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Charles in SC

Well Known Member
Is there any follow up paper work given to me or anyone else after an EAA tech inspection? I had our EAA tech guy out to look at my project in may 2013 but have not heard anything from it. I asked at the time and thought he said he would send some paper work somewhere, I do not remember if he said he would send to me, EAA or who. He gave my work glowing reviews, signed my build log and I took his picture there with the plane. Is there anything else I should do?
Thanks in advance!
 
Charles in SC said:
Is there any follow up paper work given to me or anyone else after an EAA tech inspection? I had our EAA tech guy out to look at my project in may 2013 but have not heard anything from it. I asked at the time and thought he said he would send some paper work somewhere, I do not remember if he said he would send to me, EAA or who. He gave my work glowing reviews, signed my build log and I took his picture there with the plane. Is there anything else I should do?
Thanks in advance!
Click to expand...

EAA has asked Tech Counselors NOT to sign log books for at least the past 18-years.

There is a 3-page "EAA Technical Counselor Visit Report" that should have been filled out, the builder signed, and the builder given the 2nd sheet (Yellow copy) of the form during the TC Visit. The TC would keep the 3rd page (Pink) and send the 1st page (White) to EAA in a Postage Paid Envelope that EAA provides. (Size, color, and page number has changed over the years but what I list is the latest.)

I have been EAA TC 3816 since at 1996.
 
Before they left, each of the three tech counselors who inspected my project gave me the yellow copy of the EAA form they completed. No one(DAR, FSDO, insurance, etc.) has ever asked to see them.

Jim Berry
RV-10
 
I copied this from an older EAA guide to Tech Counselors.

Part of a letter I hand out. I think it is still in compliance with the EAA procedures...

The FAA recommends that all builders use experienced builders/A&Ps and/or EAA Technical Counselors for in-process inspections of you homebuilts. Details can be found in Section 8 of the Advisory Circular AC 20-27E ?Certification and Operation of Amateur-Built Aircraft?.
These visits are to be reported both in the aircraft logbook and on the Visit Report Form, which is completed by the Technical Counselor, signed by the builder, and sent to the EAA by the Technical Counselor.

You, the builder, should make an entry in your aircraft log book similar to the following:

?I, Joe E. Builder, had EAA Technical Counselor #xxx, John Q. Smith, visit my project on <date> and found it airworthy, signed Joe E. Builder.?

Visits are recommended prior to closing up major structures, and prior to covering any structure. For composite aircraft, visits are recommended when the aircraft structure is finished, but before any filling or painting is done. Each fabric covered structures should be inspected before covering.

For you RV builders, most areas are still inspectable after skinning but before adding fiberglass tips, etc., so several visits can be combined into one.
 
Minor "picky" point.

az_gila said:
You, the builder, should make an entry in your aircraft log book similar to the following:
?I, Joe E. Builder, had EAA Technical Counselor #xxx, John Q. Smith, visit my project on <date> and found it airworthy, signed Joe E. Builder.?
[/I]
Click to expand...

The word "airworthy" should never be used in reference to experimental amateur-built aircraft. Airworthy means that the aircraft meets it's "type design". An amateur-built aircraft does not have a type design, therefore it can never technically be airworthy.
It should be found "in a condition for safe operation".
 
Airworthiness

From the FAA website:
N----XX
Airworthiness
Class:Experimental
Category:Amateur Built
Airworthiness date: --/--/----

Experimental Amateur Built Aircraft are issued Airworthiness Certificates as Experimental Aircraft.
 
I had a very difficult time having the EAA tech counselor I initially spoke with and, I thought, who agreed to stop by periodically and be a knowledge resource to actually show up. As I recall, over the period of a multi-year build, he did one time.

When I was nearing the point of closing the wings and fuse, I asked a friend who was an IA to come over and look at the project - I felt okay about it but you don't know what you don't know. He came up with a short, and easy, list of things to check. I kept that.

Then, with a couple of weeks to go, I asked him to look it over again. He charged me for about an hour of labor and did a nice inspection. Again, a short easy list that I kept, along with his invoice that made no inference of an inspection, but did indicate the N number and his involvement.

The DAR did a careful and lengthy inspection, but while he didn't seem to care that there were no regular technical counselor visits, the involvement of the IA, I think, clearly helped.

YMMV - I would do it again the same way.

Dan
 
Mel said:
The word "airworthy" should never be used in reference to experimental amateur-built aircraft. Airworthy means that the aircraft meets it's "type design". An amateur-built aircraft does not have a type design, therefore it can never technically be airworthy.
It should be found "in a condition for safe operation".
Click to expand...

Mel, I believe the words came from the EAA web site, not me...:)
 
Regardless of the source, the statement is wrong.

An EAA Technical Counselor is NOT authorized to find any aircraft "airworthy".
 
Thanks, is there a way I can check at EAA to see if he ever sent in the paper to them? As I read the replies here it made me remember signing that three part form but I did not get a copy.
 
Mel said:
Regardless of the source, the statement is wrong.

An EAA Technical Counselor is NOT authorized to find any aircraft "airworthy".
Click to expand...

Any suggestions for the words the builder should put in his log book?

I'll certainly change my letter...
 
In the past I have used statements like "workmanship was found to meet or exceed standard aircraft practices".

My experience aligns with Mel's statement.
People in the FAA that know their stuff, will not tolerate any logbook entry or other official statement that associates airworthy with any aircraft that has an experimental airworthiness certificate. That is why the E-AB operating limitations specifically spell out that the log entry wording be "in a condition for safe operation."
 
rvbuilder2002 said:
In the past I have used statements like "workmanship was found to meet or exceed standard aircraft practices".

My experience aligns with Mel's statement.
People in the FAA that know their stuff, will not tolerate any logbook entry or other official statement that associates airworthy with any aircraft that has an experimental airworthiness certificate. That is why the E-AB operating limitations specifically spell out that the log entry wording be "in a condition for safe operation."
Click to expand...

Thanks - this can be a possible letter for other TCs to leave behind on their first visit to a project -

------------------------------------

Technical Counselor Visit


The FAA recommends that all builders use experienced builders/A&Ps and/or EAA Technical Counselors for in-process inspections of you homebuilts. Details can be found in Section 8 of the Advisory Circular AC 20-27E ?Certification and Operation of Amateur-Built Aircraft?.

These visits are to be reported both in the aircraft logbook and on the Visit Report Form, which is completed by the Technical Counselor, signed by the builder, and sent to the EAA by the Technical Counselor.

You, the builder, should make an entry in your aircraft log book similar to the following:

?I, Joe E. Builder, had EAA Technical Counselor #xxx, John Q. Smith, visit my project on <date> and workmanship was found to meet or exceed standard aircraft practices, signed Joe E. Builder.?

Visits are recommended prior to closing up major structures, and prior to covering any structure. For composite aircraft, visits are recommended when the aircraft structure is finished, but before any filling or painting is done. Each fabric covered structures should be inspected before covering.

For you RV builders, most areas are still inspectable after skinning but before adding fiberglass tips, etc., so several visits can be combined into one.


John Q. Smith

<phone numbers>
 
That looks like an appropriate entry. But the TC needs to be honest. I often add statements like, "Builder needs to pay more attention to deburring."

Remember the TC inspection is not intended for compliments. It is intended to critique.
 
I look at the TC process much less formally than some of you. I am another experienced builder looking at a project. I go over the work, we talk about what is good and what can be done better. I use one of the EAA forms if I have one to write down things that the builder needs to work on so that the two of us don't forget, we shake hands, have lunch, and I tell them to give me a call any time they have questions or would like me to come back.

I have never had a DAR ask to see any formal statements by a TC for any of my own projects, and my signature under a formal statements means nothing in a court of law or an FAA tribunal - not like a logbook entry of a Condition Inspection.

TC's are (experienced) builders helping builders.
 
I think that I'm with Paul on this one.

As a freshly minted TC, the documentation I received from the EAA specifically addressed not stating that the project complied with any standard or was airworthy. We as TC, have zero authority and can only provide advice and mentoring.

Their recommendation was to specifically address construction issues or techniques that the builder needed to approve. I have used "no problems or issues found". when a builder was doing a great job.

I would frown on any builder using my name and putting an entry like Gil suggested in their log book since, for at least for my visits, I never state that it's airworthy or meets any aircraft standards. That's not my role for the visit.

As far as how the TC forms get used, I have seen them requested by FSDO during their inspection and from an insurance agent. This may just be a one off person in FSDO in the way he does his due diligence. He told me that if he sees a half dozen or so TC forms, it gives him a warm fuzzy that the builder has received mentoring throughout the build. I have no idea if that changes the questions or the dialogue he has with the builder. BTW, the same FSDO person asked if I met with a Flight Counselor as well. (I had) I think we are lucky in our local area in that we have a few folks in FSDO that really care about the local homebuilders and go beyond what they are required to do, by mentoring builders whenever they have the opportunity.

My former underwriter (who is no longer underwriting GA) asked how many TC inspections that I had. I have no idea how they used that information.
 
Early on, some insurance companies gave a discount to builders who had a minimum of 3 TC visits. I think that is no longer a practice.

BTW, it does give the inspector somewhat of a "warm fuzzy" feeling if there are TC visits on record. It shows us that the builder has solicited outside inspections as opposed to building in the dark.
 
Ironflight said:
I look at the TC process much less formally than some of you. I am another experienced builder looking at a project. I go over the work, we talk about what is good and what can be done better. I use one of the EAA forms if I have one to write down things that the builder needs to work on so that the two of us don't forget, we shake hands, have lunch, and I tell them to give me a call any time they have questions or would like me to come back.

I have never had a DAR ask to see any formal statements by a TC for any of my own projects, and my signature under a formal statements means nothing in a court of law or an FAA tribunal - not like a logbook entry of a Condition Inspection.

TC's are (experienced) builders helping builders.
Click to expand...

Paul, that's exactly what I do...:)

I often leave with the builder having a list of "to-dos" or blue sticky tape labels all over his project. These usually do not get entered on the EAA Visit Report.

The letter came about a long time ago (mid- 90's?) when I became a TC after getting an Airframe rating. IIRC, it came from the EAA handout at that time, and it was when they required the TC visits for reduced insurance.

It's not my entry in the log book, but at a first visit the builder always asks "what do I put in the log book?". As Mel says, some record should be noted, I think the question is "What should the builder enter?"

PS You get lunch? :eek:
 
In the 12 we don't get our log books until (I guess) the engine. Of course I know I can just buy one, but I've had several TC inspections done and didn't even think of a log book entry; nor did the TC.

Bob
 
bhassel said:
In the 12 we don't get our log books until (I guess) the engine. Of course I know I can just buy one, but I've had several TC inspections done and didn't even think of a log book entry; nor did the TC.
Bob
Click to expand...

TC inspections need to go in the builder's log, Not the airframe log.
 
My DAR liked that I had TC visits, we discussed that as prep for the inspection.

For my ELSA RV12 I used the plans themselves as my builders log. I checked off every line item and signed/dated each page when complete. I used temporary post-it markers for any items on a page that I delayed until later for some reason, and did not sign the page until every item was cleared.

My DAR looked at it for not very long, he had not seen what RV12 plans looked like. He was impressed by the completeness of the plans.
 
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