Tomas J

Tomas J

Active Member
Hi,
Are there anyone having an idea of how big particles that can come through an FACET SOLID STATE ELECTRIC FUEL PUMPS or anyone having a exploded picture of the pump. I would like to learn a bit more about the pump.
 
Hi Tomas,
They are a plunger type. A 8 pin IC is an oscillator (555 timer) this pulses a power transistor, that pulses a coil. The coil pulls a plunger up,and after the power is removed a spring pulls it back. These pumps will not handle any dirt. I took one apart and found the electronic part was fine. A small particle of dirt had wedged between the plunger and coil bore. The pump worked after I removed the dirt,but I had to unfold all the crimped metal. Once the plunger is stuck youre done. If you could filter the inlet without restricting the flow that would help. Best to carry a spare. A motor driven pump would handle a small amount of dirt better. Vans has used them for years as a back up to the engine driven pump,I know of one local plane that went down due to blockage in one,well over 900 hours at the time.My plan is to use a motor driven pump,I have high hopes Andair would come up with something.Andy sees Carbs as horse and buggy and has concentrated there efforts on the FI pump&controller,mabe we can push him to offer one.
RHill
 
Facet recommends a 74 micron filter on the pump inlet for a good reason. I have no idea why Van's did not specify one in the plans but they should have.
 
Thanks RHill,
Is there no filter of any kind in this pump, like it is in the GOLD-FLO INTERRUPTER pump. Do you know how that pump works, and would you say it's more safe? I feel I like to filter the fuel before the pump, and thinking of what is best... put a separate filter before the pump I have, or change to a GOLD-FLO pump.
Anyone else having ideas about this?
 
Tomas J said:
Thanks RHill,
Is there no filter of any kind in this pump, like it is in the GOLD-FLO INTERRUPTER pump. Do you know how that pump works, and would you say it's more safe? I feel I like to filter the fuel before the pump, and thinking of what is best... put a separate filter before the pump I have, or change to a GOLD-FLO pump.
Anyone else having ideas about this?
Click to expand...

Solenoid pumps are perhaps the most widely used "universal" type pumps and both the facet round pumps and the cube pumps are solenoid. They do not have centrifugal impellers or vanes. They are designed to fit lots of universal applications,I doubt experimental kit planes were what they had in mind.Rather than a motor, a solenoid pump uses a piston that is actuated by an electromagnetic coil. This is what's used to generate fuel pressure and flow. By utilizing short pulses of electricity the solenoid pump can be highly energy-efficient.Keep in mind what Walt has said they need filters,I've always installed them on the output side.As stated in the specs there is a screen filter on the Gold-Flo,I'm not sure of its placement.I defer to Walt on the best way to install and maintain the Fuel system on an RV. When it comes to RV maintenance, When Walt speaks,RV's listen!:)
RHill
 
Tomas J said:
Walt,
What filter will you recommend to use in front of the Facet pump?
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/eppages/facetpumps3.php?clickkey=4377
But that one don't seems to have the right fittings. What about this one...
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/eppages/univinlineff.php?clickkey=38120
Or would you say it's better to use GOLD-FLO pump with the internal filter?
Click to expand...

Both of those are junk IMO, I use a FlowEzy series 3000 or use something similar (AFP also sells a good one).
http://flowezyfilters.freestarter.com/
 
Walt said:
Both of those are junk IMO, I use a FlowEzy series 3000 or use something similar (AFP also sells a good one).
http://flowezyfilters.freestarter.com/
Click to expand...

Thank you Walt, Do you place this filter on the inlet side or output side? What fuel pump do you recommend for low pressure carb set ups? I know you have cautioned us all on checking our tubing flares for cracks with 10x magnification.Are there any other tips that you apply here?
RHill
 
The facet pumps are fine in my experience, put the filter upstream of the pump to protect it. I have my filter right after the fuel selector valve.

Paper filters are prohibited, use only stainless steel mesh filters, anything finer than 74 micron is not necessary (I believe the AFP is 100) and should be avoided.

No rubber hoses with hose clamps and ditch the gascolator.

Other than that follow the plans.

Just my 2c.
 
PCHunt,
Yes, If your engine needs more than 4 gallon per MINUTE it's really thirsty... ;)

Thanks Walt, for all the information!
 
Walt, have I understood correctly that you don't use a gascolator? Why? What else do you have to take care of water?
 
Fuel system

Tomas J said:
Walt, have I understood correctly that you don't use a gascolator? Why? What else do you have to take care of water?
Click to expand...
I'm no Walt,but here's is my take
The gascollator is seen as a heat sink at the bottom of the firewall as well as a source of vapor lock or suction leak. This is the straight forward simplest system all metal tube from the tank to the inside firewall fitting with a fire sleeve wrapped SS braided or Teflon hose from the engine side firewall fitting to the engine driven fuel pump.Water is removed from the tank sumps on preflight. Issues to look for.
Anti-rotation bracket and SB compliance at the tank pick up
Quality of the aluminum tubing used
Quality of the tubing flairs,Walt as written extensively on this,cracking on over driven flairs,recommended checking all tubing flairs with a 10x magnification
Quality all metal 74 micron SS screen filter up stream of the pump.
Stock Facet pump with 74 micron filter before the intake port (supplied by Vans and proven by thousands of hours of operation as adequate).
I have no doubt left something out,feel free to add.
RHill
 
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Facets on my -4

I run a Lyc O-320H2AD on my -4 with no mechanical fuel pump, so I have 2 Facet cubes in series, one in the tunnel as "boost" per VANS plans, and the other "always on"on the FWD side of the firewall on the outlet side of the standard gascolator. I run both on T/O/Landing, and use the boost for pressurizing the primer system when I need it. Either pump will run the plane, and the firewall mounted components (gascolator and pump) are both on the lower center area of the firewall, between a 4 pipe Vetterman exhaust. If I fly on a 100 degree day, land and jump out, reach up in the cowling and touch either..they are stone cold. There is no special insulation, heat shields or anything. Realize, in flight, air is going down and out, and after shut down, all heat rises. Never had any vapor lock, ect.
 
Tomas J said:
Walt, have I understood correctly that you don't use a gascolator? Why? What else do you have to take care of water?
Click to expand...

I built the plane per the plans with the gascolator, after flying for a number of years I realized that the gascolator was serving no purpose and was not in the low point of the system anyway (the tank sumps are the low point). In addition it added more complexity to the system and acted as a heat sink for the fuel, which especially here in TX is not desirable thing. When I switched to fuel injection I tossed the gascolator and never looked back.
 
Walt said:
I built the plane per the plans with the gascolator, after flying for a number of years I realized that the gascolator was serving no purpose and was not in the low point of the system anyway (the tank sumps are the low point). In addition it added more complexity to the system and acted as a heat sink for the fuel, which especially here in TX is not desirable thing. When I switched to fuel injection I tossed the gascolator and never looked back.
Click to expand...

I have been looking at water bubbles in fuel and they may behave quite strange. You can't be sure they always are at the tank sumps and you get them drain out. And if water gets into the fuel line, the only thing that can take care of it is the cascolator. That is the great benefit of the gascolator and it don't have to be at the lowest point of the system to do that job.
 
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fixnflyguy said:
I run a Lyc O-320H2AD on my -4 with no mechanical fuel pump, so I have 2 Facet cubes in series, one in the tunnel as "boost" per VANS plans, and the other "always on"on the FWD side of the firewall on the outlet side of the standard gascolator. I run both on T/O/Landing, and use the boost for pressurizing the primer system when I need it. Either pump will run the plane, and the firewall mounted components (gascolator and pump) are both on the lower center area of the firewall, between a 4 pipe Vetterman exhaust. If I fly on a 100 degree day, land and jump out, reach up in the cowling and touch either..they are stone cold. There is no special insulation, heat shields or anything. Realize, in flight, air is going down and out, and after shut down, all heat rises. Never had any vapor lock, ect.
Click to expand...

What if you lose electricity...?
 
2 batteries for dual electric pumps.

For my 2 electric pump system, I have a standby battery wired to be completely seperate of the main system. Its enough to run the pump,flaps and GPS if needed in emergency,with primary completely shut off. I will eventually install the small B&C alternator on the vacuum pad, but for now I just keep it charged with my battery tender.
 
Talking about water, went to a WINGS safty class up in Tahoe last year, an older gentleman recomended shaking the wings before pre flight,( to get the water droplets off the tops of the tanks to travel to the sumps) he explaned folks would come up to Tahoe, spend the day, while the tanks cooled off, moist air would enter the tanks as the temp droped, water would condense on the upper surface of the tanks. If you sump your tanks before you do the shake procedure, you could have water traveling to your engine on take off! documented crash because of this. Leaving Tahoe has no margin for a stumbling engine on take off!
 
fixnflyguy said:
For my 2 electric pump system, I have a standby battery wired to be completely seperate of the main system. Its enough to run the pump,flaps and GPS if needed in emergency,with primary completely shut off. I will eventually install the small B&C alternator on the vacuum pad, but for now I just keep it charged with my battery tender.
Click to expand...

Okay Bill, If you have a system completely separated from the ordinary to drive one of the pumps, I'll be glad to fly with you ? specially as it's a 4 you are running ;)
 
bret said:
Talking about water, went to a WINGS safty class up in Tahoe last year, an older gentleman recomended shaking the wings before pre flight,( to get the water droplets off the tops of the tanks to travel to the sumps) he explaned folks would come up to Tahoe, spend the day, while the tanks cooled off, moist air would enter the tanks as the temp droped, water would condense on the upper surface of the tanks. If you sump your tanks before you do the shake procedure, you could have water traveling to your engine on take off! documented crash because of this. Leaving Tahoe has no margin for a stumbling engine on take off!
Click to expand...

People who see this video usually ask me if I'm afraid that the wings will come off, as I'm shaking them on preflight. But the reason is just what you mention. To get the water to travel to the lowest point of the tanks, to get it drain out. But be never to sure, after drain the tanks, that you got all the water out. That's why I use a gascolator.
Hope you all excuse I show a Cub on this forum ;) I do the same on my 4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GRVJPUtrQIk
 
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