dnimigon

dnimigon

Active Member
Just getting back to my build again after a long break. Amazing how work interferes with fun time. Anyway going to thinking seriously about the panel end of things. I know there is a lot of info out there on the new glass panels with all the fancy gadgets but I'm just looking for some simple easy to maintain VFR panel. Would like to go glass and am on limited budget. Is there a write up someplace for a guy to get his feet wet and understand what is really needed and where to start
 
I think the answer is that there are no easy answers; if there were, there wouldn't be so many choices. If your mission is strictly day vfr, there are NO requirements. Take a look at the GRT "mini" series, or the Dynon D-6 or -10; are they adequate for your mission? You need to ask yourself things like, do you want an autopilot? Do you want a CDI for nav use? etc.
 
Well, the EFIS systems are on about their third generation since I started studying them, so it's a work in process. I had a good education from an Aerotronics sales rep when I asked the newbie question "What's the best EFIS system". The answer was "Best for what?" He gave me a 3 hour demo and education for which I'm very grateful. Since then, one minor player has exited the business, another two have merged, and a big one has entered the experimental market.
I would suggest reading all of Stein Bruch's articles in back issues of Kitplanes to get a good grounding on the features and issues. Some of these are few years old now, hopefully Stein will produce some updated ones for future issues.
 
You're not asking an easy question! It's a little like primer or not....

I'm a GRT guy so my opinion is slanted to what I know about GRTs. I don't know much about the rest because I don't have time to keep up. So, If it were me, I would start with the different manufacturers web pages, then go ask others who have the stuff, then ask the experts like Stein, then go to the regs and see what i really need for my mission, then start all over to refresh your knowledge.

Do you make it upgradable without throwing what you have away? Here is just a sample: If you start with the GRT EIS and a Mini, would could upgrade later to a sport or Hx and use the existing as backup. See what I mean? not easy.

Good luck.
 
Like PaulK says - tough question, but . . . there is help. I studied and read for a long long time. I might suggest you write down what you want the panel to do, then consider reliability, support, and the point in its life cycle.

You don't need the definitive answers, but knowing the category of questions, and qualitative "wants" would be a good start to have a discussion with SteinAir or Aerotronics (or others I don't know about). They would be very happy to get your call whether you just buy the components or a full panel.

The professional panel builders/dealers know all you need to know, and with your general expectations, can propose a panel system for you. I did this to take advantage of their experience and knowledge. I went with SteinAir and remain very happy with the choice.
 
If you have time to wait until SnF 2016, go and get hands on the different units. If you need to move faster, find a way to get hands on. There is a lot of personal preference in the selection along with understanding what capabilities you want/need, including AP and the rest of your radio requirements. And of course your wallet size.

I developed a list of must haves and nice to haves, got a budget plan then went shopping. In the end, the displayology (how data is laid out on the display) and sunlight readability played a role in my selection.

Have fun.
 
You can check out MGL products by downloading the simulators. Works just like the actual EFIS. Free.
 
Identify your mission, then your requirements

RVDan said:
I developed a list of must haves and nice to haves, got a budget plan then went shopping. In the end, the displayology (how data is laid out on the display) and sunlight readability played a role in my selection.

Have fun.
Click to expand...

Concur w/ Dan: start with your mission! Define your requirements, including cost, before you start shopping; even day VFR has required instruments.

My approach:
I started with my mission (get IFR training/cert, fly IFR, get flight reviews in the aircraft);
then identified requirements drawn from the IFR PTS, CFR 91.205, and CFR 61.57 to develop a list of functional capabilities required of avionics for my mission, i.e. how to "Aviate, Navigate, Communicate."
This serves multiple purposes:

1. identifies all the required capabilities
2. confirms every capability has functions assigned ("Aviate" requires display of airspeed, attitude, vertical speed...)
3. identifies inputs for every function (controls, devices, data)
4. identifies inputs that require physical and logical interfaces, i.e. what information (location, attitude, distance, time...) is necessary display airspeed?
5. identifies what equipment (radio, gps, cables, hubs, ADAHRS, controllers...) creates, calculates, or carries the information?
6. identifies the equipment to be obtained, and installed on the aircraft!

If you're interested, PM me with an email address, and I'll send the document along.
 
As others have said, this is a tough question.

There are basically 5 options out there for experimental EFIS's. Here they are in alphabetic order:
  1. Advanced Flight Systems (AFS, part of Dynon now)
  2. Dynon
  3. Garmin
  4. Grand Rapids Technology (GRT)
  5. MGL Avionics

I'm going with Garmin since their Experimental division is extremely responsive to tech questions, much of their certified technology migrates to their experimental products and I really like the high resolution (lots of detail) of their G3X Touch system displays.
 
A lot of good info already. If you want a fairly unbiased opinion from someone who has installed, flown and worked on all 5, feel free to give me a call and pick my brain sometime during the week.
 
Jesse said:
A lot of good info already. If you want a fairly unbiased opinion from someone who has installed, flown and worked on all 5, feel free to give me a call and pick my brain sometime during the week.
Click to expand...

Jesse, I'm real interested. Want to make my 8 IFR capable. Seems like any GPS that is IFR legal is really expensive ( Like a G 430) (Already have a Dynon 180 and don't necessarily need an EFIS display) Does the Arinc 429 fill the bill to do IFR legal navigation---say paired up with my D 180 or a GRT sport EFIS? Will call you during week.
 
Last edited:
donaziza said:
Jesse, I'm real interested. Want to make my 8 IFR capable. Seems like any GPS that is IFR legal is really expensive ( Like a G 430) (Already have a Dynon 180 and don't necessarily need an EFIS display) Does the Arinc 429 fill the bill to do IFR legal navigation---say paired up with my D 180 or a GRT sport EFIS? Will call you during week.
Click to expand...

The D180 or the GRT will help you keep the blue side up and correct altitude. For Arinc you will need a G430 or equivalent. You need some legal navigation source, so even a Nav radio would work, which doesn't require arinc. You will need a NAV display (needles), which us where arinc comes in for the IFR gps boxes. I wouldn't fly IFR without a certified navigator. I have flown a lot of IFR behind a D180.
 
Make a list of what you want in your panel in Excel and then start checking the EFIS options and traditional steam gauges. Include the price of each option in your matrix.

Remember that some of the EFIS's out there include all the engine gages, transponders, radio, intercom, etc. When you figure in those costs, it might be cheaper to buy an integrated system vs. piecing one together.

As mentioned above, A D180 connected to a handheld GPS is a great day/night VFR setup but you will still need a radio, transponder, ADSB(?), and intercom.

I would avoid steam gages at this point because they will destroy your resale value, weigh more, and are more complex to install than an EFIS.

Good luck with your build!
 
Bill, The advantage of having steam gauges for a backup is they typically leave you stranded. I have glass with steam backup for this reason. About a week ago someone on the forum was stranded away from home cause their AHRS had died. I have had to send my Dynon display back for repairs and I was not grounded during this timeframe.

I do agree it is a personal preference for either setup. As far as for the resale value, most panel designs are beautiful in the owners eyes, but not everyone else has the same love for the setup.
 
curtis said:
Bill, The advantage of having steam gauges for a backup is they typically leave you stranded. I have glass with steam backup for this reason. About a week ago someone on the forum was stranded away from home cause their AHRS had died. I have had to send my Dynon display back for repairs and I was not grounded during this timeframe.

I do agree it is a personal preference for either setup. As far as for the resale value, most panel designs are beautiful in the owners eyes, but not everyone else has the same love for the setup.
Click to expand...

I have a 2 screen G3X with dual AHRS's and a totally stand alone/dissimilar Dynon D6 for my backup that has its own battery that will run well over an hour. I have no idea what the statistical odds are of my system leaving me stranded but I bet they are pretty darn high.
 
Just finisihing my panel

First I looked at my wallet and thought.... cant afford glass.

Then the years rolled by and who can you sell a steam gauge plane to? Someone who wants it cheap so they will install the glass panel.

For me following my night rating I have installed a seperate Airspeed, turn and bank coordinator with slip ball, Ammeter, oil pressure , oil temp steam. My Dynon 10 inch Skyview will arrive because i have followed them from inception and i wanted the inexpensive Auto pilot so i have two servos in the wings.

EFIS is great but just like everything in flying i think one has to look at possible electric failure and or breakdowns requiring long repair to outside facilities. The way my panel is I will still fly while i await its return.

Oh I also am installing an AirGizmo to receive my AV8OR handheld GPS navigator.

Good luck on your deliberations.
 
dave4754 said:
Oh I also am installing an AirGizmo to receive my AV8OR handheld GPS navigator.
Click to expand...

Is the AV8OR going to be supported long enough to make it worth cutting a hole in your panel and buying a $100+ airgizmo to mount it?

I remember when Lowrance dropped its handheld line. Great products, but those of us who owned them got left high and dry from a database update standpoint very quickly.
 
dave4754 said:
First I looked at my wallet and thought.... cant afford glass.

Then the years rolled by and who can you sell a steam gauge plane to? Someone who wants it cheap so they will install the glass panel.

For me following my night rating I have installed a seperate Airspeed, turn and bank coordinator with slip ball, Ammeter, oil pressure , oil temp steam. My Dynon 10 inch Skyview will arrive because i have followed them from inception and i wanted the inexpensive Auto pilot so i have two servos in the wings.

EFIS is great but just like everything in flying i think one has to look at possible electric failure and or breakdowns requiring long repair to outside facilities. The way my panel is I will still fly while i await its return.

Oh I also am installing an AirGizmo to receive my AV8OR handheld GPS navigator.

Good luck on your deliberations.
Click to expand...

We are talking about a VFR Airplane. A competent pilot should be able to get home if everything went dark.

When I redid my panel after 300 +/- hours, replacing a D100 with a SkView, I elected to remove my steam airspeed indicator and altimeter. However, I did keep my Airgizmo/496.

Failures of these electronics do happen but are not common. As for engine instruments, if the thing up front keeps making noise after the EMS part of the SkyView goes dark, I can get home.
 
Last edited:
N941WR said:
We are talking about a VFR Airplane. A competent pilot should be able to get home if everything went dark.

When I redid my panel after 300 +/- hours, replacing a D100 with a SkView, I elected to remove my steam airspeed indicator and altimeter. However, I did keep my Airgizmo/496.

Failures off hese electronics do happen but are not common. As for engine instruments, if the thing up front keeps making noise after the EMS part of the SkyView goes dark, I can get home.
Click to expand...

I 100% agree that we should be able to get the plane home if the system fails while in flight. The issue would be if it failed before takeoff which would be a grounding issue, VFR or not.
 
Sam Buchanan said:
Why would that be the case for day VFR?
Click to expand...

For day VFR there are minimum instruments required for flight. If all you have is a glass panel w/o backup analog or other instruments you do not meet the regs.

With the high amount of safety promoted within this forum, I would hope no one would takeoff without the minimum required equipment!
 
Last edited:
The current crop of EFIS have a very good reliability record. There are a few anecdotal reports of early failures during Phase 1, in general vendors stand behind their products and fix or replace. For a day VFR only aircraft I'm not sure back-ups are needed.

As others have said, define what you will do with the airplane first and equip to suit.
Aerobatics? Prominent g meter required, with fixed pitch prop prominent tacho required.
Night? Some kind of attitude instrument is required.
IFR/IMC? Whole different discussion...

Whatever flying you plan a fully functional engine monitor (in an EFIS or separate) is really worthwhile and will soon pay for itself. If you use a GRT Mini, get an Mini-X with a remote magnetometer. Dynon usually offer good value options for VFR only fits.

Pete
 
curtis said:
For day VFR there are minimum instruments required for flight. If all you have is a glass panel w/o backup analog or other instruments you do not meet the regs.

With the high amount of safety promoted within this forum, I would hope no one would takeoff without the minimum required equipment!
Click to expand...

Aircraft with an experimental airworthiness certificate are not required to have any instrumentation for day VFR unless the Operating Limitations state otherwise. My Op Lims refer to FAR 91.205 but only applies that reg for night VFR and IFR operations.

That is the legal side of the issue. Prudence may indeed dictate some degree of instrumentation, but that is up to the pilot to decide, not the FARs.
 
curtis said:
For day VFR there are minimum instruments required for flight. If all you have is a glass panel w/o backup analog or other instruments you do not meet the regs.
Click to expand...

How so? There's nothing in the regs that says you can't go all-glass, and there's definitely nothing requiring any instruments to be analog/mechanical.
 
rmartingt said:
How so? There's nothing in the regs that says you can't go all-glass, and there's definitely nothing requiring any instruments to be analog/mechanical.
Click to expand...
I left out my intent of the statement which is if the glass fails and you didn't have any backup analog instruments. Never fails that whenever I hurry mistakes will be made.
 
Last edited:
Sam Buchanan said:
Aircraft with an experimental airworthiness certificate are not required to have any instrumentation for day VFR unless the Operating Limitations state otherwise. My Op Lims refer to FAR 91.205 but only applies that reg for night VFR and IFR operations.

That is the legal side of the issue. Prudence may indeed dictate some degree of instrumentation, but that is up to the pilot to decide, not the FARs.
Click to expand...

Sam,
These are what are in my Operating Limitations;

Note #8 "After completion of phase I flight testing, unless appropriately equipped for night and/or instrument flight in accordance with ? 91.205, this aircraft is to be operated under VFR, day only."

Note #9 "Aircraft instruments and equipment installed and used under ? 91.205 must be inspected and maintained in accordance with the requirements of part 91. Any maintenance or inspection of this equipment must be recorded in the aircraft maintenance records."

The statement made in Note #9 doesn't make any differentiation between VFR or IFR and I don't see any reference to "if installed".

I think we need a DAR to weigh in on whether or not they would provide an airworthiness certificate on a Day VFR aircraft with NO flight instruments.
 
curtis said:
Sam,
These are what are in my Operating Limitations;

Note #8 "After completion of phase I flight testing, unless appropriately equipped for night and/or instrument flight in accordance with § 91.205, this aircraft is to be operated under VFR, day only."

Note #9 "Aircraft instruments and equipment installed and used under § 91.205 must be inspected and maintained in accordance with the requirements of part 91. Any maintenance or inspection of this equipment must be recorded in the aircraft maintenance records."

The statement made in Note #9 doesn't make any differentiation between VFR or IFR and I don't see any reference to "if installed".

I think we need a DAR to weigh in on whether or not they would provide an airworthiness certificate on a Day VFR aircraft with NO flight instruments.
Click to expand...

Your op lims support the position I stated:

1) No instruments required unless night VFR or IFR.

2) IF instruments are installed they must be maintained per........

Back to your original post where you stated instruments were a go-no go. A failed instrument (EFIS) could be placarded as inop and the plane flown day VFR because no instruments are required.

DARs have weighed in on this matter (but this isn't up to the discretion of the DAR....but they might have some questions for an RV-X builder with no instruments!) and day VFR with experimental airworthiness certificate does not require any instruments per the op lims.

There are a lot of experimentals out there that aren't RVs. :) I'm building one right now (replica of 1918 Fokker D.VII) that won't have several of the instruments listed in 91.205. I don't anticipate any difficulty receiving an airworthiness certificate. My plane will be restricted to day VFR.
 
Last edited:
curtis said:
Sam, I don't see the word "If" in the Note #9.
Click to expand...

Note #9 does not say instruments MUST be installed. The note references 91.205 but 91.205 only comes into play for night VFR and IFR per note #8:

"unless appropriately equipped for night and/or instrument flight in accordance with § 91.205"

I'm not proposing a position that hasn't been hashed out many times in the past. This really is old news. :)
 
Last edited:
Sam Buchanan said:
Note #9 does not say instruments MUST be installed. The note references 91.205 but 91.205 only comes into play for night VFR and IFR per note #8:

"unless appropriately equipped for night and/or instrument flight in accordance with ? 91.205"

I'm not proposing a position that hasn't been hashed out many times in the past. This really is old news. :)
Click to expand...

Read carefully. Sam is correct on this and it has been covered in this forum multiple times.
 
I truly believe is a never ending tread.

Discussions within the forums really don't amount to much other than opinions. I know that I was getting ready to certify another AB aircraft this would be discussed with the FAA or DAR vs a thread in an intranet forum. Yeah I know this goes against the belief that everything you read on the internet is true.

I find it hard to believe, if not impossible, that any FAA Inspector or DAR would issue an AB Airworthiness Certificate with NO instruments in the panel (even if it is a day VFR only aircraft), since 91.205 is the reg that specifies all of the flight and engine instruments. I'm not sure if you could satisfy all of the flight testing and final sign off 91.319 which is in your operating limitations, without any flight instruments. What needs to be kept in mind is that the FAA Regulations, Orders, and other guidance material can never be interpreted by only reading one paragraph. :confused:
 
curtis said:
I truly believe is a never ending tread.


I find it hard to believe, if not impossible, that any FAA Inspector or DAR would issue an AB Airworthiness Certificate with NO instruments in the panel (even if it is a day VFR only aircraft), since 91.205 is the reg that specifies all of the flight and engine instruments. I'm not sure if you could satisfy all of the flight testing and final sign off 91.319 which is in your operating limitations, without any flight instruments. What needs to be kept in mind is that the FAA Regulations, Orders, and other guidance material can never be interpreted by only reading one paragraph. :confused:
Click to expand...

It's never ending only because you won't let it go.
Read the first part of FAR 91.205 again, carefully. It does NOT apply to EAB aircraft! (unless op limits say otherwise, and, for most airplanes, they do not say otherwise for day-vfr). I agree, flight testing would prove a challenge without certain instruments. But certainly not all of the 91.205 instruments would be needed.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.