jsharkey

Well Known Member
Where have people been placing the sensors for the Dynon D100?

Manual says OAT probe is often umder the HS on RVs.

In air stream or shrouded?

Pictures would be a help.

Thanks

Jim Sharkey
RV6
 
put it where it'll be accurate... eg. under the wing.... near pitot tube... (eg. inspection panel)....

according to some folks who have tested it, you don't get accurate reading if mounted under HS..
 
Where have people been placing the sensors for the Dynon D100?

Manual says OAT probe is often umder the HS on RVs.

In air stream or shrouded?

Pictures would be a help.

Thanks

Jim Sharkey
RV6

Jim, the OAT on my RV-6 is located under the horizontal stab. Since the magnetometer is mounted on the "shelf" just in front of the vertical stab, this is a convenient location since the probe is wired into the mag. The probe is not shrouded, just sticking out into the slipstream which no doubt robs me of at least 0.000587 kts. ;)

Both the probe and magnetometer locations have worked flawlessly in my plane. I have the mag wrapped in a plastic baggie just in case moisture runs down the VS and finds its way to the mag.
 
Jim, the OAT on my RV-6 is located under the horizontal stab. Since the magnetometer is mounted on the "shelf" just in front of the vertical stab, this is a convenient location since the probe is wired into the mag. The probe is not shrouded, just sticking out into the slipstream which no doubt robs me of at least 0.000587 kts. ;)

Both the probe and magnetometer locations have worked flawlessly in my plane. I have the mag wrapped in a plastic baggie just in case moisture runs down the VS and finds its way to the mag.

Thanks - good info.

PS - Wasn't worried about drag but the effect on tempeature accuracy :)

Jim Sharkey
 
This is how I mounted the remote compass in my 8. The outside temp probe is under the right wing. Papa

remotecompassmount.jpg


compassinplace.jpg
 
If you mount your OAT sensor so that it is being hit by the freestream, you will get errors from stagnation temperature rise, which is about (TAS,mph)squared/5521. That can be as high as 7.5 mph at 200 mph TAS. It's best to mount the probe somewhere well- ventilated but out of the freestream. Inside the tailcone works very well. Each degree F gives 63' dalt error. My RMI OAT sensor is mounted behind the rear spar and ahead of the flap, and my Dynon OAT sensor is mounted in the tailcone. They both agree in flight and agree with forecast temps. If your dalt is off in the high direction, it makes you look like you are going faster than actual. Each +10 F will give about +1% TAS error at 5000'. My recent prop testing with RVs shows there is a lot of room for improvement in placement of both the OAT sensor and the static port.
 
Check the archives

Some long well populated threads on the topic. all the best

If you mount your OAT sensor so that it is being hit by the freestream, you will get errors from stagnation temperature rise, which is about (TAS,mph)squared/5521. That can be as high as 7.5 mph at 200 mph TAS. Each +10 F will give about +1% TAS error at 5000'. My recent prop testing with RVs shows there is a lot of room for improvement in placement of both the OAT sensor and the static port.
You make a great point there is instrument error and its almost impossible to measure perfect static temp or static pressure. The good news is for most of our purpose total temp (TAT) reading is good enough. We have ways to work with it. It only becomes an issue if you specifically need Static Air Temp (SAT) for weather reports and to determine icing conditions.


Where did you get your temp "Ram Rise" formula? If I am using it correctly @ 200 mph:

(200 mph)^2 / 5521 = 7.24F (must be F right?). That's sounds high even for degrees-F. I think its more like 2-3(C) or 3-5(F) rise. I don't have a formula off the top of my head for stagnation air temp rise, its kind of complicated formula I recall. It also depends on the "recovery factor". You never get 100% rise or stagnation. The type of "thermometer" you are using also affects the reading.

TAT = SAT + Ram Rise or Stagnation Rise; TAT is always higher than SAT; the temp increase is the due to the energy of bringing the moving air to rest and compressing it (on the OAT probe).

Many TAS "calculator"s expect you to supply TAT (total air temp) or indicated temp anyway, not SAT (static air temp). The TAS calculator takes care of the small "ram rise" temp error. The formula for TAS using TAT (kts) using TAT (total temp) & Mach is:

TAS (kts) = 39*Mach*sqrt(TAT) Ref

For example the Dynon EFIS gives TAS - It already knows indicated or total air temp (TAT), altitude, airspeed (dynamic pressure) and static pressure. From this is can calculate (estimate) TAS fairly accurately provided the data is accurate. SAT is not needed but is accounted for.

Even if your temp is off 5F its only makes a less than 1 mph difference.

Really TAT/SAT is an issue for jets, but you make a good point, there can be some error due to temp. On jets they have fancy Rosemont probes or TAT probes, that are very accurate, since the recovery factor is known. From that the air data computer calculates SAT, which may not be directly displayed, except on a secondary FMC (flt management computer) page. The temp that is displayed prominently all the time on most large aircraft EFIS is TAT not SAT. TAT is what'ss used just like us. If ATC wants to know the air temp from a jet at their altitude, the crew should give SAT (but might require a few buttons get punched to read it). For RV's, SAT & TAT are close enough. Ball park assume SAT is a centigrade or two less than indicated by our simple OAT system. However most RV's read high OAT mostly from engine heat.


PROBE LOCATION:
Putting the OAT probes inside the planes structure might be and issue, since structure can heat-up & actually increase temp readings, if not well ventilated to ambient air. You could route some outside air to it and vent that air for continuous but slow flow, that would work (if heat is not picked up in the duct). I like the idea of not having the probe impinged directly by the free air; I suppose you could put it behind the pitot mast standoff and reduce the recovery factor or temp rise, but it's easy to just put it out in the breeze. Accept you're reading TAT not SAT. Like I say the electonic E6B's have ways to deal with that. The real source of temp error is the heat from the engine. The further away the OAT probe is from the engine the better.

I agree 100% that the static source can be a significant source of error.
 
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How does under the HS with a carved foam (I have access to Rohacell scraps), aerodynamic windshield mounted (glued) in front of it sound?

Jim Sharkey

Sorry - murdered the English language there!
 
When I spoke to Dynon two years ago, they said they neither correct for compressibility nor for stagnation rise. I was looking at a friend's data from a very fast Sport-class racer, and as his speed increased, his dalt went up even though the baro alt. stayed the same. At around 400 mph TAS, stagnation rise is about 29F. I spoke to his avionics maker, and asked them what percentage stagnation rise they used, and where they recommended mounting the OAT sensor. They wanted it under the fuselage to keep it out of the sun. I told them that the bottom of the fuselage had a lot of hot exhaust. I said that I thought they ought to tell their users to mount the sensor out of the free-stream, and not try to come up with some one-percentage-fits-all. Ron Mowrer of RMI told me he uses/used 85%rise. On Klaus' airplane, with the RMI uencoder, the sensor was mounted flush, so he got only 1C or 2C rise. As a result, his dalt came out lower than it should and so his TAS was also lower. Not good when you are trying to do lots of comparison testing at a constant dalt. I think that avionics makers ought to tell their users about this source of error, which on our faster planes becomes meaningful. As far as static error is concerned, I had my friend who was doing prop testing build up some thickness behind the rivet static port on his RV-6. A half washer about 1/16" thick mounted just behind the port got his IAS error down to about 1-2 mph from 10-12mph.
 
When I spoke to Dynon two years ago, they said they neither correct for compressibility nor for stagnation rise.
That is good to know. Too bad, it would be easy to program their little chip with fudge factors or a corrected formula to read accurate TAS, but it does not surprise me. Most GA is observed temp or total temp, with ram raise ignored or included. Unless dynon did "recovery factor" test of their specific probe & developed some correction data, fine tuning the formula they used to calculate TAS is kind of moot.

Ram rise affects your TAS calcs in most RV's (200mph TAS) 1.3 kts or 1.5 MPH max (its a factor but small)

Play with your favorite E6B TAS calculator/computer and mess with different temps in a range of 5F; its worth about 1.2 kts (1.38 mph) @ 200 mph TAS @ 8,500' std temp. It varies with altitude/temp, but we also fly in a limited range of altitudes. So you can assume your TAS is off about 1 mph low at high speed using indicated Temp. The ASA CX-1 E6B electronic calculator allows you to use either Indicated or Actual temp.

With an airspeed indicator, IAS v CAS, there's a correction table given. Through some flight test you might be able to determine temp error. Flight Test idea? With an accurate air temp @ the field, fly low and fast and note difference in temp from ground static and flying fast. It will give you one data point. I suspect if your temp gauge does not read in 1/10ths you won't see much.

How accurate are those MEAT Thermometers in Piper windscreens and Cessna Air vents? I guess they are bimetallic. The real problem I recall is parallax, just reading the needle from the pilot seat. You where lucky to know temp within 5F or 10F.

I estimate in-flight SAT (ball park) by getting local surface temps and using the standard lapse rate (2C or 3.6F per 1000') and also using FT (forcast wind/temp aloft). Its a good reality check and accurate.

I have to be honest, I don't care about temp or TAS too much. I just look at the GPS ground speed. :rolleyes:

If you do bury the OAT probe in the structure you should probably insulated the probe and route air to & from the probe, may be through little scoops.
 
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I'd like to see an user enterable OAT probe recovery factor if the system has enough info to calculate TAS. It doesn't matter what default the avionics manufacturer uses (e.g. 0 for Dynon, or 0.85 for RMI), it won't be correct for all installations.
 
Jim, the OAT on my RV-6 is located under the horizontal stab. Since the magnetometer is mounted on the "shelf" just in front of the vertical stab, this is a convenient location since the probe is wired into the mag. The probe is not shrouded, just sticking out into the slipstream which no doubt robs me of at least 0.000587 kts. ;)

Both the probe and magnetometer locations have worked flawlessly in my plane. I have the mag wrapped in a plastic baggie just in case moisture runs down the VS and finds its way to the mag.

To anyone who mounted the magnetometer on the rear deck shelf. Did you mount it flat or make a bracket to make it parallel with the sloping instrument panel and therefore keep it aligned to the D100 within 1 deg in all planes? If you didn't did you notice any adverse affect?

Jim Sharkey
RV6 - Wiring etc
 
Sensor Positions

On my RV-8 I mounted my Dynon magnetometer on the shelf underneath the rudder, angled to within .2 degree of the instrument pannel. I mounted the temp probe on the inspection cover underneath the horizontal stab.

My GPS ground speed generally matches within one to two knots the Dynon TAS + or - the wind speed derived by the Dynon. Got lucky I guess.:D
 
To anyone who mounted the magnetometer on the rear deck shelf. Did you mount it flat or make a bracket to make it parallel with the sloping instrument panel and therefore keep it aligned to the D100 within 1 deg in all planes? If you didn't did you notice any adverse affect?

Yes, I did this and it doesn't work right. The compass indication will lag in a turn. Calibrated, it indicates heading just fine but only when straight and level. This is one of the items on my plane I need to fix.

Although I really dig my Dynon, the need to mount the magnetometer in the same orientation as the EFIS has always seemed a little lame. It *seems* that it would be logical to provide an angle setting for the magnetometer in much the same way as they provide one for the EFIS itself.
 
Yes, I did this and it doesn't work right. The compass indication will lag in a turn. Calibrated, it indicates heading just fine but only when straight and level. This is one of the items on my plane I need to fix.

Although I really dig my Dynon, the need to mount the magnetometer in the same orientation as the EFIS has always seemed a little lame. It *seems* that it would be logical to provide an angle setting for the magnetometer in much the same way as they provide one for the EFIS itself.

Thanks for the feedback Jamie.

Jim Sharkey
 
My GPS ground speed generally matches within one to two knots the Dynon TAS + or - the wind speed derived by the Dynon. Got lucky I guess.:D
The wind is calculated by taking the GPS ground speed, GPS track, calculated TAS and heading. So, there is no luck involved at all. If there are errors in the pitot system, static system or OAT, that will affect the accuracy of the calculated TAS and wind. But even then, the erroneous wind and erroneous TAS will agree with the GPS ground speed.
 
I've installed two with good results. Both times the mag was installed to a bracket on the lower fuselage skin aft of the baggage a couple feet. The temp probe went under the RH LE of the HS, just far enough aft of the LE to be protected.

All indications were correct, wiring was easy.

Don't forget the OAT connects ot the mag and mag combines the signals for transmission to the Dynon nox.

Bob