K

kblack

Member
I'm in the middle of Phase 1 with my RV-7, and trying to figure out exactly what I need to do about Charts and Database Updates.

Stein built my panel around a 2-screen Dynon Skyview system and a Garmin GNS 430W that he helped me locate on the used market early last year. I have the one-time Dynon Aviation and Obstacles Database subscription. The GNS 430W gives me IFR WAAS capability for ADS-B Out. I'm running the latest Dynon v14.1... firmware and have checked that the 430W is outputting the latest ADS-B+ info (it has v5.1 software). All that seems to be working fine.

The Skyview HSI displays Garmin GPS info. I was not getting Garmin VOR/ILS to interface with the Skyview HSI, and we thought I might need to update the Garmin to the latest v5.3 software. That turned out to not be needed. Instead, I found/fixed a Garmin VOR/ILS/GS ARINC 429 Config was wrong. I also rewired the AutoPilot control head to take advantage of Dynon's auto-trim capability. Wow! Great system. Easy to use, intuitive, ...

Anyway, I've used ForeFlight for a couple of years, and really like the way it works.

I don't _think_ I need to pay for the Jepp DB updates for the Garmin. And I don't think I want to fool with the Seattle Charts subscription. It would be nice to have the charts on the panel displays, but it seems like a lot of folks have a lot of issues with these things. Instead, the Dynon WiFi interface will let me plan, upload, and change plans using the iPad with ForeFlight. On the iPad, I see Approach overlays, etc. Provided I have a WAAS GPS for primary guidance, I'm legal. Right?

But what will I lose in the way of automatic sequencing, vertical guidance, etc, if I don't update the Garmin Aviaion DB with a Jepp subscription? Anything? Or will I still get all of that from the info that uploads from the ForeFlight iPad to the SkyView system?

Thoughts and opinions?
 
I took a slightly different view of this. My stuff is D100, G430W, and G696. I'm paying for the subscriptions on both the 430W and the 696, and not using iPad or Android anymore.

The 696 is connected to ships power, so IF I lose the 430W I've got full battery to get me down. My Trutrak Gemini ADI that i use for backup is slaved to the 696. Can't do that with a tablet.

I'm probably paying a premium in redundancy, but us single old dudes can splurge ;)
 
To use that 430W for GPS based approaches or on approaches using GPS waypoints, it must have a current Navigation database to be legal.
 
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kblack said:
I don't _think_ I need to pay for the Jepp DB updates for the Garmin. And I don't think I want to fool with the Seattle Charts subscription. It would be nice to have the charts on the panel displays, but it seems like a lot of folks have a lot of issues with these things. Instead, the Dynon WiFi interface will let me plan, upload, and change plans using the iPad with ForeFlight. On the iPad, I see Approach overlays, etc. Provided I have a WAAS GPS for primary guidance, I'm legal. Right?

But what will I lose in the way of automatic sequencing, vertical guidance, etc, if I don't update the Garmin Aviaion DB with a Jepp subscription? Anything? Or will I still get all of that from the info that uploads from the ForeFlight iPad to the SkyView system?

Thoughts and opinions?
Click to expand...

If you want to use the Garmin 430W for anything other than a VOR/ILS receiver during IFR, you must have an updated database - period. If you only fly VFR than the SkyView updates already provide what you need.

You do not need to keep the terrain or obstacle database updated in the 430W for IFR, just the nav (so you save a few dollars there). As the SkyView already updates all this for free - and you will be using that far more than the 430W, you do not loose any capability.

I found using Jeppenson to keep my 650 updated was a little cheaper than the Garmin subscription.

At $99 per year the Seattle Avionics charts are nice. The best piece is you get a geo reference approach plate on your SkyView display (the little airplane telling you where you are). For everything else I find the basic ForeFlight to do everything else (95% flight planning, 5% while flying). The main use in the cockpit is when the controller gives me yet another IFR routing change and I need to figure it out. I have a WiFi only iPad so I use the Bad Elf Bluetooth GPS receiver - a very nice unit.

Overall I would not rely on an iPad for any element of IFR flight. It provides a nice situational awareness and backup capability, but no more.

Carl
 
Thanks for the quick replies. Sounds like I have to update the GNS430W Aviation DB for IFR, so I'll do that. And based on everthing I've learned so far, it also sounds like using WiFi to link ForeFlight to Skyview is a pretty good way to go for chart overlays and more. I'm going to give it a shot. I might try the Seattle subscription later on.

For backup charts, I generally print hard-copy approaches, arrivals, etc, that I expect to use. There's some risk of ending up in a no-charts scenario, but I think it's small and manageable. To keep the sunny side up, I have separate turn coordinator, altimeter, and airspeed steam gages. And a wet compass - I'm old-school about this stuff. Software/Firmware just have too many "unforeseen" failure modes, IMHO. My electrical system includes a PlanePower backup alternator with critical items on a Battery bus and an E-Bus. And of course the Dynon display has a backup battery. I did my best to look at most likely failure modes and worst case scenarios wrt the electrical system.
 
Huh?

Not using an iPad with a stratus for in flight weather in IFR? I wouldn't fly IFR without inflight weather and for a long time all I had was an iPad that could do that. I disagree.

Jim
 
Jimd said:
Not using an iPad with a stratus for in flight weather in IFR? I wouldn't fly IFR without inflight weather and for a long time all I had was an iPad that could do that. I disagree.

Jim
Click to expand...

Was this to me? The 696 displays weather and traffic from a hardwired GDL-39.
 
What a tangled web we weave!

So, I got curious about exactly what the FAA has to say wrt GPS Navigator DB currency. Rant on - HOW MUCH MORE COMPLICATED CAN WE POSSIBLY MAKE THIS STUFF! Rant off. If you've not taken a look at what the AIM has to say, good luck. I honestly can't follow most of it. Guess I'm like Forrest Gump, "... not a smart man." Anyway, here's what I found.

John D. Collins on askacfi.com posted a very good summary here:

http://www.askacfi.com/4227/how-often-do-you-have-to-updating-gps-for-vfr-ifr.htm

After reading what Collins had to say, digging through the current AIM, and searching out examples of Garmin's Airplane Flight Manual Supplements for the GNS 430 and the GNS 430W, I _think_ it's actually legal to shoot a GPS approach with an expired Aviation DB in the GNS 430W. Maybe not wise in some cases, but legal.

As Collins points out, the AIM is not regulatory. That said, TBL 1-1-6, "GPS Approval Required/Authorized Use", Note 3, for IFR Approach, "Requires current database or verification that the procedure has not been amended since the expiration of the database." The AIM seems to allow a GPS Navigator with an expired DB to be used for an approach, provided the pilot has verified the procedure has not been amended since the DB expired. This might even be the safest, most prudent thing to do in at least one corner case. That is, the flight is being conducted when the expiration occurs.

As Collins also points out, the AFMS is regulatory. And this is where it gets messy. After a web search, I came up with what I think are the official Garmin AFMS's for the GNS 430 (non-WAAS) and the GNS 430W. For the GNS 430, "IFR enroute and terminal navigation predicated upon the GNS 430?s GPS Receiver is prohibited unless the pilot verifies the currency of the data base or verifies each selected waypoint for accuracy by reference to current approved data." The language is slightly different for the 430W, but it seems to say the same thing. So, with either unit, it seems clear we can use an expired DB for the non-approach portions of a flight, provided we confirm waypoint accuracy by other means. That is, look at a current chart.

But the Garmin AFMS's differ when it comes to approaches. The GNS 430 (non-WAAS) AFMS says, "Instrument approach navigation predicated upon the GNS 430?s GPS Receiver must be accomplished in accordance with approved instrument approach procedures that are retrieved from the GPS equipment data base. The GPS equipment database must incorporate the current update cycle." That is, the GNS 430 must have a current DB to be legal for a GPS approach. Not sure what you're supposed to do if you're airborn when the cycle expires. I guess you're illegal unless you shut down the unit, insert a spare data card that has the new cycle, and restart everything. Both impractical and potentially dangerous, IMHO. Guess the FAA lawyers would say you never should have begun the flight if depending upon a unit for which the DB might expire while on that flight. In fact, I'm pretty sure (I'm somewhat jaded), that's EXACTLY what they would say.

Garmin's AFMS for the GNS 430W is different. It states, "GPS instrument approaches using the 400W Series units are prohibited, unless the 400W Series unit?s approach data is verified by the pilot or crew to be current." That is, currency of the DB is irrelevant. But, the approach must still be current.

Bottom line (someone correct me if I'm wrong!), it looks to me like

1. Both the GNS 430 and 430W can be used for enroute and terminal navigation with an expired DB provided current charts are referenced to verify/correct any waypoints that may have changed since the last update.

2. The GNS 430 cannot be used for approaches unless it has a current Aviation DB.

3. The GNS 430W can be used for approaches with an expired DB provided the specific approach is still current.

All of that said, I don't know of a good way to update the Garmin units "every once in awhile". Looks like we're pretty much corned into a Jepp subscription with a 28 day cycle. I think they will provide one-time updates on request, but charge nearly as much as a subscription. FWIW, I plan to find out.
 
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You wrote:
...unless the 400W Series unit?s approach data is verified by the pilot or crew to be current." That is, currency of the DB is irrelevant. But, the approach must still be current.
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No, they mean that the "approach data" - the approach data on the data card - has to be current. Since that involves "hidden" lat/long data, it is impossible for you to verify yourself. You need to have the most recent data.
Yes, you may fly enroute IFR with an expired database if you verify that the waypoints are accurate.
Yes, you're pretty much screwed into paying Jepp's price for a subscription. Unless you can navigate enroute via gps but shoot a VOR or ILS at your destination. But the whole point of owning this box is to do GPS approaches!

BTW, updates come out a few days before the old ones expire, so in principle you can always have the right one in the plane. Might have to haul along a PC and your Garmin memory card reader if you're on a trip.
 
If you only fly IFR once in a while, and you pretty much know in advance when that is, then you can cut your subscription cost in half by "sharing" with someone else who is just like you. One of you updates Jan, Mar, May,... and the other Feb, April, June,... so you're never more than one month out for 'emergencies'. And if you're going on a known in advance IFR trip when you'll be out of date, swap cards with your partner. Of course if you both want to do an IFR trip at the same time this doesn't work.

Note this only works with 400W//500W series (420/430 etc) boxes.
The newer GTN series have encoding that prevents you from swapping cards.
 
Bob, I see what you're saying, but I don't think I need to go to that level of detail to know whether the planned approach data in the GNS Database is still current. If the last update on the printed plate is before the GNS DB expiration date, then nothing has been changed wrt to that approach data. I use this all the time to decide when to reprint hardcopy of some frequently used and local approaches, departures, and arrivals.
 
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