[David Paule]

This poll (if it works!) is for owners of flying RV-12s to give us an idea of the likelihood of having a problem with the Dynon system.

 

[rvbuilder2002]

Valid questions to ask with the exception of "It's been very frustrating".

I am not sure that is information of any value in a poll like this since a large percentage of the builders would probably say the same thing about "completing the canopy fiberglass", or "installing the cowling", or < fill in the blank >

 

[Brantel]

Good luck separating "Dynon" issues from the "Highly Integrated" system Van's have created.

Good luck separating "Dynon" issues from extreme differences in the skill level and knowledge of the builders/users of the 12.

Good luck separating "Dynon" issues from issues created because some people cannot or will not follow directions.

Good luck separating "Dynon" issues from the issues created by Van's locking some settings and the confusion created by the way they have handled the LOCK files.

Good luck separating "Dynon" issues from damage caused by errors on the builder's part or from impacting Mother Earth.

Good luck separating "Dynon" issues from the other 100 or more variables that are present in such complex situations.

Keep in mind that you could replace the word "Dynon" in each statement above with just about any make out there and you will get similar results. This poll will have limited value since the responses will all be subjective....

 

[jte65]

Agree with both Brantel and Scott. I will not vote on this one, as the results will not be all that helpful to anyone, as it does not distinguish the root causes of issues folks may have had.

Jeff

 

[David Paule]

The intent of the poll is to give people like myself, who are considering an RV-12 but haven't made a decision yet, a feel for the likelihood of potential problems.

I deliberately didn't try to distinguish between specific issues. Frankly I don't care whether it's an autopilot problem, a fuel pressure problem, some trouble updating or whatever.

I read in another posting that there were over 50 RV-12s built and flying. There seem to be some owners who are having a hard time with the Dynon system and its integration, and it's not clear whether this is the tip of the iceberg or a rare situation.

The ultimate question is, whether this kit is worth the hassle or not. Hence the poll.

 

[videobobk]

The ultimate question is, whether this kit is worth the hassle or not.

I seriously doubt if there is any builder on this forum who has built a plane without a hassle at some point in time. If you are looking for hassle-free flying, I could suggest Cessna, Piper, Beech, Mooney... Come to think of it, most owners of those seem to have a few hassles, too.

Bob Kelly

 

[DonFromTX]

This lurking wanna be builder was pleased with the results. From the forum I had no idea that so many people were totally satisfied with Dynon. Most encouraging!

 

[N941WR]

...The ultimate question is, whether this kit is worth the hassle or not. Hence the poll.

There are a number of factory built LSA's and E-AB's out there flying with the exact same Dynon setup as in the RV-12. If there were a Dynon specific problem, it would have come to light a few years back.

The Dynon EFIS and EMS are about as bulletproof as they get.

As the guys at Emag once told me, "You don't have a proven product until you have 500 products installed in 500 different airplanes by 500 different amateurs."

Dynon is well past that 500/500/500 point.

PS. If I were building today, I wouldn't bother with the steam gauges I installed a few years ago.

 

[Brantel]

Take the RV12 builder requirement out, open up the poll to all Dynon users including the many many other experimental airplanes and the LSA airplanes out there using Dynon and you will find that Dynon has thousands of happy customers.

You typically don't hear from the folks that are happily enjoying their equipment, you always hear from the ones that are having problems. It is too easy to draw the wrong conclusion about how well a system performs in the field.

95% positive customer satisfaction when you have 500 units in the field
80% positive customer satisfaction when you have 5000 units in the field

Which one is best???? (numbers above are for example and are totally made up)

Dynon has thousands of units in the field (at least they state they do). They are being installed in OEM built LSA's everyday along with the units being installed by us amateurs.

Are they perfect? Nope, show me one that is.....

This lurking wanna be builder was pleased with the results. From the forum I had no idea that so many people were totally satisfied with Dynon. Most incouraging!

 

[Jetguy]

Its Really About $65000 worth of Customer Support!

This poll is not really about the Dynon in its self. Its really about Vans customer service. When you buy a RV12 you are locked into a certain Avionics setup and the Rotax engine. There are parts of the RV12 wiring system that is not open to the builder. Its proprietary to Vans and they wont release it. So when the builder runs into a cliche and he calls Dynon he is unable to answer the wiring questions that Dynon asks, thus Dynon is unable to help him unless he can arrange a conference call with Dynon and Vans at the same time or call Vans and ask the Dynon questions then hang up and call back Dynon. Which takes some doing and alot of patients. When you are dishing out $65,000.00 for a project this becomes very frustrating. If it was a EAB then the builder could answer those questions. Scott McDaniels has already said on this form that it is uneconomical for Vans to work out a deal with Dynon or Rotax for special Support on the RV12. So this is what is causing the problems not the Dynon or the Rotax itself. This is also a problem with the Rotax engine. Who do you call? Since you buy the engine from Vans the other Rotax Dealers may not be as friendly when you call them with a question. How ever in most cases these problem all get worked out but because of the price tag most guys would like a little better Customer Service.

John
RV12 N1212K

 

[dick seiders]

I'm with Jetguy. The fact that is important to the RV12 buyer/builder is simply -does it work as advertised? If the answer is no then help is required to resolve the problem. As I stated in an earlier post I didn't buy a Dynon 180. I bought an RV12 from Van's that contains specified components and if there are issues it's Van's who I should be able to turn to for solutions. So far that is not the case, but the fact remains it should be.
Regarding polls and statistics I see no harm in a simple poll like David has created. It can be very informative and work well for Van's in pointing out areas of concern so they can direct their resources to address them.
I frankly don't care how many thousands of good Dynons are out there. Mine has been a pain from the getgo. I am still working to resolve the issues that exist in the 3rd iteration of this unit. When you install and attempt to use a unit in the same airplane 3 times and get 3 different results don't tell me it's the airplane.
Dick seiders 120093

 

[Brantel]

I am still working to resolve the issues that exist in the 3rd iteration of this unit. When you install and attempt to use a unit in the same airplane 3 times and get 3 different results don't tell me it's the airplane.
Dick seiders 120093

Maybe your issue is that you are trying to pin your problem on one of two variables. I think you will find that there are many more than that in the mix....

 

[dick seiders]

Yes, but the wiring harnesses, connections, and Garmin have all been checked out and the EFIS problems continue. How about a few helpful suggestions on how to fix compass heading issues for example, instead of denial that problems with Dynon are real?
Thanks for your feedback.
Dick Seiders 120093

 

[Jetguy]

Dynon heading suggestion.

Dick I got a suggestion for ya, Did you complete the EDC-D10A HEADING CALIBRATION on Page 5-3 in the Dynon installation Manual.

John
RV12 N1212K

 

[rvbuilder2002]

Yes, but the wiring harnesses, connections, and Garmin have all been checked out and the EFIS problems continue. How about a few helpful suggestions on how to fix compass heading issues for example, instead of denial that problems with Dynon are real?
Thanks for your feedback.
Dick Seiders 120093

Dick I got a suggestion for ya, Did you complete the EDC-D10A HEADING CALIBRATION on Page 5-3 in the Dynon installation Manual.

John
RV12 N1212K

And have you confirmed that the Magnetometer is not installed upside down?

 

[Brantel]

Yes, but the wiring harnesses, connections, and Garmin have all been checked out and the EFIS problems continue. How about a few helpful suggestions on how to fix compass heading issues for example, instead of denial that problems with Dynon are real?
Thanks for your feedback.
Dick Seiders 120093

My suggestion is to follow the install and operation manuals exactly on how to install, configure and calibrate your compass. If your EFIS see's your compass and the compass turns when the airplane turns, your wiring between the compass and the EFIS is fine, no reason to worry any further about that wiring. If the compass continues to be in error, call Dynon for a replacement compass. The calibration process is critical to the proper operation of the compass.

I honestly wish I was local to you so I could offer assistance....

 

[sportkid]

Problems?

My trim indicator has never worked properly (probably 10 to 15 hrs trouble-shooting) It does nothing!
OAT did not work until just recently.
I have yet to figure out how to upgrade the D180 software version.
My right-side EGT is intermittent. (Can't find the problem).
My fuel pressure indicator is never right.
My fuel gauge (D180) has never satisfied my abilily to know my fuel level.
(So I installed the mechanical gauge - and still check the level with a wooden dowel)
My compass never agrees with the 496 or my IFly700.
(So I use the D180 compass heading in confunction with the IFly 700 to set up the AP).
Warning screams at me constantly indicating 'Low Battery Level'.

Half of the fly-off is not completed because of these inefficiencies. Fifty plus years ago I was flying a J3 at the age of fifteen with no training and no 21st century technology. "I don't need no stinkin' Dynon."
But it sure would be nice.
Oh, BTW, my Mercedes dealer says he can't help me!
I know I sound flip. But I honestly don't have any idea what to do about these problems. I am not-in-any-way techno savvy. I am an author who doesn't need to know how to IT my computer. It's just like a number two pencil - I don't need to know how it was made. I DON'T CARE!
If I had built an RV6 - I would have installed steam gauges.
Congrats to those of you who are astute with technology. But to assume everyone works within those levels and to downplay their anger and frustration is counter productive, and downright mean. Thanks John, you are dead right again.
Richard

 

[jte65]

EGT issues

My right-side EGT is intermittent. (Can't find the problem).

I have a suggestion for intermittent/erratic EGT readings. I had problems with my left side being very erratic after the first few hours of flight and initially swore that my spade connectors were all installed correctly and not the issue. I used a very high quality crimping tool and also did all of my wire stripping with very good wire strippers. Dynon sent me a replacement probe (meaning I had to install new spade connectors on the probe side of the wiring). Installed the replacement and still had problems so I replaced the spade connectors on the harness side and the problem is now gone. The EGT wires have a cloth covering that does not come off easily with even a good set of strippers but must be removed completely for stable readings. I know they are also very sensitive to even small changes in voltage so anything less than a perfect crimp could lead to problems.

So, if you have not already tried replacing all of your spade connectors on the right side where you are having problems, I would suggest doing this. I have also found it very useful to mark the insulation at the point where the wire is at the proper insertion depth in the terminal. It is very easy for it to slip during crimping and then there is the potential for having less than optimal contact with the stripped portion of the wire.

Jeff

 

[Brantel]

The D180 install manual is located here.

The D180 operation manual is located here.

My trim indicator has never worked properly (probably 10 to 15 hrs trouble-shooting) It does nothing!

Pages 3-16, 6-6, 6-17 of the install manual detail the wiring, setup and calibration required to make the trim indicator work properly.

OAT did not work until just recently.

Glad you got that figured out. What was the root cause of the problem?

I have yet to figure out how to upgrade the D180 software version.

Basic directions on how to update firmware are listed here. More detail is in the help file of the Dynon Support Program. Dynon can also talk you thru the process step by step on the phone or they will upgrade your firmware for you if you don't want to risk the proceedure yourself.

My right-side EGT is intermittent. (Can't find the problem).

Bad connection most likely. Check the spade connections, they are often the problem.

My fuel pressure indicator is never right.

Pages 3-7 and 6-13 in the install manual detail the install and setup of the fuel pressure sensor. The correct sensor type must be selected.

My fuel gauge (D180) has never satisfied my abilily to know my fuel level.
(So I installed the mechanical gauge - and still check the level with a wooden dowel)

Pages 3-11 and 6-5 in the install manual detail the install, setup and calibration required for the fuel level indication.

My compass never agrees with the 496 or my IFly700.
(So I use the D180 compass heading in confunction with the IFly 700 to set up the AP).

Unless you are on the ground or flying in a vaccum, the compass will never agree with your GPS ground track. Starting on Page 5-1 in the install manual, it details how to calibrate your compass.

Warning screams at me constantly indicating 'Low Battery Level'.

Page 6-2 in the install manual details how to set your alarm threshold values.

Half of the fly-off is not completed because of these inefficiencies. Fifty plus years ago I was flying a J3 at the age of fifteen with no training and no 21st century technology. "I don't need no stinkin' Dynon."
But it sure would be nice.

Oh, BTW, my Mercedes dealer says he can't help me!

I know I sound flip. But I honestly don't have any idea what to do about these problems. I am not-in-any-way techno savvy. I am an author who doesn't need to know how to IT my computer. It's just like a number two pencil - I don't need to know how it was made. I DON'T CARE!
If I had built an RV6 - I would have installed steam gauges.
Congrats to those of you who are astute with technology. But to assume everyone works within those levels and to downplay their anger and frustration is counter productive, and downright mean. Thanks John, you are dead right again.
Richard

Well...based on your own words above, I make the following assumptions (sorry in advance if any of these are incorrect):

You are 65+ years old, can fly by the seat of your pants and do not need any technology to do so.

You are financially secure enough that you drive a Mercedes and normally your dealer does all the maintenance on it.

You are not technical, don't want to be technical, have no desire to learn about technical stuff and would rather have a turn key solution that someone else gets working and hands you the keys when it is ready.

Looks to me like you picked the wrong airplane to meet your wants/needs because the airplane you picked will never fit your list above....but I guess you could find someone local that is savy on these things and hire them to help you out with the techy stuff.

Nobody is downplaying anything. Issues are real, problems come up, equipment fails, no model/brand is perfect. Keep a positive attitude, work with those that can help you (Van's and Dynon, not so much this forum) realize that from your own admission that you may not be the best person to be troubleshooting your systems and you will get your system up and running to your satisfaction.

 

[dick seiders]

Jetguy.
yes I did the mag cal several times even tho I know once is supppsed to be enough. I also did the NSEW settings per the manual on a compass rose.

Scott,
Yes my EDC10A is installed right side up, and I did switch out the 9 pin back cover as per Van's C/N in 7/09. I took a picture of it on my IPhone and will send it to youi if you want to look for yourself.

Brantel,
I did everything by the numbers as directed in section 5 of the manual. It's not rocket science and I can read. That's the frustrating part. You do exactly as you are directed and it still doesn't perform.

All three of you:
The new thing I learned yesterday when speaking again with Dynon is that EVERYTHING is supposed to be turned on when doing the compass settings. I can't find that instruction in section 5, but I will make certain all components are on when I re-do the rose for the third time tomorrow.
Thanks for your interest and help.
Dick Seiders 120093

 

[vernhendershott]

Hi Brantel,

Your last post is very well intentioned and would be correct if it were a fellow RV-7 builder who purchased a D-180 and was having issues and I do appreciate that your heart is in the right place trying to provide help for another RV builder with issues. However, this man is building a fine RV-12 and the avionics is sold as pre-setup plug and play, it should and most of the time does work out of the box if we follow the Van's instructions, which do at some points tell us to preform some of the steps in the Dynon installation manual, but for the most part we have no real information on the wiring as it is done in ways that work right but are not the same as the plan in the Dynon manual. Since Dynon is not permitted to have the details of RV-12 wiring they have problems giving us help and Van's has very limited skills in providing the support needed to solve interesting issues like we have here. In the end Van's customer who did all he could to avoid avionics because he is not trained in this area is having a very hard and frustrating time of it. When we offer solutions that do not fit the problem we just add to the confusion and frustration being experienced by Van's customer who has had to come here because he is not getting the help he needs form Dynon (not their fault) or Van's.

It would be good for all of us to remember that this is a RV-12 issue and we need to be reading the RV-12 Van's directions before we make suggestions as to what to do next.

Best regards,
Vern

 

[Brantel]

Vern,

For the most part I agree with you.

Van's needs to give up the wiring schematic or at least share it with Dynon. They also need someone on staff that can support what they are selling. This would help stop the finger pointing and get the support back where it belongs instead of on this forum.

The fact remains though that a D180 is a D180, the AP74 and servos..., a 327 is a 327, a 496 is a 496 and they all interface the same way no matter what airplane they are installed in. One can use that knowledge to reverse engineer Van's side of the equation or at least use that info to troubleshoot issues. Granted it does make it much more difficult and will require a greater level of skill to do so. Sure Van's has locked a few parameters etc., that adds another layer of complexity to it but the things that are locked are most likely not something that should be changed anyway.

I wish the best for all of you RV12 guys with problems! The system can work as advertised as it has been proven many times over, I sure hope for your sake's that Van's will open up and work with Dynon to resolve your issues quickly.

 

[dick seiders]

David, just curious that the percentage nos. appear to be incorrect? For example shouldn't the individual categories number be divided by the total number of responses to be an accurate representation of the % of the total? Not complaining as I love the poll, and hope Van's is thinking something like gee- maybe 30% of our buyers being unhappy with Dynon issues is something that needs to be looked at?
Anyway good job with the whole idea!
Dick Seiders 120093

 

[JBPILOT]

Hey Dick

I think that is one of those mathematical things. You can vote in more than one category, and makes the figures look different - make sense ?

John Bender

 

[dick seiders]

Not to me John. If it's going to be representative of the RV12 flyers there can only be one vote each. ie; pick your category and vote, period. If we can vote in multiple categories it's not worth a da-m.
Dick Seiders

 

[JBPILOT]

Hey Dick

The options would have to have been more clearly defined then. Take it for what it's worth. Gives you a good idea as to how people feel. Don't read too much into it. Take what you want from it. Lets people know there have been issues. The REAL problem is defining WHAT has caused them. Builders, or products problems.

John Bender

 

[David Paule]

My intent was to give people a chance to select a position partway between replacing the thing with steam gauges and having problems and being frustrated and unable to fix it, but not quite at the point of abandonment.

That one selection, though, led me to accept multiple picks - and I've got to say that it was a mistake and so was the wording of that one selection.

First poll, sorry - I'll do better if I need to make another.