smokyray

smokyray

Well Known Member
Guys, I just bought a used Ellison TBI and am installing it on The Bandit for experimentation. (gotta like that big bold print on the aft canopy) Despite all the good and bad stories I have heard on the TBI, I really want to try it. I have read the manual and have a Vans FAB airbox for it and might bolt it on today.

Any words of wisdom on the Ellison TBI out there?

Rob Ray
1500+ Carb hours RV4
 
Rob,

Please keep us posted as you progress re data gph mp rpm operation etc.

I belive there was another recent thread here or on the matronics forum about the Ellison TBI.

I have just put an AFP TBI on an M14PF and for the most part it works great but I consistently suffer abrupt and significant power loss as I climb between 12,000 and 13,000 feet.

It feels, smells and sounds like carb(induction) ice but for the life of me I cannot think of a spot anywhere in the system where it could form and it resolves promptly as I drop a thousand feet.

Anyway be careful, collect data and post it.
 
Interested as well. I don't hear a lot of bad news about the Ellison products. But don't hear a lot of good either. I think it might offer some siginficant improvements for me and am considering buying one one of these days.
 
I put an Ellison on my 180hp One Design which I built several years ago. I also used a Van's airbox and it mounted ok with minor mods. The Ellison had gone back to the factory for overhaul/check.

I was never able to get it to run trouble free. I had to tune the mixture control a lot to run smoothly. Eventually, I got tired of the limited operations of the 1D (but loved the unbelieveable performence) and the Ellison and sold the plane. I think the TB installation is sensitive to air flow into the unit. I never really tried to fix it since it mean't cowling mods.

I wouldn't install one even if I got it a good price. If acro is important, use an Airflow FI or if no acro, use a good old carb...just one man's opinion, YMMV.

Deene Ogden
RV8QB
 
Ellison TB

:) Rob,
I Have the Ellison on my -4 with a 0-360 & higher compression. @ 1000 HRS I replaced it, due to the first owner not using any type of air filter. I installed an air filter when I got the A/C home with about 700TT on it. It was still operating fine, but would not shut off with the mixture. (Some fine scratches from dirt.) I also had one on an S1S Pitts (0-360). I never had my -4 over 16,000', but it was fine. Both A/C flew fine with it, but you need to pay attention to the mixture on throttle changes as the mixture won't change with throttle movements. I have never experienced carb ice either. Up here in Ohio we can see some. I sure like mine! Rob, thanks for taking care of Damon.
Gary
 
Ellison TBI

Hey Rob,
I think you are going to like the TBI. I have one on the -4 I bought a few years ago. Problems have been few and minor in my opinion. Mine needed readjustment of the mixture w/i 10 hrs after first flight but none since. And the trick at shutdown is to make sure you are at idle when you pull the mixture to shutdown; with elevated rpms I think there is enough vacuum through the throat to pull fuel from the metering tube if throttle not reduced to a slow idle. You can run much leaner than a carb, it is much lighter and simpler and less expensive and for aero it never misses a beat. Van's airbox fits and works well.
Good luck and blue skies,

Glenn Wilkinson
N654RV @ OKZ
 
Ellison Throttle Body

Rob,

I have a friend (tech counsler) here in Rockford that has a BD-4 that has been flying for at least 25 years with an Ellison. He is currently building a stretch Pacer (30 inches) with an 0-540. He plans an Ellison for it too. Can't be all bad.

Good luck,

Wally Hunt
Rockford, IL
RV-4 Finishing Kit
 
Ellison

Hi, I had one on my -4 for aero's for some time, but have removed it to use on a dedicated aerobatic aircraft. I put the Facet carb back on the -4, and could not believe the change. I couldn't lean near as far and the engine was rougher everywhere cf. the ETBI.

The ETBI took some setting up initially, but if you follow the steps on Ellsion website you'll be fine. If the idle mixture is set too rich you will have trouble shutting down with mixture alone, and may have to use the mag switches as well. I used Van's FAB airbox and added some straighteneing vanes - not sure if they were ever needed. Great for acro, and no hi pressure fuel pumps or fuel return lines to worry about. My EFS-5 is now on a -390 in a G-200 awaiting paperwork so I can go flying - yee hah!
 
Thank Ya, Uh, Thank Ya very much...

Thanks Guys, what a great site. Chuck Borne has emailed me a bunch of photos of his installation off line and from the sounds of Grants setup, The ETBI is all about following instructions and setting it up right. Even I can do that :)
My carb works fine and I do alot of positive G acro with it however comma, I have a mid-rpm range "surge" around 2400 below 5K that won't go away. Since I have ram-air It could be airflow turbulence as it runs great wide open at altitude. I am looking forward to testing the ETBI with the FAB...

BTW Grant, what type of vanes did you install?

I am off to the shop!
 
Ellison Inlet Guide Vanes

My vanes were similar to the old aluminium ice cube tray insert. Made out of 2024-T3, 0.032", slotted and araldited together! My installation had a bellmouth extension on the Ellison inlet to extend it down to the standard Van's FAB airbox position (as per carb). I glued the vanes into this bellmouth. I had some erratic running, this didn't change it. I sent the ETBI back for O/H and it was in a pretty bad way, slide worn and other things. Haven't tried it since in the new installation except for a short ground run.

cheers
 
TBI

Rob,
I also have a ram air valve on my -4 that will direct unfiltered air direct into my TB with no bends. I have no surge at any RPM or Alt. or attitude. I have inverted systems and it never missed a beat. I agree with Grant on the low RPM shut down as well as letting the engine cool off for a few seconds prior to shut down. Taxiing through grass won't count for cool down either.

BTW, Damon had great praise on the way you handled his RV-4 purchase in FL. It made all the difference with the experience for him. He was also impressed with the check out pilot you arranged as well. He is in love with the -4, but mumbles things about a Rocket he saw flying down there.
Gary
 
Going Back to Ohio...

Hi Gary,

Thanks for the TBI words, I am in the middle of the conversion and with a pre-fitted FAB from an RV4 that came with the TBI, it's hard to pass up. I have the Ram air setup on my carb so I can always adapt it to the ETBI if I need to.

I was glad to help Damon, I know he is an RV4 convert and was very suprised what a 160HP "stock" RV4 can do.

I am still amazed at what an RV4 does with an IO-540 out front...:)

RR
 
Halfway There...

Pete,
I have had alot of wonderful inputs on installing the ETBI. Most recent of which was Ken Krueger from Van's who ran one on an RV6 for a time. After all the inputs, the installation is straightforward. After a couple of phone calls and Ken's input I decided to mount the slide forward simply so I can use my original throttle cable. I will run the mixture control from the left side in front of the TBI. The Van's FAB airbox that came with it was well fitted for my cowl, basically a bolt-on.
My only engineering so far is the primer, still working on that one...Thanks for asking! I'll post pictures when I get it done and go fly!

RR
 
Thanks Rob

It will be fun to see how it works. I am having pretty good luck with my carb running lean with the use of carb heat, but the TBI is an interesting animal. Good luck on the install and I look forward to seeing the results.
 
Bigger Fish to fry...

Hi Dayton,

Sun N Fun took alot of wind out of my sails with 60 people at my house and 18 airplanes in and out of my yard over 5 days. One of my friends really wants my RV4 and I may reluctantly sell the Bandit to allow me to do some new and really cool stuff.
I fly the Rocket alot more now and can't justify both. The good news is my buddy likes the ETBI so I will install it once he gets checked out in it. I have everything fitted up including the FAB so it shouldn't be too hard.

When all that takes place I will take lots of pictures and post the results. See ya!

RR
 
Ellison TB

RR and VAF readers,
This is my first entry to the VAF, and I also plan to install an Ellison TB on my RV-4 in the next few months. Already have the flop tube and the Raven inverted oil. From the Ellison website, I notice that the throttle cable connection can be located on the right or left sides, but the recommended mounting is sideways? My carburater connection is on the right side (facing forward). Any help here? I didn't build the aircraft and my A&P is unfamiliar with the Ellison TB.
Thanks in advance,
N96JP (willyeyeball)
 
Pictures say a thousand words

Steve Sampson said:
I would take a look at Thomas's excellent web site.
http://www.rv-4.de/
Click to expand...

Thanks a million Steve,

My German is a little weak, but the pictures clarify it very well. Thanks, and when I get it installed in a couple of months, I'll write a short report too.

Bill (N96JP)
 
Willit Run?

Guys,
Just spent several hours this week looking over several ETBI installations. Two were in Long EZ's, one in a Pitts. All worked fine according to owners, the oldest had over 1000 hours. One common denominator was setup difficulties with too rich or lean followed by happiness. All three said they liked it better than a carb and got better mileage. All three also said a gascolator is not sufficient to filter fuel to the level required by the ETBI. All said to follow instructions and make sure the airflow in was uniform. (With a FAB it should be moot).
Overall it was refreshing and I plan to install it on the Bandit down the road for it's new owner. Yep, I agreed to sell it to a friend with the stipulation I get first dibs to buy it back if he sells. Guess I'll just have to fly my Rocket more...:)

Smokey
 
I was planning to use an Ellison TBI for my RV-4 when it is finished. However, I just read some of the info on their website and they clearly state that auto fuel shall NOT be used with the ETBI. Since I plan to fly some aerobatics and use auto fuel, I guess my only alternative is fuel injection :confused:
 
SvingenB said:
I was planning to use an Ellison TBI for my RV-4 when it is finished. However, I just read some of the info on their website and they clearly state that auto fuel shall NOT be used with the ETBI. Since I plan to fly some aerobatics and use auto fuel, I guess my only alternative is fuel injection :confused:
Click to expand...

I have an IO-320, and was wondering if auto fuel could be used. It is still in the overhaul phase, and I was thinking of going with the TBI (for acro and simplicity of installation). Also, I could use Van's FAB with the prettier, smaller induction scoop on the lower cowl.

So guys, which way should I go...Fuel Injection, or the Ellison TBI?
 
TBI or not TBI, that is the question...

Bryan,
I towed gliders with an IO-320 powered Citabria back in the late 70's running MoGas all day long. Vapor lock was easily remedied with judicious usage of the boost pump on the ground. However, the ETBI prohibits MoGas per their instructions. I believe it is the fear of the caustic additives eating up the rubber parts inside. For the same price you could buy a true fuel injection system.
In your case I would go with the silver hawk/bendix fuel injection or Airflow Performance. No issues, simple operations and lots of them out there. MoGas works fine in them. (some certfied applications are actually approved with the Petersen STC). The AP system works very well and I have flown one on a full inverted system 180HP RV4.
One more option is the Aerocarb from the Sonex folks. They make one for the 0-320 but is designed for gravity feed fuel systems. You would only need an in-line pressure relief valve from your local auto parts store to remedy that. The Aerocarb runs MoGas as well.
My Dos Centavos...

Rob Ray
 
Last edited:
Why

Why is the word that comes into my head. I mean, auto fuel flows through millions of carburettors and fuel injections every day in cars. There must exist tens of thousands of different rubber and plastic compounds that works flawlessly with auto fuel, that can be used on the ETBI. Why did Mr Ellison chose a rubber compound out of the few percentages that is not compatible with auto fuel?

Right now AVGAS is about twice the price of auto fuel, mostly due to low demand on AVGAS combined with tax refound on auto fuel used in aeroplanes (in Norway at least). With more certified planes being converted to diesel (jet fuel), and light planes using Rotax, it is only a matter of time before AVGAS will disapear alltogether. In the mean time the price difference will just continue to grow.
 
smokyray said:
Bryan,
I towed gliders with an IO-320 powered Citabria back in the late 70's running MoGas all day long. Vapor lock was easily remedied with judicious usage of the boost pump on the ground. However, the ETBI prohibits MoGas per their instructions. I believe it is the fear of the caustic additives eating up the rubber parts inside. For the same price you could buy a true fuel injection system.
In your case I would go with the silver hawk/bendix fuel injection or Airflow Performance. No issues, simple operations and lots of them out there. MoGas works fine in them. (some certfied applications are actually approved with the Petersen STC). The AP system works very well and I have flown one on a full inverted system 180HP RV4.
One more option is the Aerocarb from the Sonex folks. They make one for the 0-320 but is designed for gravity feed fuel systems. You would only need an in-line pressure relief valve from your local auto parts store to remedy that. The Aerocarb runs MoGas as well.
My Dos Centavos...

Rob Ray
Click to expand...

Smokey, I have the complete engine (out of a Citabria!), including the Bendix servo, flow divider, lines, and nozzles. Airflow Performance is going to do the overhaul. I didn't know there was an STC for MoGas for injected engines...that's good to hear.

I don't want to hijack your thread, but while my engine is apart, I was also thinking about converting it into a "stroked 340" using ECI's crank and rods. Do you or anybody else know of people going that route? ECI says I'll have the weight of a 320 with more power than a stock 360, and still be a 2000hr engine. Sounds good to me!
 
Prop on stroker

I think the Stroker is a great way to go. Is there a certified prop that you can use? If experimental, which one?
 
Brian, (spelled wrong way :p ) I'm sure a certified prop could be used, but I don't know if there would be restrictions. I plan on using a Performance Props 3-blade or Catto 2/3 blade, with inverted fuel/oil.

I was thinking of selling the fuel injection system and converting to the TBI because it is simple like a carb, yet has the acro advantage of injection.

Bryan (spelled right way :D )
 
One more Stroke...

Bryan, I spent several drool-filled moments looking at the IO-340X at Titan's booth at SNF. I like it! I say go for it on the stroker if the cost isn't too bad.
However comma, the RV4 with a 150HP running MoGas and a lightweight prop is still a formidable foe to unsuspecting Pitt's, Lancairs, Navy T-34C's, T-18's and many, many high Horsepower RV's dispatched rather easily by the mighty Bandito.
It's all about technique, not horsepower bro.

Smokey
 
O340 Stroker - thumbs down for me

Smokey,

I am already headed exactly in the direction you describe:

Very simple and light RV4 with: O320D1A, F/P prop, no interior, no steam guages (Enigma, now installing), manual everything, all electrical on the panel, Nuckolls fuse block, no sub-panels or banks of switches,etc., no cup holders!!!! We're talkin' stock and light weight!!!! Nobody will be acusing my bird of being Miss Piggy!!!! :D I am putting in an MP3 jack for my best friend's Ipod (wife).

Brian Vickers, RV4 finishing
 
agreed...

Brian Vickers said:
Smokey,

I am already headed exactly in the direction you describe:

Very simple and light RV4 with: O320D1A, F/P prop, no interior, no steam guages (Enigma, now installing), manual everything, all electrical on the panel, Nuckolls fuse block, no sub-panels or banks of switches,etc., no cup holders!!!! We're talkin' stock and light weight!!!! Nobody will be acusing my bird of being Miss Piggy!!!! :D I am putting in an MP3 jack for my best friend's Ipod (wife).

Brian Vickers, RV4 finishing
Click to expand...

I am going the same route you are, except......I'll have a little more power
:p . I'll admit, I not only want my cake, but all the ice cream, cookies, gumbo, hamburgers, etc. as well :D.
 
Hi Smoky, This is Paul Best. I have the red/white retractable RV-4 with the sliding canopy. I also have an Ellison TBI on my plane and I like it a lot. The only problem I have had in over 500 hours of flying is that the little ball on the slide begins to wear at around 400 to 500 hours of use. I took mine off the plane and took it to the factory in Renton, Washington and they overhauled it for me to brand new condition. I reinstalled it and it is reliable smooth, and, to me, seems as honest as the day is long. Also, I went to their web site and downloaded the Owner/Technical manual and had it bound at Kinkos. This makes for a handy reference manual without a lot of money involved. Regards, Paul Best
 
Ellison

Paul

You should probably mention that your Ellison is not mounted on the sump but on the plenum that they sell. This allows each cylinder to get the same air/fuel mixture. I never had to adjust anything on it when I had it.

Best
Bryan
 
Position A or B?

WillyEyeBall said:
Thanks a million Steve,

My German is a little weak, but the pictures clarify it very well. Thanks, and when I get it installed in a couple of months, I'll write a short report too.

Bill (N96JP)
Click to expand...

Well, I thought I understood the set up, but my mechanic is not sure which position or configuration to order (A or B?): From the installation section "may be configured with their throttle control arms and fuel fittings located on either side of the body" : http://www.ellison-tbi.com/manual/section2.htm#1 With my RV-4, E3D, which configuration would you recommend? My mechanic called Ellison, and couldn't get an answer.
Thanks in advance, and can't wait to stretch out the old backbone a bit without the engine quitting.
Bill McLean
N96JP
 
Can't use mogas in the 340 stroker

BryanArd said:
I don't want to hijack your thread, but while my engine is apart, I was also thinking about converting it into a "stroked 340" using ECI's crank and rods. Do you or anybody else know of people going that route? ECI says I'll have the weight of a 320 with more power than a stock 360, and still be a 2000hr engine. Sounds good to me!
Click to expand...

I spoke to the ECI folks at Arlington last year and they said that the 340 is not compatible with MoGas. I think is has to do with the high compression pistons. If your intent is to use mogas, check with ECI first.
 
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