answer on those systems as well.

Frank
IO360 Mogas for nearly 300 hours AFP FI system...No ETOH yet

Yes Frank, I understand that the AFP FI system is alchohol proof, as you have posted many times. But the OP didn't say that is what he was using. There are large numbers of airplanes out there with old-fashioned carbs, low pressure fuel pumps, diaphram mechanical pumps, etc - all of which are exposed to the fuel. Specific answers for a specific configuration is useful, but doesn't help those who don't have that configuration.

Paul

 

[Ted Johns]

"There are large numbers of airplanes out there with old-fashioned carbs, low pressure fuel pumps, diaphragm mechanical pumps..."

Well, the original poster was wondering if there are ethanol proof components available, not about the ethanol tolerance of antique components.

That being said, I agree that it would be useful information.

It's obvious that the technology for ethanol tolerance exists in the automotive world. Has it leaked (sorry) over to the aviation world yet?

 

[n468ac]

You are certianly welcome to chose your own path, but realistically we are WAY beyond the point where the effects of running mogas are not known...There is at least 1100hours of experience on this forum alone of mogas use (800 hours for rocketbob and 300 for me)...And probably much more.

The standard fuel system leaves much to be desired but it seems to work and the engine just doesn't care, assuming reasonable compression ratios and timing.

Personally if I never see 100LL as long as I live it will be too soon...but thats the path I've chosen.

Frank

Frank I didn't know you were running auto gas.


What, if any changes did you have to make to run auto gas?

Any issues yet?

 

[frankh]

Sure i redesigned my

whole fuel system to make it hydraulically correct.

search o my posts for the decription of my system

But the standard system appears to work too with some precautions..like a good blast of cold air to the emchanical pump.

But I gotta go fly some instrument approaches so I'll be back later

ciao

Frank

 

[Jeff R]

I am wondering if the politicians will reverse themselves and stop mandating ethanol in fuel. I think they were mislead by the farming lobby and environmentalists on the good things of ethanol, and didn't consider the negatives, i.e escalating food prices and lowered gas milage. If the voters get fed up with higher food prices and lowered gas milage for increasingly expensive fuel, there might soon be a bit of a revolt to get ethanol out of fuel.

 

[m3tt5]

I am wondering if the politicians will reverse themselves and stop mandating ethanol in fuel.* I think they were mislead by the farming lobby and environmentalists on the good things of ethanol, and didn't consider the negatives, i.e escalating food prices and lowered gas milage.* If the voters get fed up with higher food prices and lowered gas milage for increasingly expensive fuel, there might soon be a bit of a revolt to get ethanol out of fuel.

Here we go again somebody with all the answers. I THOUGHT we were not suppose to talk about POLITICS on the forum. I got a idea how about everybody give up their hobbys go to work and then stay home that would save a lot of gas. Otherwise I can not see how somebody that is building a $60,000 to $100,000 airplane can complain about food, fuel and whatever else their is to complain about. Thats all I am going to say about this.

 

[FlyingArcher]

Components

A real thank you to all of you who tried to address my real question.

As Paul said, my request is about fuel system components and their reaction to Ethanol exposure. Of course, having an old-fashioned carbed O-320 available, I'd be more than happy if I don't NEED to convert it to FI in order to fly as safely as possible.

I certainly didn't want to (re)start a debate about how appropriate Ethanol is, having stated that in my case the choice WILL be very limited.

The Texas Skyways text is typically the kind of information I'm looking for, not because it goes my way, but because it's related to experience and knowledge.

I hope this thread will live long enough to collect valuable data for the community, in case the worst (100LL discontinuation) happens.

Thanks

 

[Piloto.Mendes]

Dang, and the title of this thread was so promising!

Why does the Ethanol conversation always switch to Vapor Lock? We know of lots of solutions for that, but precious little has been actually researched about the components that might dissolve, swell, or turn gummy from the wrong chemical reaction. I have seen this happen to marine engines I have owned, and it is ugly to fix. Maybe we have no problem with our aviation stuff, but we won't know that from anecdotal evidence (sorry) - we need some real data.


I've said it before - if I could be SURE that I wasn't going to damage the components in my system, I'd run MOGAS (when I could find it) in a heartbeat.

All that stops me is the lack of hard data on the long-term affects of that grain-derived stuff....

Paul

I don't understand the concern about vapor lock.

A brazilian company, known by Aeroalcool (http://www.aeroalcool.com.br/vantagens.htm), which sells STC engines converted to ethanol, states that are many advantagens with ethanol. One of them is that VAPOR LOCK IS SMALL PROBLEM WITH ETHANOL ENGINES.

From its website

"5. Menor press?o de vapor

A menor press?o de vapor do ?lcool aumenta a seguran?a, pois evita a forma??o de bolhas de vapor na tubula??o de alimenta??o da aeronave.

Este fen?meno causa v?rios acidentes graves anualmente no Brasil, principalmente em regi?es de clima quente, onde a gasolina vaporiza dentro da tubula??o, causando um bloqueio na passagem do fluxo. "

Above means:

5. Less vapor pressure.

Ethanol less vapor pressure increases safety, because it avoids vapor bubble formation inside aircraft fuel lines.

This situation is related to many major accidents every year in Brazil, mainly in hot weather areas, where gasoline evaporate inside the line, creating a flux blockage.

 

[Piloto.Mendes]

I don't understand the concern about vapor lock.

A brazilian company, known by Aeroalcool (http://www.aeroalcool.com.br/vantagens.htm), which sells STC engines converted to ethanol, states that are many advantagens with ethanol. One of them is that VAPOR LOCK IS SMALL PROBLEM WITH ETHANOL ENGINES.

From its website

"5. Menor pressão de vapor

A menor pressão de vapor do álcool aumenta a segurança, pois evita a formação de bolhas de vapor na tubulação de alimentação da aeronave.

Este fenômeno causa vários acidentes graves anualmente no Brasil, principalmente em regiões de clima quente, onde a gasolina vaporiza dentro da tubulação, causando um bloqueio na passagem do fluxo. "

Above means:

5. Less vapor pressure.

Ethanol less vapor pressure increases safety, because it avoids vapor bubble formation inside aircraft fuel lines.

This situation is related to many major accidents every year in Brazil, mainly in hot weather areas, where gasoline evaporate inside the line, creating a flux blockage.

We (brazilians) use ethanol since 1970. We had some problems at the begining due to sortage, caused by farmers wanting to increase fuel price.

Nowadays there is no problem with flex cars that can use ethanol, gas ou any mixture of both. Depending on the price, I fuel it up with the one wich is cheaper. It's possible because of the eletronic injection system developed.

I prefer to use ethanol. Enviromental benefits? Of course. But it isn't that all, fuel filter, spark plug are cleaner at each maintance. I have a bit more power, and a lot more torque also.

To drive a distance, ethanol require a quarter more fuel than our gasoline (has 22-24% of ethanol).

Ideal world would be to have a plane that coulde use AVGAS, MOGAS ou ETHANOL. Is it really ideal? I'd be glad to own a "flex plane"

 

[JHines]

I intend to build "flex"

Not because of any urge to use fuel with ETOH, just to be ready for the inevitable. The identified problems I've seen are:

1. Component incompatibility. Solution, use AFP injection and coated fuel lines. Tanks - maybe OK with standard use of Proseal (?) and might require Alodine (?)

2. Vapor lock. Solution, use Frankh's fuel system configuration, cool under-cowl components, and/or find some way to pressurize the tanks (exhaust bleed, maybe?)

3. ETOH holding water in tanks leading to high-altitude freezing in fuel lines: This is the big uknown. Hard to find any real data if it's a significant risk. Solutions might be heating/insulating the fuel lines, a giant water trap in the fuel system...(?)

 

[Piloto.Mendes]

Not because of any urge to use fuel with ETOH, just to be ready for the inevitable. The identified problems I've seen are:

1. Component incompatibility. Solution, use AFP injection and coated fuel lines. Tanks - maybe OK with standard use of Proseal (?) and might require Alodine (?)

2. Vapor lock. Solution, use Frankh's fuel system configuration, cool under-cowl components, and/or find some way to pressurize the tanks (exhaust bleed, maybe?)

3. ETOH holding water in tanks leading to high-altitude freezing in fuel lines: This is the big uknown. Hard to find any real data if it's a significant risk. Solutions might be heating/insulating the fuel lines, a giant water trap in the fuel system...(?)

Something very important to consider. Aeroalcool sells its converted engines mostly to farm airplanes - they fly low. Freezing is really something I hadn't thought about

 

[JHines]

additives

As far as I know this can be addressed with the additive "Prist" which is used in turbine powered aircraft. According to the manufacturer it can be used with piston engines as well, although a "hardware" solution would be preferable.

 

[frankh]

ETOH

Not because of any urge to use fuel with ETOH, just to be ready for the inevitable. The identified problems I've seen are:

1. Component incompatibility. Solution, use AFP injection and coated fuel lines. Tanks - maybe OK with standard use of Proseal (?) and might require Alodine (?)

2. Vapor lock. Solution, use Frankh's fuel system configuration, cool under-cowl components, and/or find some way to pressurize the tanks (exhaust bleed, maybe?)

3. ETOH holding water in tanks leading to high-altitude freezing in fuel lines: This is the big uknown. Hard to find any real data if it's a significant risk. Solutions might be heating/insulating the fuel lines, a giant water trap in the fuel system...(?)

I wouldn't worry about coating fuel lines or aloding fuel tanks..The fuel lines is a non issue and I'm having a hard time believing there is an issue with the tanks...As Paul Dye points out thogh I don't know for certain..But personally I think its a non issue...Sure if you haven't built the tanks yet and its easy to Alodine, then why not?

If you use the winroot pump system (certainly with FI'd becuase the pressure runs at 35psi +) there rallys in need to cool the under cowl components further..Now this is based on my experience with a James cowl and plenum.

I have had slight stumbling at initial full power due to warmed injector lines but it goes away almost immediately.

As to ETOH fallingout of slolution..I have to agree with you, not much real data...The AGE 85 folks mention using a hYgrometer to check for the amount of disolved water...but if it fails...then what do u do with all that fuel?

Frank

 

[frankh]

Oops

rallys in need to cool the under cowl components further

should read..Really is no need to...

 

[WildBill]

A list it is not but, theres some good info here on ethanol materials compatibility:

http://www.cgar.org/information_research.asp?E=1&PROJID=10
http://www.efunda.com/designstandards/oring/oring_chemical.cfm?SM=none&SC=Ethanol
http://www.environment.gov.au/atmos...lications/2000hours-non-automotive/index.html
www.ethanolrfa.org/objects/documents/1559/state_of_mn_e20_executive_summary.pdf
http://www.age85.org/

http://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy06osti/40243.pdf
(page 14)

 

[JHines]

I<SNIP>

As to ETOH fallingout of slolution..I have to agree with you, not much real data...The AGE 85 folks mention using a hYgrometer to check for the amount of disolved water...but if it fails...then what do u do with all that fuel?

Frank

I THINK the engine can tolerate a fair amount of LIQUID water in the fuel supply before there are bad consequences.

I think it's probably unlikely the fuel would hold enough water to freeze in the tank (at least if we're talking gasoline with ETOH, not straight ETOH).

I would think the pressure/temperature conditions downstream of the pump(s) would not favor freezing.

So that leaves the fuel lines between the tanks and the pump as the freezing danger zone. At least with FI having boost pumps in the wingsroots that should be a pretty short run, a good deal longer with conventional configurations.

 

[Jeff R]

Here we go again somebody with all the answers. I THOUGHT we were not suppose to talk about POLITICS on the forum. I got a idea how about everybody give up their hobbys go to work and then stay home that would save a lot of gas. Otherwise I can not see how somebody that is building a $60,000 to $100,000 airplane can complain about food, fuel and whatever else their is to complain about. Thats all I am going to say about this.

Feel free to refute my statements if you disagree, but this ranting and bashing is a bit off the wall and hardly based on anything I actually wrote. Heck, I read in the paper this morning that the Missouri legislature is thinking of banning ethanol in fuel for the reasons I indicated. I figured pilots would applaud this.

 

[Aden Rich]

Fuel

I have a flex fuel Ford Ranger and it actually costs more money to drive with the E-85 than it does to run regular since the E-85 is 30% less potent. I can see the same happening in an aircraft engine to run ethanol containing gas to save money. We might be forced into it due to the phasing out of 100LL for the EPA lead restrictions that are coming up in 2011? And I would agree with the some of the above statements that ethanol is not a saving solution to going green. I have read and watched several shows and articles that were very detailed and they all came to the conclusions that we are using more energy to produce ethanol than it gives out. So in short, we are actually putting more CO2 in the air than just burning regular gas/100LL. Just because the government is pushing it doesn't mean it's the right way to go and it will be a political fight. We are all going to be faced with this upcoming issue in short order and we should be voicing out concerns with the EAA and AOPA to get solutions going for this problem now.

 

[Piloto.Mendes]

I have a flex fuel Ford Ranger and it actually costs more money to drive with the E-85 than it does to run regular since the E-85 is 30% less potent. I can see the same happening in an aircraft engine to run ethanol containing gas to save money. We might be forced into it due to the phasing out of 100LL for the EPA lead restrictions that are coming up in 2011? And I would agree with the some of the above statements that ethanol is not a saving solution to going green. I have read and watched several shows and articles that were very detailed and they all came to the conclusions that we are using more energy to produce ethanol than it gives out. So in short, we are actually putting more CO2 in the air than just burning regular gas/100LL. Just because the government is pushing it doesn't mean it's the right way to go and it will be a political fight. We are all going to be faced with this upcoming issue in short order and we should be voicing out concerns with the EAA and AOPA to get solutions going for this problem now.

So ethanol in US is too expensive. An ethanol gallon here (Brazil) is 3.3, AVGAS is 9.2.

 

[Noah]

How 'bout we, umm, test some proseal?

May I propose a test?

Whoever is doing their tanks and has some proseal on hand, stick a good glop into the bottom of a clean canning jar. Let it cure, fill the jar with ethanol or ethanol / gasoline, put the lid on, and check it periodically. This will not necessarily tell us if it is OK, but it MAY tell us quickly if there is a BIG compatibility problem. This might be a wee bit more useful to answering the OP's question than one or two dozen well-meaning but uninformed, or misinformed opinions debating ad nauseum.

Forden's Theorem:
10 Opinions = 1 "Expert" Opinion
10 "Expert" Opinions = 1 Analysis
10 Analyses = 1 Test

You do the math...

 

[SvingenB]

I have a flex fuel Ford Ranger and it actually costs more money to drive with the E-85 than it does to run regular since the E-85 is 30% less potent. I can see the same happening in an aircraft engine to run ethanol containing gas to save money. We might be forced into it due to the phasing out of 100LL for the EPA lead restrictions that are coming up in 2011? And I would agree with the some of the above statements that ethanol is not a saving solution to going green. I have read and watched several shows and articles that were very detailed and they all came to the conclusions that we are using more energy to produce ethanol than it gives out. So in short, we are actually putting more CO2 in the air than just burning regular gas/100LL. Just because the government is pushing it doesn't mean it's the right way to go and it will be a political fight. We are all going to be faced with this upcoming issue in short order and we should be voicing out concerns with the EAA and AOPA to get solutions going for this problem now.

The SAAB BioPower (turbo charged flexi fuel versions) increases the fuel consumption by 30-35% running on E85 compared with gasoline. On the other hand, the max HP is also increased from 150 to 180 (on one of their 2.0L versions), by automatically adjusting more boost I guess? They advertice by promising a more fun ride and a better conscience by running on E-85 on their turbocharged BioPower models To me this seems just like some wierd gimmick, since SAAB has produced 200+ HP turbocharged 2.0L gasoline engines for decades.

Anyway, ethanol mixed with 60% water is still prefectly fluid, but with slightly higher viscosity, at -20 deg C. Tried and tested with akevitt. I don't see how water should be any problem whatsoever in E-85, any amount of water would just mix right in, and we are not talking 60% water, maybe 0.1% max.

 

[cheathco]

Anyone seen any vapor lock problems running 10% ethanol blend fuels in carb Lycomings?

I have run mogas up to a few months ago when supply started adding ethanol. Vapor lock a given on warm/hot day after long taxie, or plane sitting for a while. use one tank 100ll in warm months for takeoff. First experienced it durring takeoff from Winder Ga. Now burning 100ll all the time, Im sure ethanol will make problem worse. Charlie heathco Fayetteville ar

 

[N1593Y]

>...
I hope this thread will live long enough to collect valuable data for the community, in case the worst (100LL discontinuation) happens.
Thanks

If you have an O-320, and now the Lycoming O-360 and IO-360, it won't make any difference if 100 LL goes away. The only thing that would go away is the TEL, either by legal mandate or the only factory in the world that makes it burns down or decides to quit making it. The result will be 100 LL without the LL, which is about a 91 / 98 avgas and all of the Lycs listed above will work just fine. Lycoming just announced that they were going to certify the O-360 and IO-360 for AKI 93 unleaded gasoline. The only people that need to worry are the BIG turbo engines that actually need 100 LL, all the rest of us could use 100 LL without the lead in it, but unfortunately the 30% of the G/A engines that actually need 100 LL represent 70% of the 100 LL gasoline demand and none of the alphabet groups are willing to back a program to take the lead out of 100 LL for the 70% of us that could use it. So instead we have to put up with all the political problems of dealing with ethanol in mogas.

 

[Pilottonny]

Ethanol is minor problem

Since I am planning on running Mogas (at the moment with 5% ethanol in Europe , but not really because the supply is just not there yet), I checked with all the suppliers of my engine (fuel) parts. The only problems I came across are:

- Vans tank drains: change the O-rings!
- Vans fuel caps: change the O-rings!

All other items (Airflow fuel pump, Airflow fuel injection, pro-seal, etc.) are fine. (I got all the info by phone so there is no guarantee).


BTW: Avgas @ EUR 2,15/lt = $ 12,50/gal !!!

Regards, Tonny.

 

[frankh]

Thats interesting

I can understand the o rings in the fuel drains...but the orings in the caps are brown in colour...To my knowledge brown indicates the material is Viton and I thought Viton was resistand to ethanol...

I have a materials compatibility database at work so i can check that out...Am I correct in thinking brown o ring = viton?

Can we get viton (or whatever the compatible material is) o rings for the fuelt ank drains??

Thanks

Frank

 

[Sam Buchanan]

I can understand the o rings in the fuel drains...but the orings in the caps are brown in colour...To my knowledge brown indicates the material is Viton and I thought Viton was resistand to ethanol...

I have a materials compatibility database at work so i can check that out...Am I correct in thinking brown o ring = viton?

Can we get viton (or whatever the compatible material is) o rings for the fuelt ank drains??

Thanks

Frank

Along a similar line, anyone know a source for Viton material in sheet form (~1/16" thick)? The gas tank cap gasket on my kit car is getting soft and needs to be replaced with something that can tolerate ethanol.

 

[dpansier]

Viton Sheet

McMaster Carr has Viton rubber sheet, part number 86075K22, 1x16"x 6" x 6" for $8.85.

 

[Sam Buchanan]

McMaster Carr has Viton rubber sheet, part number 86075K22, 1x16"x 6" x 6" for $8.85.

Perfect. Thanks!

 

[az_gila]

Parts of the problem...

..... The result will be 100 LL without the LL, which is about a 91 / 98 avgas and all of the Lycs listed above will work just fine. Lycoming just announced that they were going to certify the O-360 and IO-360 for AKI 93 unleaded gasoline. .....

Not quite N1593Y...

Lycoming may be certifying the O-360 and O-320, but if you read their press release, they say that the engine certification is not enough.

The airframe needs to be tested. This is similar to the STC testing for mogas in the Grummans... it is available for the O-320 powered Cheetahs, but not for the higher powered O-360 Tigers with similar fuel systems.

Mr Petersen - the STC holder - has stated to the Grumman group that the Tiger testing would be quite different because of the higher fuel flows, and he doubted that the airfame would pass without modifications.

This is similar to our higher powered RVs.... the engine is only one part of the problem...

 

[frankh]

And presumably

Not quite N1593Y...

Lycoming may be certifying the O-360 and O-320, but if you read their press release, they say that the engine certification is not enough.

The airframe needs to be tested. This is similar to the STC testing for mogas in the Grummans... it is available for the O-320 powered Cheetahs, but not for the higher powered O-360 Tigers with similar fuel systems.

Mr Petersen - the STC holder - has stated to the Grumman group that the Tiger testing would be quite different because of the higher fuel flows, and he doubted that the airfame would pass without modifications.

This is similar to our higher powered RVs.... the engine is only one part of the problem...

The airframe modification would be to put a fuel pump at the low point of the system.

Frank

 

[N1593Y]

Not quite N1593Y...
Lycoming may be certifying the O-360 and O-320, but if you read their press release, they say that the engine certification is not enough....

Didn't mean to confuse anyone. I thought we were talking about engines in experimentals, not type certificated airplanes, which of course would require an airframe certification too.

 

[az_gila]

Systems

Didn't mean to confuse anyone. I thought we were talking about engines in experimentals, not type certificated airplanes, which of course would require an airframe certification too.

We are... the point I was making is that the airframe needs to be evaluated (and possible modified) for the system to work...

The engine is only part of the analysis/testing that is needed.

gil A

 

[frankh]

Exactly

We are... the point I was making is that the airframe needs to be evaluated (and possible modified) for the system to work...

The engine is only part of the analysis/testing that is needed.

gil A

VL is a real issue that can kill you, its not just "Government intervention"..

Frank

 

[TSwezey]

Test

I will be putting autogas with 10% ethanol in my tanks on Saturday. I will let you know if it ever leaks. Autogas with 10% ethanol has been in my fuel system not including the tanks for over a year now. Don't have any leaks and everything works.

 

[frankh]

You mean

10% ETOH has been in your fuel system INCLUDING the tanks for over a year??

Well cool I will be most interested in the results..if its 10 ETOH vs 100LL I know which one I'd like to burn if I have a choice.

Frank

Hoping to head to Denver on Saturday form Western Oregon.

 

[TSwezey]

The 10% has not been in the tanks yet only the fuel system. But you have to remember I have a car engine in my airplane so your engine might not do as well on 10%.

 

[frankh]

I am convinced

My IO 360 doesn't care..I made sure to build it with fuel system components that are compatible with Ethanol.

Now boiling in the fuel injector lines leading to rough idle when hot..yes it may do that (almost certainly will) but other than that there is no reason it won't run just fine.

All of this is to say you have the same "Potential" issues I do, i.e the extra dissolved water dropping out of solution etc..Are these real issues...I honestly don't know..

Cheers

Frank

 

[TSwezey]

Hopefully I won't get there one day and find 60 gallons of fuel has leaked out of my tanks! Last year somebody here did some tests on proseal and other items to see if they would breakdown. I believe everything survived.