[David Paule]

The new iPad with the GPS has a nice collection of Sectionals. I wonder, though, what to do if the iPad dies while I'm on a trip?

Serious question... assume daylight VFR. I'll probably have a course in mind and an idea how far I am to the refueling airport, but not the frequencies or other airport data. And that still leaves me hundreds of miles from my destination.

If electronic charts start eating into the market for paper maps, even fewer airports will stock them. They're scarce enough now.

 

[Lionclaw]

I'm planning on keeping a set of paper sectionals for backup, even if they're outdated. I'll probably always keep an AFD in the plane as well.

Is there a place to buy cheap 1 or 2 cycle old sectionals?

 

[JonJay]

For long trips, I use EAA's Trip Planner

It costs around $7 and whatever you factor your per page sheet costs for color printing. I print with a 50nm corridor. My 496 is my primary and I carry an older 296 just in case.
There are many sources of electronic charts but the printing can eat you alive cost wise if you try to print the whole sectional.

 

[flickroll]

The new iPad with the GPS has a nice collection of Sectionals. I wonder, though, what to do if the iPad dies while I'm on a trip?

I use electronic approach plates all of the time. But I always have a backup plan. In my case, my PRIMARY plates will be AFS's plates displayed on either my 3400 or 4500. I will have another set of plates as a SECONDARY source on my iPad. Prior to iPad, I used an Amazon Kindle for the secondary source, but did not like it much because it has a slow processor. Prior to the Kindle I would print out backup plates for my destination and alternate.

You do not legally need VFR charts for a flight, although I have always carried them. Going forward I intend however to use the iPad for VFR charts. If the iPad dies it's no big deal - the 696's moving map will be good enough for me. I am still undecided how I will handle IFR low altitude enroute charts. I need enroute charts and I need a backup if my primary is electronic.

 

[gbrasch]

You need paper charts

Check with the FAA, you need the appropriate charts and information for your flight in paper. I have gone around and around with this issue with them, we have stacks of them in our helicopter at work, and in my own plane. They will get you under Part 91.103 if your electronic device fails and you don't have a sectional/WAC and AFD on board and something happens. Let the flame wars begin! Me, I subscribe to the AFD and sectional service with the feds, cheap insurance. Hope this helps, Glenn

 

[hevansrv7a]

Technicality

Check with the FAA, you need the appropriate charts and information for your flight in paper. I have gone around and around with this issue with them, we have stacks of them in our helicopter at work, and in my own plane. They will get you under Part 91.103 if your electronic device fails and you don't have a sectional/WAC and AFD on board and something happens. Let the flame wars begin! Me, I subscribe to the AFD and sectional service with the feds, cheap insurance. Hope this helps, Glenn

You don't legally need the chart. You do legally need all the information that pertains to your flight. If you have a photographic memory, you may be legal. This applies to VFR as well as IFR. I use AirCharts for V and I and the bound approach plates. For facilities, I use the little brown book(s).

 

[N395V]

91.503..requires the pilot in command of large and turbine powered multiengine airplanes to have charts.? ?Other operating sections of the FAR such as Part 121 and Part 135 operations have similar requirements.?

This is the only mention of charts being required in flight in part 91.

So unless you put more than 1 turbine engine on your RV you are not required to carry any charts current or ancient.

For an FAA reference look here>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

http://naco.faa.gov/index.asp?xml=naco/faq#q2f

 

[N395V]

They will get you under Part 91.103 if your electronic device fails and you don't have a sectional/WAC and AFD on board and something happens.

If the something that happened was a direct result of not having needed information that could be found on a "current chart". Such as blowing into a controlled airport without a clearance because your Garmin 396 said there was no tower and you used CTAF when entering the pattern.

They could not violate you if your engine quit iover the top of class C and you made an emergency landing as a "current chart" would not have avoided the something that happened.

While on the subject exactly what is an FAA recognized current chart?

Is there anything in the FARs that designates what is an "official " chart?

 

[Jeff Vaughan]

FAA and Charts

This was lifted from my chapters news letter.
EAA 240:

What is the FAA policy for carrying
current charts?
Submitted by EAA240 Member Lucky Macy
The term "charts" is not found in the FAA's Part 91
regulations (other than for large and turbine-powered
multiengine airplanes in 91.503[a]). The specific FAA
regulation, FAR 91.103 "Preflight Actions," states that
each pilot in command shall, before beginning a flight,
become familiar with all available information
concerning that flight. What is not specifically
addressed in the regulation is a requirement for charts.
You should always carry a current chart for safety's
sake. An expired chart will not show new frequencies or
newly constructed obstructions, some of which could
be tall enough to be a hazard along your route of flight.
The only FAA/FAR requirements that pertain to
charts are:
? Title 14 CFR section 91.503[a] (Large and
Turbojet powered aircraft)
? Title 14 CFR section 135.83 (Air Carriers-Little
Airplane)
? Title 14 CFR section 121.549 (Air Carrier-Big
Airplanes)
The FAA has rendered interpretations that have
stated the foregoing. The subject of current charts was
thoroughly covered in an article in the FAA's July/
August 1997 issue of FAA Aviation News. That article
was cleared through the FAA's Chief Counsel's office. In
that article the FAA stated the following:
1. "You can carry old charts in your aircraft." "It is
not FAA policy to violate anyone for having outdated
charts in the aircraft."
2. "Not all pilots are required to carry a chart."
"91.503..requires the pilot in command of large and
multiengine airplanes to have charts." "Other operating
sections of the FAR such as Part 121 and Part 135
operations have similar requirements."
3...."since some pilots thought they could be
violated for having outdated or no charts on board
during a flight, we need to clarify an important issue. As
we have said, it is NOT FAA policy to initiate
enforcement action against a pilot for having an old
chart on board or no chart on board." That's because
there is no regulation on the issue.
4...."the issue of current chart data bases in
handheld GPS receivers is a non-issue because the
units are neither approved by the FAA or required for
flight, nor do panel-mounted VFR-only GPS receivers
have to have a current data base because, like
handheld GPS receivers, the pilot is responsible for
pilotage under VFR.
5. "If a pilot is involved in an enforcement
investigation and there is evidence that the use of an
out-of-date chart, no chart, or an out-of-date database
contributed to the condition that brought on the
enforcement investigation, then that information could
be used in any enforcement action that might be taken."
If you, as an FAA Safety Inspector, Designated
Pilot Examiner, Flight Instructor, or other aviation
professional are telling pilots something other than the
foregoing then you are incorrect.
What is the database currency requirement needed
for VFR or IFR flight?
AIM 1-1-19b3(b) Database Currency (1) In many
receivers, an up-datable database is used for navigation
fixes, airports and instrument procedures. These
databases must be maintained to the current update for
IFR operations, but no such requirement exists for VFR
use. (2) However,...
AIM 1-1-19g Equipment and Database
Requirements - For IFR Operations "All approach
procedures to be flown must be retrievable from the
current airborne navigation database..."
AC 90-100, U.S. TERMINAL AND EN ROUTE
AREA NAVIGATION (RNAV) OPERATIONS, paragraph
8a(3): The onboard navigation data must be current and
appropriate for the region of intended operation and
must include the navigation aids, waypoints, and
relevant coded terminal airspace procedures for the
departure, arrival, and alternate airfields.
NOTE: Navigation databases are expected to be
current for the duration of the flight. If the AIRAC cycle
will change during flight, operators and pilots should
establish procedures to ensure the accuracy of
navigation data, including suitability of navigation
facilities used to define the routes and procedures for
flight. Traditionally, this has been accomplished by
verifying electronic data against paper products. One
acceptable means is to compare aeronautical charts
(new and old) to verify navigation fixes prior to dispatch.
If an amended chart is published for the procedure, the
database must not be used to conduct the operation."
Published instrument procedures and routes are
incorporated by reference into 14 CFR Part 95 and 14
CFR Part 97, are "law." They are "effective" only during
the AIRAC cycle dates specified on the enroute chart/
TPP covers or on the side of the chart when printed
from the digital-TPP. If you are using a published
procedure before or after the dates specified on the
chart under IFR, you are technically in violation of the
law.
Lucky Macy, EAA240 Tech Counsellor

 

[flyeyes]

Check with the FAA, you need the appropriate charts and information for your flight in paper.

Hmmm, this may be a local FSDO thing where you are. I have checked with the FAA locally and they don't feel paper is required.

They are always quick to point out that you need "all the pertinent information" and a chart is an easy way to prove you have it.

An electronic chart is a chart. As long as your chart has all the relevant info, you should be good to go.

Most of my cross-country flying is behind an MFD which has a very good electronic chart and duplicates most of the AFD info. This is backed up by two panel-mount GPSs that are kept current. There are redundant power sources for these 3 charts. These are all backed up by a battery-powered garmin (which has most of the AFD as well as chart data) and as a last resort my iPhone which has cached charts, AFD data, and very limited gps capability.

I print NOTAMS, Wx, , AFD pagess, approach plates, etc from the internet (aeroplanner) for IFR trips, but papaer charts really aren't all that useful as long as you have enough sources of redundant electronic data.

 

[Snowflake]

I'd like to thank people who have posted in this thread, as it has cleared up a misconception that I have had for a long time, that when flying in the US you needed to have, on board, current charts and databases in your GPS. I know that in Canada you only need to know what the current information is relevant for your flight, but I always thought that the US was more strict and required that you have the actual physical proof.

I'm a lot less concerned about flying with an expired GPS database when I cross the border now.

 

[Sid Lambert]

I would suggest NOT carrying old charts. No charts would be better in the FFA's eyes. I know someone that was ramp checked and busted because they had a 10 year old sectional as a drape over the panel of a 152. When they flew they just tossed it in the back.

 

[Snowflake]

I know someone that was ramp checked and busted because they had a 10 year old sectional as a drape over the panel of a 152. When they flew they just tossed it in the back.

This would seem to contradict the wording of the FAR's, and the published interpretations as included above. Anyone here work for the FAA and care to comment?

 

[terrykohler]

Advisory Circulars Provide Some Guidance

Check out the following:
http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgAdvisoryCircular.nsf/0/eb15b0c685650a0486257321006b3b8c/$FILE/AC%2091_78.pdf
You should still consider a reliable backup. Common practice for some of the guys at KPTK is to carry paper charts (for backup) and also print out destination and alternate IAPs for IFR flying. These are also used for backup, as most of the guys are using geo referenced note books or ultra portables running Anywhere Map systems. Incidentally, ATC is also supposed to have available the IAPs for airports in their sector (that from a senior/retired TRACON controller). Just an FYI for added safety.
Terry, CFI
RV-9A N323TP

 

[David-aviator]

Seems like it would be prudent to have paper back up for electronic charts, but times change. When my company broke into this world with the 767, we were required to carry current charts and approach plates.

I some ways, it would seem we are setting ourselves up for a retreat to the stone age in one fowl swoop. If the enemy ever figures out a way to unplug our electric grid and/or GPS, our culture will be out of business as far as safe flight is concerned, and a lot of other things also.

Consider what happened yesterday in the market - a 900+ point drop in a matter of minutes- and no one knows what happened. This much is known, there was a huge sell order on one stock and the source of that order has not been revealed. The economy is a mess in part because of so many market trading games like derivatives, short sales, long sales, futures, hedges, all a product of and in control by electronic devices and a mystery to most people. None of it produces tangible material or is otherwise useful to society and is totally driven by the compulsion to coral as much money as possible as quickly as possible.

We have become so dependent on electronic gismos from cell phones to ipods to electronic charts to GPS to automatic everything, we are loosing control of our lives. If I leave the house on a trip in a car or the airplane and forget to carry the cell phone, I feel vulnerable. That's how far this has come.

Times have changed enormously in 100 years, especially the past 50 with the invention of computers. I like computers but it is a challenge to keep up with all the peripheral stuff that has come along with this giant leap forward. We definitely are hooked, like on electronic charts, and where it will end no one knows.

I do know there are people on this planet who hate us and it and they are determined to bring us down and force a retreat to the stone ages, so to speak. We are vulnerable, there's a lot more of them than us.