K

Kato's 8

Well Known Member
Afternoon everyone!
Can you all tell me more about tech councilors. I often read quotes like,"had a tech counci inspect before I closed up the skin", or" got 2 thumbs up from local tech coun. and cleared to build on" etc... I guess my question is, do most of you 1st time builders get inspections periodicaly through your build? Do some states require it? Do some of you just build w/o any input or inspection? I'm building mine in Pittsburg,KS (KPTS) and wonder if I should be more serious of finding a tech councilor that I could pay to come inspect. Just not sure how to go about it or when a good time to get inspected would be. I'm confident in my build thus far but I could be overlooking things I guess. I also worry some that I'll finish and then be asked by the FAA folks about inspections during the build. Though I take tons of pictures and documment what I do, I still have that nagging question. Your input will be appreciated, Thanks!
 
Tech.

In the old days, (22Years ago ) when we were building our -3 you had to take your parts to an A.I. prior to closing, I.E. Rudder, elevator, etc. so he could inspect them and sign them off, for a cost of course.:eek: The problem was, that alot of these guys were not familier with experimental aircraft, or didn't care. So the powers that be, decided that the best people to inspect and advise builders on construction was someone who has experience, and has built in the past. I have several people that I am inspecting or advising their build, not helping, if I help I am considered a co-builder.

A couple of benefits are, a second set of eyes on progress, advice from someone who has been there, and done it, and the Insurance co. looks alittle more favorably in insuring your project. I am sure that the D.A.R. will probably look at your project alittle differently knowing that you had a tec. visit on a regular basis.

I don't charge for what I do, There were people who helped us out, and now it is my turn to help others, and besides, you get to meet new people and make new friends. My advise would be to seek out a tec. and get them involved at an early stage, it can and will save you time and $$$$.

Just my input the way I see it.:D
 
Tech Counselors are part of the EAA chapters. There is no requirement by anyone for tech couselor visits but in my opinion they are an excellent resourse, especially if you are building in isolation. In the past, you could only get flight insurance for your first flight if you participated in both the EAA tech conselor program and flight advisor program. I think the insurance market has changed since then, but ask your insurer.

Find your closest EAA chapter and ask for a tech counselor visit. You can also find them through the EAA website I think. Some "specialize" in construction types such as glass, metal or fabric, so let them know what you're building. You don't pay anything and they have no authority to "approve" or "disapprove" anything, but they are usually experienced builders, frequently A&P mechanics, sometimes IA's. As I understand it and based on the visits I had, their job is to take a look at what you're doing and make observations, comments and suggestions. Much of what they do is to give people a reality check as to whether their standards of construction technique are up to AC43.13 but they are great resources to talk through different approaches to solving any given problem. They can also show tricks and techniques for doing the various things you need to do to finish a particular task. We have many tech counselors on this forum so please chime in and give more detail.

I have heard from various tech conselors that they really wish some folks had contacted them sooner, as what they saw on their first visit prompted them recommending redoing huge amounts of work. One said that a builder who was confident he was doing things right had to redo enormous amounts of riveting due to faulty technique and low standards. This seems to be a problem with people who work in isolation without visits from either other builders, A&P's or tech conselors.

I'm a firm believer in getting as many eyes on the project as possible. In my case I had tech counselor visits, MANY other builders around seemingly every day, several curious/helpful A&P IA's some who were also builders, and lots of other folks. I had lots of "adult supervision" and never ceased to be amazed at the various things that were pointed out and talked through, even when there were no changes needed. Everyone sees something new.

Jeremy Constant
RV7A 110hrs.
 
Since when does one require proper spelling of a title before calling them gbrasch?? Wink Wink of course!

Thanks to you other folks for the helpful guidance. I appreciate it.
 
Just pulling your chain a little pal, good luck (PS- I can't live without a spell check program myself!)
 
You ask some interesting questions. I would like to know how many DO have TC visits as part of their build. Maybe an idea for a poll...

As everyone has said, it isn't mandatory, doesn't cost, and no one can make you change anything, but it is a good idea. I can't think of a project I have checked where I didn't find something worth talking about, and that is the important thing--learning to build a better plane. Have I found bad stuff? Very little, but yes, in one case something that could have caused big problems. Finding those things makes it worthwhile for all of us.

Bob
 
Bob's experience is very much like my own - I rarely find something horrible as a TC, but we usually find some interesting things to talk about, and these lead to coaching discussions that help the builder, and expose me to knew ideas as well. I have always said that in any field, you learn as much by teaching as you can by being a student, and this is no different.

Yes, I have found one or two things that would have been disastrous - but since we caught them early, they were no big deal.

Paul
 
As a TC, the problems you guys found in builds deemed serious, what phase of the build do they trend toward? Riviting, electrical, design alteration....
How are the QB kits looking when you inspect? Just curious,thanks!
 
Kato's 8 said:
As a TC, the problems you guys found in builds deemed serious, what phase of the build do they trend toward? Riveting, electrical, design alteration....
How are the QB kits looking when you inspect? Just curious,thanks!
Click to expand...

I usually see problems with basic riveting, drilling, etc. on (as you would expect) tail components. That's where builders learn the techniques, and it is not a bad idea to get a TC visit just before you finish up the empennage. If you're making mistakes, those are are easy to rebuild - far better then learning that you don't know how to rivet when you are almost finished with the airframe.

The really spooky things I see are usually related to FWF - fuel lines and things like that. At least that's my experience.

Paul
 
When you cant find a TC

Bill,
The EAA chapter where I am has several TC's. Some are not familiar with metal, some are not actively counciling anymore and one didn't respond to an email. I have had a dickens of a time getting my chapter involved. I'm a "newcomer" and dont really know anyone there. I have been lucky enough to make contact with a TC, but he is not affiliated with my chapter (he's also a AP/AI/DAR/DER). He and I went over my VS and everything checked out. I wouldn't have found him unless I asked around. My chapter president was kind enough to give me his name. Even if you dont seem to have anyone handy, ask around the field. Even if they aren't a TC if they have built before it might be worth someone taking a peek.
 
Bring it here

If in doubt bring it here Bill. Take some pictures, include drawings and ask for opinion. The pool of knowledge on VAF is deep you may get answers not from one counselor but from several. Factory people are scanning the resource as well. Anything considered wrong or dangerous will be noticed for sure. Raise your thread next day and again if not answered. Tear that search window till it blinks :) That's what VAF is for. Good luck with your build.
 
Tech Counselor

I've also gone on a few "ride alongs" with our TC as he looked at other RV projects. He always asked the builder if they would like another RV builder to be there (so far no one has said no...). The builders and the TC have appreciated my RV-specific experience and I always learn a lot by listening to their dialogue.

Mike
 
Tech Counselors are volunteer. No charge. The offer of a little gas money is often appreciated if they have to travel any distance.
The unofficial minimum number of TC visits is 3. I prefer to do 5 or more during a complete build.
 
Most of the issues I've found were related to FWF.
One time, I found the wires were tied down with velcro cloth type tie wraps. :eek:
 
I have to agree..

...With Doug and Dan. FWF fuel and oil line routing/security is essential, as we've just read about the unfortunate -10.

I did, however, see an F-1 project that every control surface was warped seriously! None of the rivets on the fuselage were evenly spaced, nor in a straight line .....edge distance violated many times...the absolute worst case of construction that we'd (Me and an A@P/IA RV builder) ever seen! Total junk and money wasted.

Yes, it's out there.
 
pierre smith said:
...With Doug and Dan. FWF fuel and oil line routing/security is essential, as we've just read about the unfortunate -10.

I did, however, see an F-1 project that every control surface was warped seriously! None of the rivets on the fuselage were evenly spaced, nor in a straight line .....edge distance violated many times...the absolute worst case of construction that we'd (Me and an A@P/IA RV builder) ever seen! Total junk and money wasted.

Yes, it's out there.
Click to expand...

This is amazing to me. You would think anyone with common sense would have noticed things like that and then ask for help. I tend to believe that those who fret over their work and ask questions would more than likely have only minor issues due to their attention to detail. OTOH, if you don't know you have done something wrong because it looks ok , well then...
 
Lemmingman said:
Bill,
The EAA chapter where I am has several TC's. Some are not familiar with metal, some are not actively counciling anymore and one didn't respond to an email. I have had a dickens of a time getting my chapter involved. I'm a "newcomer" and dont really know anyone there. I have been lucky enough to make contact with a TC, but he is not affiliated with my chapter (he's also a AP/AI/DAR/DER). He and I went over my VS and everything checked out. I wouldn't have found him unless I asked around. My chapter president was kind enough to give me his name. Even if you dont seem to have anyone handy, ask around the field. Even if they aren't a TC if they have built before it might be worth someone taking a peek.
Click to expand...

Gil, this is what I should do. My airport may be quiet except for the occasional crop duster refueling, but I have noticed that word of the build spreads and then people start showing up for a looksie. I have only had about 3 people show up and none of them had any experience that I could benefit from but if I start asking around I might find some hidden experience. I could also try and get out more! I have closed myself up in the hangar to build other than the occasional flight around the patch in the Citabria just to prove I havent forgotten how. I have been consumed by this build and I have only just begun!
 
jjglennon said:
Mel,
At what stages of completion would you prefer to see a project?
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Even though as stated before, most problems are found FWF, I think the most important inspection is very early in the build. That was if you are starting down the wrong road, it can be found and corrected before much is done.
Typically after that it's more or less up to the builder. After that first visit, he/she will be able to recognize when they need another set of eyes.
 
I hadn't thought too much about it until this thread, my EAA chapter has two Tech Counselors and I was a bit disappointed they had not dropped by earlier, but maybe they were waiting for a formal invitation. We meet Sunday, I will make a personal invite to each of them. They are old timers like me, they may want me to un skin the 12 and cover it with fabric!:mad:
 
As a TC, I am not going to stop by unless asked. I may drop hints, but I believe the motivation should come from the builder. As to when is the right time to ask, I believe early in the build. Unlike some of the others, I haven't found too many things bad FWF, only minor stuff. I will note the one critical thing I found: One guy called me in and I found amazing craftsmanship. Beautiful rivets, almost no dings, clean workspace, everything really near-perfect. Then I looked at some of the #3 bolts and asked to see the torque wrench. "Ah, well, I don't have one. But everything is plenty tight." I removed one and checked it and it was stretched about .015"! Now I consider that critical. Why some hadn't already broken I don't know. Damage isn't always obvious, even to a TC. I almost missed that one, but I check every time now.

Bob
 
I make it a point to tell everyone that walks into my hangar that if they see something I want them to tell me or ask me about it or bring it to my attention. There are lots of "quiet types" with boatloads of knowledge. Some of them may have had bad reactions from other people when they pointed something out, so they may be cautious about raising issues.

Jeremy
 
Mel said:
Even though as stated before, most problems are found FWF, I think the most important inspection is very early in the build. That was if you are starting down the wrong road, it can be found and corrected before much is done.
Typically after that it's more or less up to the builder. After that first visit, he/she will be able to recognize when they need another set of eyes.
Click to expand...

Mel, good point. Thanks!
 
DonFromTX said:
I hadn't thought too much about it until this thread, my EAA chapter has two Tech Counselors and I was a bit disappointed they had not dropped by earlier, but maybe they were waiting for a formal invitation. We meet Sunday, I will make a personal invite to each of them. They are old timers like me, they may want me to un skin the 12 and cover it with fabric!:mad:
Click to expand...

A Fabric covered RV. Now that would save some weight!:)
 
jjconstant said:
I make it a point to tell everyone that walks into my hangar that if they see something I want them to tell me or ask me about it or bring it to my attention. There are lots of "quiet types" with boatloads of knowledge. Some of them may have had bad reactions from other people when they pointed something out, so they may be cautious about raising issues.

Jeremy
Click to expand...

I believe I will do the same from now on.
 
videobobk said:
As a TC, I am not going to stop by unless asked. I may drop hints, but I believe the motivation should come from the builder. As to when is the right time to ask, I believe early in the build. Unlike some of the others, I haven't found too many things bad FWF, only minor stuff. I will note the one critical thing I found: One guy called me in and I found amazing craftsmanship. Beautiful rivets, almost no dings, clean workspace, everything really near-perfect. Then I looked at some of the #3 bolts and asked to see the torque wrench. "Ah, well, I don't have one. But everything is plenty tight." I removed one and checked it and it was stretched about .015"! Now I consider that critical. Why some hadn't already broken I don't know. Damage isn't always obvious, even to a TC. I almost missed that one, but I check every time now.

Bob
Click to expand...

Bob says exactly what I was meaning, sometimes you dont know you made an error. I always tighten bolts tight w/o a torque wrench ( non airplane stuff like bicycles, car, etc) and have never had problems. Sometimes that wheel is hard to get off for a tire change but usualy because the J A at the auto center had his impact wrench set to hulk power! So, I was very tempted to just tighten the bolt nuts on the HS center hinge to what "felt" tight to me. I broke down and bought the torque wrench that measures down to 20 inch pounds and went with that. Now let me tell you, 20 "lbs does not feel very tight to me and I have been temped to put another couple turns on it. Instead I put some torque seal on the bolt and will watch even though I still feel like it is way to loose. I have to trust those who know and not always follow what I just feel or assume.
 
Maybe it was a pride thing, since A&P's know everything (if you don't believe me, just ask one) maybe I thought I could not take the critical remarks. :rolleyes:
 
I have an A&P and worked as one for many years. But I still had a couple of TC's come by (Jeff P and Glen B.) and take a look. Especially at the FWF stuff. And lo an behold, they found several items that needed correcting. It's funny how you can stare at something for so long an no longer see it.
 
Every once in a while, I sit back and make believe I am an inspector looking at it for the first time. I am amazed at how many mistakes I can make AND CATCH, mostly thru acts of omission.
 
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