Ironflight

VAF Moderator / Line Boy
Mentor
I have written in the past about the requirements process when developing a plan for equipping a new airplane. Basically, you start by figuring out what you want the airplane to do, then figure out functions you need to carry out that mission, then figure out what types of equipment you need to carry out those functions – and only after doing those steps do you open up catalogs, magazines, and web sites to look at specific products that will give you those functions. It’s a simple, logical process that takes a lot of the emotional consumerism out of the mix. Not that there’s anything wrong with getting emotional about an airplane, but that should come AFTER you know the cold hard facts.

While this all sounds simple, and pleases the engineer’s sense of esthetics, I will be the first to admit that putting the process in to practice in reality takes a little more effort. The devil is always in the details, as they say, and in this case, you’ll find him when you start evaluating some design “intangibles” that come with avionics selection. It is very easy to identify a GPS as being IFR approved for instance. It is simple to determine the number of isolated power feeds there are on a specific EFIS. And it is not hard to figure out if an autopilot can function on its own, without reference to an EFIS. But how do you quantify “reliability”? How do you determine if software is “robust”? Frankly, how do you figure out if you can “trust” a specific system to keep on doing what it is designed to do?

[Before all of the quality engineers out there raise their objections…yes, there are many different ways to determine these things in traditional commercial, military, or government projects. Unfortunately, they all require extensive, time-consuming, and high-sample testing, little of which can be counted on with the latest homebuilt avionics. Even with the best of intentions (and my experience has been that all of the popular suppliers truly have the best intentions), it is hard to say that a particular system has gone through the kind of testing it takes to achieve certificating – because if it did, well, it would be certified – and cost six times as much! So here in the niche experimental market, we have to create a little microcosm of what the high-dollar aerospace market does…]

For me, the answer comes down to a few things.

1) Pedigree of the designers - do the designers have a verifiable background in the avionics world? There are a lot of code-slingers out there without a lot of background in the avionics or aerospace world. It is easy to find an OEM display/computer, write some pretty code and rent a booth in one of the big buildings at Oshkosh to show off your new system. But I like to know that the people behind a product to which I am going to trust my butt have been ingrained in the aerospace world for awhile. I want them to have a fist-hand understanding of what it is like to have their own little pink body in a machine hurtling through the air. And I like them to have been involved in big-time, real-world development of systems where reliability was king. Look into the background of the people behind a product, and see if it includes a decade or two with one of the “big boys” – the quality of the product is going to reflect their background.

2) Testing – how long has it been “in the field” with beta testers, and how many bugs have they found? Despite a reputation as an “early Adopter” in some areas, I am actually quite cautions about what I fly IFR with. As long as hardware or software is in Beta test, I won’t depend on it to function – I always keep an older, stable version of the software in another box, as well as a previous version on a thumb drive in the airplane. I will upgrade part of my system at a time, and keep a reliable backup on board. And I still use backup instruments in case the physical laws governing the movements of electrons decide to take a hike. I like to see software flown by a large group of active beta testers before it is released for general use – even though our market is small enough that it is hard to get a “large group” doing anything at the same time. In addition to knowing that software and hardware has been tested, I like to know that bugs have been found, for there are ALWAYS bugs, and if the testing hasn’t found them, then they are still lurking….

3) In-service time – how long has it been out there being flown by customers? Like Beta testing, I like to know that a system has seen some real-world service in day-to-day operations. It is neat to have a very low serial number of a new system, but I wouldn’t depend want to have to depend on it working. When companies announce new products and people rush to praise it before the first units have been delivered, I usually hang back for a year to see how it does. (Sometimes, it takes that long for systems to show up anyway…). Ask yourself if you have seen actual, installed systems, or heard people talk about them, or seen folks write about them on the ‘net. Until that happens, you have to wonder where the units are in the development cycle!

4) Company Longevity – how long have they been around? Everyone has to start somewhere, but the newer the company, the less experienced they are likely to be in the simple area of survival. Several of the companies building EFIS’s today started out many years earlier building something else for the aircraft industry – if they are still producing that “something else”, that’s a good clue that they might continue to stay around. I am nervous about start-ups when I have to design an airplane’s systems around a product like an EFIS – there is too much to re-do if you have to change horses later on.

There are other ways to deal with the “intangibles” – these are just a few of the things I look for when trying to decide what to put in my airplane. Whether it is avionics, an engine, or the kit itself, I want to know that what I choose has a track record of success behind it.
 
1) Pedigree of the designers - do the designers have a verifiable background in the avionics world?

I don't think this is required to the degree that you state. Yes, it would be of great advantage if the designer indeed flies his own creations but I would not place a lot of value of the designer having been a cog in some big avionics company. In fact, I would be weary of him owing to some experience in this regard. Too many ingrained "bad habits" are sometimes collected there...
I'd much prefer a "fresh" guy that loves aviation and preferably flies himself and is able to "think outside the box".

2) Testing ? how long has it been ?in the field? with beta testers, and how many bugs have they found? I like to know that bugs have been found, for there are ALWAYS bugs, and if the testing hasn?t found them, then they are still lurking?.

Not stricktly true but a popular way of looking at things. It depends heavily on the complexity of the product. There are EFIS systems that are very basic and simple while others are hugely complex systems. It does not do to judge them the same.
Yes, complex systems are likely to have bugs. But what exactly is a bug ? Something that stops a system from working is obviously a bad thing. Something that results in incorrect information displayed to the pilot (but doesn not bring the system down) can even be worse - depending on the situation. Then there are "niggly" issues, non-critical stuff sometimes refered to jokingly as "non-documented features". Basically these are issues that are non-critical.
Here you have only one way of judging: Does the manufacturer of the product list version history stating bug fixes, or does this remain something that is swept under the carpet of secrecy ?

3) In-service time ? how long has it been out there being flown by customers? Like Beta testing, I like to know that a system has seen some real-world service in day-to-day operations.

Yes, this is a confidence booster. But it also may be not "the real thing". Is the system design static (i.e. finished, only minor releases expected) or is it dynamic and ongoing ?
You will find non-certified panels generaly in the "dynamic" category. This means they can change radically from the software point of view over the years. Sometimes a new feature that gets added may break something else in the system and go completely unnoticed for some time (software "does that").
So, in some way, as you upgrade your system with a new release, you may be compromising something that may even just affect your particular installation (this obviously is the case with "flexible", user configuration panels like ours and less so with "fixed" systems).

4) Company Longevity ? how long have they been around?

Yes and no.
One of the oldest EFIS companies has just recently decided to go fishing.
So, if you would have based your decision on that, you would have been wrong even though you would have been right - make sense ?
Never underestimate a startup - if you do (as a company like us in particular) you will be dead before you know it.
A startup has a huge advantage over an established company:
a) Completely fresh start, no baggage, no legacy.
b) Very low operating costs, small payroll (even zero sometimes).

Given the above, all it takes is a good mind, some business sense, a good idea and the will to take it through. If it turns out that price is also good - how can it go wrong ?
Yes - a small company like that can close at a moments notice for a host of reasons leaving customers in the lurch. But at the same time it may not and establish itself securely. Such a company often will be taken over as the original owner "cashes in" - sometimes that takeover proves fatal for the company (and this may be intended) or other times the takeover results in the exact opposite and the company grows rapidly to its full potential.

All current non-certified EFIS companies are young. We started MGL in 2001 (with first instruments in the aviation world designed and produced back in 1998) which now makes us just about one of the oldest around.

What did we do before ? Before it was just me, working for other companies.
Well, the eariest aviation "contact" was in 1981 (but I'm not allowed to talk about it). The earliest I can was in 1983 - a Dornier 228 called "Polar 2". I was involved designing a mono-pulse, low frequency radar system that was used to measure the thickness of the ice in Antartica. Even went there to fly the grids (but did not get far since we crashed the plane in Antartica all too soon).
The next involved the design of a major air traffic control system for use at international airports (OK, non of that was airborne, but still...).
The next was when I bought my own plane and I did not like instruments...

So, what was the most valuable experience related to what I do now (design anything to do with electroncis in aircraft - not just EFIS systems) ?

The answer is "non of the above".

The most valuable experience came from designing sophisticated electronic ticketing machines for rural African busses (wireless smart cards, mag cards, the works...). Absolutely nothing can prepare you for that task. DO-160 means nothing here. This is simply as rough as it gets.
No aircraft I have ever come across is even remotely an environment as hostile to electronics as this. This tought me a few things.

So why am I telling this here ?

To illustrate one thing:
Nothing can be taken at face value - life is not that simple.

All of the people that design non-certified systems for aircraft are special (I am including all the other companies). They have to be or otherwise they would be working for one of the big ones or flipping hamburgers.
You don't just decide one day "hey, let me make an EFIS, sounds like fun" without a pretty good background and a definite goal.

In my mind, this makes any of the current companies a good bet. I think they fullfill all of your requirements.
So: choose what you like best and what fits your mission. You can't really make a bad choice currently.

Rainier

This is written with my MGL hat OFF.
 
So: choose what you like best and what fits your mission. You can't really make a bad choice currently.

Couldnt agree more with this. Its a very tough decision between the GRT, AFS, Dynon and MGL EFIS units. And while I dont think there are that many TruTrak EFIS units out there, their excellent autopilots and customer support would lead me to guess that their EFIS is likely to be excellent as well.

We are lucky to be enjoying these fine companies and benefiting from their competition

erich
 
Rainer,

I am very happy that you chimed in here with your expertise - as we both point out, it can be a very difficult choice when getting down to the "intangibles, which is what prompted this musing. You are one of the voices that I really like to hear because you are very open about all that you do, and how you think about the industry and the products available, and your participation here is invaluable.

As you can see from my post, I am not really making any specific recommendations - as usual, what i am presenting is a set of questions that people might use to help themselves make decisions and discriminate between the choices,. To say that there is no difference between any of the available options and that any one will work as well as any other is to oversimplify to the point of saying that you might as well buy on price alone.

As you yourself point out, one of the previously big names dropped out within the past year - if we'd looked at the available systems and companies before that time and said that all the choices were good, there would be a lot of disappointed customers out there (as there actually are). Yes, the industry is young, but it is worthwhile (I believe) to look in to company history to make decisions on potential longevity.Which does not mean that start-ups won't last, but history shows that in general, it's good to have some sort of track record.

It all comes down to the questions - I am all about questions - and the answers that each individual comes away with as being relevant to them. I don't presume to have the answers - but I try to be broad-minded when it comes to questions!

Paul
 
Paul,

I whole heartedly agree with your analysis of the situation. It is very difficult to judge how good one EFIS is against another. The factors you have identified are exactly the ones that should be taken into account when making the decision as to where to spend your $$$. Thank you for yet another excellent post.

Pete
 
Hmmm?

Methinks Paul and Louise have been discussing what instruments will go in the RV-3 panel. Nothing like planning ahead. Oh yes, Paul does a lot of that at his day job (night job this week).

Thanks for another excellent thread, Paul. And also thanks to Rainier for presenting valuable insights from the supplier side.
 
Exactly.

... and that's why I bought Dynon.

And before that irritates the sensibilities of those who have chosen and enjoy some other brand, please let me explain.

As I planned my panel many years ago, it consisted of a six-pack, a VM-1000 engine analyzer and a Navaid A/P. The only question was whether to invest in an electric AI and DG instead of vacuum instruments.

By the time I got to actually buying stuff for the panel, my how things had changed! I marveled at the Dynon units on display at Oshkosh and hoped that the technology would really prove to be reliable and affordable.

However, over the intervening years, many other manufacturers had come and gone, as Paul said. Dynon was still there, and RVs were starting to show up on the flight line with their products in the panels.

I remember a HUD unit at Oshkosh that was pretty darned cool. It wasn't there the next year. Engine analyzers that outshone the venerable VM-1000 with more bells-n-whistles for less money sprang up ... and disappeared. But Dynon was still there.

However, Paul left out one very important parameter when considering the design and inhabitants of an RV panel:

SEX APPEAL. :D

Seriously, I've seen some very well-equipped panels that seemingly have no flow or intelligent design in their layout. And others are pure sex. I, for one, would rather have a bunch of instruments that don't work BUT LOOK COOL than a panel packed with more information than my brain can process. <jk>

I just happen to have both. ;)

My Dynon EFIS and EMS present all the information I could possibly want in a logical, manageable format. They weigh less and cost less than the same info in steam gauges. And they look pretty cool, too.
panel.jpg


Not sure if this is a worthy contribution to your thread on EFISes, Paul, but it's a confirmation that the points you outline are not only important but attainable, IMO. For me, the attainment was with Dynon. Good products, good people, good company.
 
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Nice looking panel Smoky - I see that you followed Danny's advice about "symmetry" - that does make things more appealing, in a subconscious sort of way.

i really was trying to keep brand names out of this particular thread, as we have a ton of posting in other threads that begin "well, I chose Brand ZZZ becasue...". I am more interested n helping folks make their own choices on what is right for them than pushing anything in particular....

...but you throw a thread out there, and it takes on a life of it's own.

Paul
 
i really was trying to keep brand names out of this particular thread, as we have a ton of posting in other threads that begin "well, I chose Brand ZZZ becasue...". I am more interested n helping folks make their own choices on what is right for them than pushing anything in particular....Paul

Sorry, Paul. I'm not the smartest cleco in the box, you know ... or something like that ...:D
 
Great topic. Paul and Rainier both make good points. I don't have much to ad to the conversation right now, but I think all of us that have shopped for glass panels have asked ourselves these questions.

This is one reason I'm a fan of a open source efis unit. I'm making some slow progress on one. You may see a post from me in a couple months with a update on this. Got alot of the hardware talking to each other already. Kinda hard to work on a project like this when it's just me and I already have 10 other projects to work on. One of which is getting my RV built and flying. :) That is more my priority now.
 
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What did we do before ? Before it was just me, working for other companies.
Well, the eariest aviation "contact" was in 1981 (but I'm not allowed to talk about it). The earliest I can was in 1983 - a Dornier 228 called "Polar 2". I was involved designing a mono-pulse, low frequency radar system that was used to measure the thickness of the ice in Antartica. Even went there to fly the grids (but did not get far since we crashed the plane in Antartica all too soon).
The next involved the design of a major air traffic control system for use at international airports (OK, non of that was airborne, but still...).
The next was when I bought my own plane and I did not like instruments...


I don't know if you have other posts on some of your stories, but i think it would be great Rainier if you shared with us some of your experience that is unique. I mean, there can't be that many people that have crashed planes in antartica posting on VAF now, right?

back to the efis, sorry about the jump paul. Just couldn't resist a request when i saw that little teaser.
 
I don't know if you have other posts on some of your stories, but i think it would be great Rainier if you shared with us some of your experience that is unique. I mean, there can't be that many people that have crashed planes in antartica posting on VAF now, right?

back to the efis, sorry about the jump paul. Just couldn't resist a request when i saw that little teaser.

No, I have never posted any of this (on any list). I posted it here since I wanted to make a point - i.e. you need to really know the background of a company in its many facets to be able to judge - and this information is not generally available of course so fair judgement is almost impossible.

Antartica is a long story (as they all are) and completely off topic. I'll make it short:

This happened in 1984/1985 as part of a German Antarctic expedition with assistance from the U.S. via their base at Mc Murdo Sound. We had two aircraft - both Dornier 228 called Polar 2 and Polar 3 (Polar 1 was a Dornier 128 but was not at that expedition). Polar 2 was fitted with the mono-pulse radar and a magnetometer while Polar 3 only had a magnetometer. Both aircraft would fly the same official mission but Polar 3 would peel off and head for the coast to fish for oil (which was highly "unofficial"). Anyway, that was long time ago.
We crashed Polar 2 while attempting to supply a field camp on landing - a sastrugi (solid wave-like formation of ice, all but invisible since everything is white) ripped out the nose gear and since we where still going at a bit of a speed caused quite a bit of damage.
The Dornier factory in Germany organised a massive repair job under near impossible conditions at a cost that exceeded the value of the aircraft to get it back out and they managed. Unfortunately, one year later, the same aircraft was back in Antarctica and this time we did a better job and wrote the plane off for good.
As an asside, on the first expedition, Polar 3 was shot down on the way back from Antarctica to Germany over west Africa by a shoulder launched missile killing everybody on board.

Rainier
 
Really neat story...

...that makes me think that Doug should start a new thread entitled "Unique stories from RV builders/owners."

The best,