N941WR

Legacy Member
In the past I have posted about the great location I selected for the placement of my ELT. I was so proud of the door I cut in the baggage compartment floor to hide the ELT.

This morning one of our EAA chapter tech inspectors paid me a visit and told me I will have to move the ELT to on top of the baggage compartment floor as any other location would be in violation of the FAR's. Apparently the ELT has to be accessible and putting it behind a door, even one with thumb screws isn?t considered accessible. :(

I guess I can always turn that door into a compartment to hold a quart of oil like Dan did.

Just wanted to let everyone know that what I thought was a good idea, isn't such a good idea.

BTW, I also asked him about all the RV?s with their ELT's located behind the baggage compartment bulkhead. He replied that is not a good position either and any ELT back there should be moved.
 
Hold on a second...

N941WR said:
....... also asked him about all the RV?s with their ELT's located behind the baggage compartment bulkhead. He replied that is not a good position either and any ELT back there should be moved.
Bill,

I do know of a local RV-7 that got gigged by an FAA inspector from the local FSDO because the ELT was mounted forward of the main spar.
cabin3120ga.jpg
In the case of your ELT location, I'd say....not necessarily. Like so many areas of aviation, interpretation can be an arbitrary and highly personal thing. A technical counselor may certainly have opinions but in the end has no real authority and can only advise. Unless that tech counselor also happens to be the DAR who is going to eventually issue you the airworthiness certificate, I'd forgo any immediate modification just to satisfy his personal bias. My ELT is mounted in virtually the same place as yours and with screws...not thumbscrews...and the DAR (who DOES have the weight of the FAA behind him and subsequently issued my airworthiness certificate) thought its placement was clever. He is fully aware that its location would not be allowed in a certificated airplane, but then he knows full well we are building experimental airplanes.

Rick Galati RV-6A "Darla"
 
Last edited:
Hi Bill,

Did he point you to any particular FAR that you would be violating? I've never heard that the ELT has to be accessible, though it may have to have a remote display if it's not. I had every intention of putting mine under the baggage cover on the RV-8, but maybe I'll hold off to hear what others have to say about this.

Either way, thanks for the heads up.

Rusty
 
Rick6a said:
In your case, I'd say....not necessarily. Like so many areas of aviation, interpretation can be an arbitrary and highly personal thing. A technical counselor may certainly have opinions but in the end has no real authority and can only advise. Unless that tech counselor is also the DAR who is going to eventually issue you the airworthiness certificate, I'd forgo any immediate modification just to satisfy his personal bias. My ELT is mounted in virtually the same place as yours and with screws...not thumbscrews...and the DAR (who DOES have the weight of the FAA behind him and subsequently issued my airworthiness certificate) thought its placement was clever. He is fully aware that its location would not be allowed in a certificated airplane, but then he knows full well we are building experimental airplanes.

In fact - I think that such a location is allowed on at least some certified airplanes. I used to fly a (certified) Grob that was behind a screwed down panel and not accessible in flight (or even on the ground without breaking out the screwdriver). I presume that having the accessible remote activation panel is sufficient.
 
Mine is behind the rear baggage compartment under a screwed down sheet metal cover. I have seen nothing that would suggest this is illegal.

The success record of ELTs actually performing their function in a crash is dismal so easy access is not a real concern.
 
This is just darn stupid!

Ok, here's the layout in my *certified*, *new*, cessna 182T!

The ELT is in the TAIL! yep, behind the baggage bulkhead, behind the rear radio compartment (this is a G1000 182 and the radios are also in the tail). It's mounted on the side of the fuselage about 8' forward of the horz stab. Only access is thru a panel on the outside of the other side of the fuse and it has 12 phillips head screws holding it on. It's about right in the middle of the N number.

I would consider a call to the FSDO and ask, but if the cert guys can do, I see no reason that you can't.
 
TC / DAR and ELT location

Ask the Tech Counselor what FAR you are in violation of. Check FAR 91.207. I do not see a location requirement. 91.207 (b) covers attachement. 91.207 (d) (1) covers installation. It just says proper installation.
http://www.risingup.com/fars/info/part91-207-FAR.shtml

Please let me know what you find.

If the DAR says something wrong (incorrect), contact his managing office and speak with his Principle Inspector or the office manager. Same goes with any FAA Inspector. (Speak to his supervisor or manager.)

I do not think you are in violation if the arrow on the ELT is pointed in the proper direction, the ELT is TSO 91(a), the battery date is good, and there is a log entry saying it was inspected in accordance with 91.207 (d).

BTW. My ELT is BEHIND the bagage compart closeout. You must take screws out to get to it. There is a remote indicator / reset panel up front where the pilot can reach it.

Gary A. Sobek
EAA TC
FAA DAR
RV-6, N157GS, 1,840+ flying hours
http://www.AB-DAR.com

N941WR said:
In the past I have posted about the great location I selected for the placement of my ELT. I was so proud of the door I cut in the baggage compartment floor to hide the ELT.

This morning one of our EAA chapter tech inspectors paid me a visit and told me I will have to move the ELT to on top of the baggage compartment floor as any other location would be in violation of the FAR's. Apparently the ELT has to be accessible and putting it behind a door, even one with thumb screws isn?t considered accessible. :(

I guess I can always turn that door into a compartment to hold a quart of oil like Dan did.

Just wanted to let everyone know that what I thought was a good idea, isn't such a good idea.

BTW, I also asked him about all the RV?s with their ELT's located behind the baggage compartment bulkhead. He replied that is not a good position either and any ELT back there should be moved.
 
ELT location

Before calling his superiors why don't you contact him and tell him your interpetation, back it with facts. Perhaps he is unaware and only trying to help.
Tom
Northern California
 
You want me to do WHAT!

N941WR said:
In the past I have posted about the great location I selected for the placement of my ELT. I was so proud of the door I cut in the baggage compartment floor to hide the ELT.
I am 99% sure you where fine. Accessible does not mean visible. Also most installation instructions that come with ELT's say do not put in a baggage compartment where it can be hit or damaged. A big label in red ELT HERE would do it. Since it is required and a TSO item it must be installed by the manufactures instruction. Clearly there is some interpretation but you "recessed compartment with a door" is fine. My instructions say easily retrieved for maintenance. Your set up looks like it fills the bill.

The only controversy is the typical instruction: "...as far aft as PRACTICAL." Well if you say it is not practical to mount aft of the baggage bulkhead, than it is not practical; your location is fine and as far aft as practical.

I think he is just jealous because it is so slick. :rolleyes: My instruction says do not mount it IN a baggage space if subject to possible damage. Mounting it unprotected in the baggage compartment would not fly according to my Artex ELT instructions. Your recessed location is well protected.

The bigger issue is how people mount their ELT antenna, but that is a topic for another time. For the record it says: exterior, vertical, on top of the fuselage. Not much interpretation when mounting it hidden horizontal under the tail intersection fairing.

Bill it is a great idea and this guy is wrong.

G :)
 
Last edited:
Thanks guys

I really don't want to move the ELT. He did say that he would mark it down as a safety concern if I didn't move it. Is that like putting something on my "permanent record"?

I did buy the ELT sticker similar to the one Rick used. It arrived a few hours after the Tech Inspector left, figures. Maybe that will get me through.

I'll have to check the manual regarding placing my ELT in the baggage compartment and see if I can't use that little bit of info with the guy.

In case anyone was wondering, I mounted the ELT tray to the rib and not the floor of the aircraft. This is a better picture.

The strobe power head is tucked under the left side of the baggage compartment floor.

All this was done to keep the weight out of the tail and towards the center of the plane.
 
Last edited:
I've been a EAA tech counselor for about 25 years and a DAR for seven. Tech counselors have NO authority to place anything in any records other than the report sent to EAA. Tech counselors are strickly advisory by definition. The only place these reports go is to EAA.
Many certificated aircraft have the ELT mounted in the tail cone (not readily accessable).
What MUST be accessable to the pilot is the remote switch. This must be within sight and reach from the pilot's seat.
Mel...DAR
 
The man is wrong

Bill I can tell you are trying to do the right thing and respect this man but he is wrong. The ELT in my Archer was in the tailcone just forward of the stabilator. A screwdriver was required to remove the external fuselage access plate to replace the big orange battery every two years. In my RV-6A it is aft of the bagage compartment bulkhead where it has to come through some aluminum before it can hit me in the back. This can be thought of as a safety provision. The man needs to be straightened out as his incorrect ideas can affect many other builders as well.

Bob Axsom
 
Yep, Beechcraft have it mounted in the very tail, only access through a external panel. Most cessnas mount it behind the aft cabin bulkhead, mooneys in the side panel with the battery.
 
Two instances to the contrary ....

Bill,

There are those of us who can offer the person a different perspective. Maybe he is unaware and needs to be given some certified and experimental (RV) examples that have not only been done but have had "official" scrutiny in the "real world". Examples below ...

1. My (certified) Piper has the ELT mounted in the TAIL. Access is from the OUTSIDE of the plane via a cover plate.

2. The (experimental) RV6 has the ELT mounted aft of the baggage bulkhead. During SnF last year, I accidentally hit the (recessed) **remote** button while removing some dust or something that someone had blown into the plane (they were not paying much attention). I left the plane without knowing this had been done. Later got a call from somebody sound really important and official saying I needed to get in touch and meet them at the plane regarding ELT. Well when I got there and discovered what had happened a few interesting things happened.
a. The two guys were really nice.
b. They said I had to retrieve the ELT for them to see the serial number ("No problem sir!"). Can you imagine getting into the baggage compartment with a screwdriver in front of the SnF crowd?? :)
c. They said I had to put in new batteries and note the entry (the ELT had been on for more than one hour I think)
d. The commented that they had LOOKED for the antenna and were surprised they could not find it (under the empenage fairing ... horizontal). They thought that was pretty slick.

There were NO negative comments. They (we) chuckled about the fact that the people that monitor the satellites called and said there was an activated ELT at Lakeland Airport .. would someone go track it down. "No problem, we only have a few THOUSAND possibilities! :) But they did find me, so it all worked and worked out fine.

James
 
Bill,

Let us know what the DAR says. I followed your ELT and strobe power supply locations. I wanted the ELT accessible (I used thumbscrews on the hatch), but out of the baggage compartment to save room and keep it from accidentally getting knocked.

Also, where did you get the sticker from?

Dave
 
gmcjetpilot said:
The bigger issue is how people mount their ELT antenna, but that is a topic for another time. For the record it says: exterior, vertical, on top of the fuselage. Not much interpretation when mounting it hidden horizontal under the tail intersection fairing. G :)

Hey, no time like the present :D

I was just looking at the antenna mount situation on the RV-8. The AK-450 I just opened now comes with a shorter, carbon fiber type antenna, with a nice streamlined base. Someone tell me how this can mount on the top of an RV-8 within 20 degrees of vertical as stated in the manual. Probably going to stuff it under the empennage fairing as originally planned.

Funny though, I can't think of a single RV that I know of with a "properly" mounted ELT antenna.

Cheers,
Rusty
 
Rusty,
Mine has been flying for 13 years with a perfectly legal and correct ELT antenna installation. There are many of them out there.
Mel...DAR
 
So don't keep us in suspense. Where would you put an ELT antenna on an RV-8 that would be legal and proper? Don't say the top of the fuselage, unless you mean those few inches between the front baggage compartment, and the windscreen :p

I've used the same type ELT in 3 previous planes, and never once has it been installed per the manufacturers recommendations, but I guess it was legal, since the DAR signed off on it.

Now that I think about it, I don't think you're required to have an ELT during the test period, so the DAR wouldn't necessarily have to see it at all.

Cheers,
Rusty
 
No one cares?

Rusty, Mel: Regarding ELT antennas:

IS an ELT required? Yes I think so, Part 91.

IS an ELT a TSO'ed item? Yes I think so.

IF you install a TSO'ed item you need to follow the TSO'ed / FAA approved instructions, right? (It is like a IFR GPS, it must be TSO'ed and installed per the TSO. The GPS and transponders are the only things for sure that need to be TSO'ed, Right?)


Just because we have gotten away with it does not mean it is right. Right?
-OR-
Right or wrong if we can get away with it than, Good Nuff. :rolleyes:


Back to antennas:

One constant is almost every ELT instructions recommend that it be externally, vertically mounted (within so many degrees) on top of the plane.

The only reason to not follow the instruction is aesthetics and may be 1/8th MPH worth of drag. Good reasons for me, just like any RV'er. I have my own approach (rationalization).

Bottom line I don't care what you guys do, I don't want to get into who is right, I don't care. Also it is moot if you can get it approved. That is all that counts. However if I am going to be required to put something in, like an ELT, I am going to try to make it useful and reliable as possible, but each to their own method.

The Horizontal ELT antenna in the Vert/Horz stab intersection fairing works and should be safe if the coax does not get cut. You may end up nose down post crash. The antenna would be vertical. You can't always control the final crash position of your plane. Who knows what attitude the plane will end up after a cash.

Realistically with the hidden antenna, its broadcast directions will always be blocked by structure in a few directions, regardless of the final aircraft resting attitude, but even an "approve" external, vertical, on-top antenna location may be less than effective if the plane flips. So there you go, it does not matter? :cool:

I suppose if you survive and can get out, access the ELT you can always connect the external antenna.

I am not criticizing, just opening it up for discussion. Legal or not it is not a totally unreasonable thing to do (horz tail fairing antenna mount).



Not even Wichita can get it right:

I talk to Artex about this. The Tech Rep said even the manufacture of certified planes don't install ELT's correctly many times. The FAA buys off on them.

A few truths?

Allegedly an ELT (and antenna as well) is most likely to survive if mounted further aft, at least according to the manual. The rationalization that I use is if the crash is so bad that the cabin structure and equipment does not survive, than I won't either. So forward mounting, say in cabin/baggage area is acceptable to me.

Artex (makes stuff for high end aircraft) does study how ELT's don't work in real crashes. The instructions are born from this experience. OF course they thumb downed on my aft cabin mounting. However in a small plane the differnce between aft and far aft is not that great.

Granted our experimental aircraft ELT reliability record is probably not very well populated with data. Has anyone NOT been found because of a fwd mounted ELT or buried / hidden antenna? Doubt it.

The other common caution of TSO manuals is the coax should not run over long lengths thru differnt sections of the plane. Now that makes the most sense.



What to do?

In my RV-4 the antenna is under the canopy along side the roll bar (approved). The RV-7, the antenna is located just as if it was a EBC unit (the all in one units), just inside the canopy. If EBC can approve a cabin ELT antenna I assume I can, right? The ELT is right below under a cover with a short Coax run. If the cabin survives so will the antenna and ELT. Also my CG requires equipment not to be mounted too far aft. That is my story and I am sticking to it.

I am not saying the tail fairing is a bad place for the antenna. For me I want to mount the ELT forward and did not want a LONG coax run, so the tail antenna is not for me. The RV-7 tends to be tail heavy and did not want the ELT back there. That's my objection. With my cabin antenna location it is "vertical" and it is on the top (side) of the aircraft. Like I said EBC can do it, why not (besides the manufactures instructions).

One side note, if your antenna is in the tail and the ELT is way forward, say in the baggage area, you have a long coax run which can be cut. Again it is not who is right, but a realistic discussion on a "system" installation, pros and cons. We are big boys (and some girls but you know who you are), we can figure out what we want to do.

The most important thing is precedence, which has been set. We know we can throw the ELT and ELT antenna in any old way and no one will care. Cool. My plan "A" is not to crash.


George


PS I have seen many external ELT's on RV's myself, but admit most new builds have buried ELT's.

PSS the new 406 ELT's may never be mandated? The Gov does not have the cojones. However the 243.0MHz is scheduled to go away? We will see, but right now 406 is not a done deal for the time being. If I was going to fly in Alaska, Mexico, South America or go around the world, I would get a Personal 406MHz unit with internal GPS postion. They cost less the $800. I may get one anyway. They are great for boating, hiking, skiing or even driving. People get stuck in their cars every year, especially in the winter. I flew a lot on the west cost. I would go almost direct Redding CA, to Phoenix AZ. That takes you over the Sierra Nevada mountains. Same with the Cascades in the NW. People go down and are never found. They just found a WWII pilot recently. Will a 406 ELT save your life or even a standard 243/121.5 do it? Well if I survive I sure want to be found. Even people who crash less than a mile or so from a major Freeway are not found for days sometimes, it the ELT does not activate.

There was one tragic case from my old flight school club where I was a CFI. (link below see page 3/4 - 1b/1c) The survival aspects and ELT section are interesting. The ELT was damaged and did not work. The pilot survived the accident but died in part due to hypothermia. The plane was not far from a major interstate freeway (1.5 sm). Sadly they where not found for a day and both pilot and passenger expired by than. If the ELT went off, the pilot may(?) have survived if found in time? Also a factor was the installed ELT. The crash was clearly violent and clearly the ELT was damaged (just aft of the C172 baggage compartment on the right side wall like we install them many times). What if it was in the tail? My installation is to have it in the baggage area near the pilot/pass.

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/GenPDF.asp?id=SEA94FA014&rpt=fa
 
Last edited:
gmcjetpilot said:
Rusty, Mel: Regarding ELT antennas:

IS an ELT required? Yes I think so, Part 91.

IS an ELT a TSO'ed item? Yes I think so.

IF you install a TSO'ed item you need to follow the TSO'ed / FAA approved instructions, right? (It is like a IFR GPS, it must be TSO'ed and installed per the TSO. The GPS and transponders are the only things for sure that need to be TSO'ed, Right?)

Is an ELT required? Part 91.207(f)(4) exempts aircraft while engaged in flight operations incident to design and testing. However if you don't have the ELT installed at the time of the airworthiness inspection, the inspector may issue a limited airworthiness certificate for phase I only. He may want to inspect the aircraft again after phase I and the installation of the ELT.

Is an ELT a TSO'ed item? Yes

If you install a TSO'ed item you need to follow the TSO/FAA approved instructions.......RIGHT!

As far as a good place to install the ELT antenna on an -8...good question. There just isn't an ideal location. My best solution would be in the cockpit/under the canopy. This location at least will allow vertical polarization and not COMPLETELY surrounded by metal.

Mel...DAR
 
Mel said:
gmcjetpilot said:
As far as a good place to install the ELT antenna on an -8...good question. There just isn't an ideal location. My best solution would be in the cockpit/under the canopy. This location at least will allow vertical polarization and not COMPLETELY surrounded by metal.

Mel...DAR

Thanks for the comments. I just went out to the garage with ELT antenna in hand, and took a look at some other options. Almost immediately, (what seems to be) a great in-cockpit option became obvious.

The rear seat of the -8 is angled much more than the bulkhead behind it. This allows floor space for the flap weldment behind the seat back. The armrests go all the way back to the bulkhead of course, so there's a few inches of armrest that's actually behind the front of the seat back, so you can't hit it with your elbow. On the left, the flap motor comes up through this area of the arm rest to bolt to the bulkhead, and this isn't in the way of anything.

It now appears that my 18" or so carbon fiber ELT antenna can go on the right side, in the rear of the arm rest. It will extend just a few inches above the turtle deck, but the whole antenna is open to the cockpit area. The cable will even be completely enclosed. What a deal :D

The ELT will be mounted under the baggage compartment "shelf", where the rear battery would go if you used one. I might make a doggy door go have easier access.

It's good to have all this decided. It seems like figuring out where to put stuff often takes longer than actually installing it.

Cheers,
Rusty
 
Tail mounted aerial WORKS INVERTED

I was always concerned that the "inside the tail" mounting would not work if the aircraft came to rest inverted. Imagine my surprise then, when someone pointed out the the RV-6 equiped with an "In Tail" mounted aerial which landed on the mud flats near Vancouver, B.C. flipped over after a forced landing. The ELT began broadcasting and continued to broadcast all night long after the tide came in and precluded de-activation. So, this is just to let you guys know that the horizontally mounted aerial buried in the tailcone worked as required, inverted.

Cheers, Pete