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Fellow Dynon D180 and D100 users,
Here's a nasty gram I wrote to Dynon Support today I would like your comments on. Like me you may not have know you lost a feature in the last few software releases. Dynon said if enough cards and letters are sent in the softweare developers can make changes... for the better I hope!

Note to Dynon Support 12/13/2009

Hey Guys, what did you do???

Some how I missed reading in the release notes what changed you were making. I selected a D180 and D100 in my RV-8 and was surprised to find I lost a display feature. I'm referring to the fact that I use to have two independent useable NAV sources now I don't because I can only use one at a time. Using the upper D180 HSI with NAV source on the Localizer and the lower D100's EHSI to locate the Outer Marker or Final Approach Fix, or any fix, surprised it no longer works. This was a key feature in my panel design and one of many reason for selecting the Dynon product.

I don't use your auto pilot so would love to drop back a rev to get one of my most beloved features back. I'm sure other Dynon users will also be surprised. I may have to consider a panel redesign to get back the features and capability I once had. Let the user?s know what you plan to do about this. Thanks.
 
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Dynon has never marketed a feature where you can have more than one nav source driving the HSI at a time unless you are using the HS34.

There has always been only one HSI in the Dynon system if the screens are connected via the DASB.

Without the HS34 you only can pick from between the GPS overlay or the Nav overlay. The HS34 allows you to connect the HSI CDI or the two bearing pointers to any source you wish and in any combination you wish.

If the two screens were not connected together via the DASB then you could have two different HSI's as long as your two screens were EFIS based products.

If this did as you say on the prior version, my guess is it was a bug as Dynon has never said you could do what you are proposing without the HS34.
 
Hmm, that is interesting as each of those units SHOULD be able to accept a single nav input (serial) - or was it two? Anyway I thought there was a way to get "two needles" in the units without the HS34.

Doesn't affect me as I have a single EFIS & HS34.

If it wasn't advertised as a feature, I would say it isn't particularly fair to bash them if what was an "accidental benefit" stopped working. But if it's in the literature then it should be fixed.
 
Jerry,

Just to clarify, are you referring to the ability to display the active and standby VOR/LOC on the HSI simultaneously? That's the feature briester is talking about, I believe.

I agree with Brian, it's always been either NAV or GPS, never both simultaneously. However, with an SL-30 you should be able to show both active and STBY VORs (or a localizer and a second VOR for crossing fixes). That sounds like what you are saying no longer works...am I reading that correctly?

I don't have a VOR (wish I'd gone the SL-30 route vs. the SL-40 route...anyone want to trade? :)) so I can't test this. Maybe I can talk Greg Arehart into a test flight with his SL-30/Dynon set up...you game Greg? (and are you at FW 5.2 yet?)

I remember a while back there were some issues with this feature, and some couldn't get it to work. Hopefully it wasn't dropped because it was too hard. If I ever upgrade to the SL-30, its a feature I'd like to have!

Cheers,
Bob
 
The SL-30 dual nav mode was working at some point. Several people confirmed that they had it working. Not sure if this is what he is talking about or not. If it is what he was discussing and Dynon broke that feature, they will fix it.

If that is what he is talking about, I agree as this is a huge benefit when working with the SL30....And all the competition does this as well.
 
Yes, before a release or so ago you could display different nav sources on different units connected by the DSAB or was this a fluke? I first saw this on my panel builder David Grover's RV8 using a D100 and D120. I saw this as a feature and wanted a SL30 VOR/LOC/GS on one HSI and GPS on the other and saw it first hand before I ordered the units. David was surprised when he discovered this after the release upgrade. Dynon acknowledged that this was no longer available in a phone conversation with David but suggested users could make request and see what happens. This was the intent of my first post on VAF Forum to get some interest from other users. As for the note to Dynon, this was a note of concern and personal disappointment of losing functionality. I understand this release change was to keep in line with true redundancy but I wish now I hadn't loaded the release.
 
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Jerry,

I looked at my D100 install manual, and the function you are talking about is not a fluke, even in a system that has an EFIS and EMS on DSAB together. On page 3-6 of that install manual, under "If you own an EMS and an EFIS (not Flightdek D180)" is says the following (and I'm paraphrasing for brevity):

Connect the GPS transmit line to pin 19 on the EMS DB37 connector.
Connect the SL-30 transmit line to pin 22 on the EFIS DB25 connector.

This setup apparently lets you see only the GPS HSI on the EMS, but it allows either the GPS HSI or the SL-30 HSI on the EFIS. How you switch between the two on the EFIS is not described...perhaps its another screen you can step through.

It also says that you can wire both the GPS and SL-30 transmit lines via a switch to pin 19 on the EMS DB37 if you want to see the SL-30 HSI on the EMS in addition to the GPS HSI. Doing that allows you to see either the SL-30 or GPS HSIs on either screen, but you can see only one at a time, never both.

So I'm assuming what you saw meant you are wired as described in the upper description, and yes, that is a pretty cool capability.

I saw your post on this on their forum, and will be interested to see the response on why it was eliminated. If Dynon jumps in and says "tell us you want it back", I'll certainly add my name to the list (I really do want that SL-30! ;)). Perhaps others reading this will as well.

Thanks for bringing this out! I tried to paste that page 3-6 from the manual, but it's a .pdf, and it didn't copy/paste so well. But it is available on the Dynon site. Really interested to hear more about this.

Cheers,
Bob
 
With an SL30 & GPS and a D100 & D180, they tell you to connect them both to the two serial ports on the D180, one to port one and one to port two. This allows the Dynon to pick which nav source it is going to use to drive the HSI without a need for an external switch.

When the screens are connected via the DSAB, you can get the source data driving the HSI on both screens.

And you can pick between NAV and GPS overlay on either screen when the HSI is up, but Dynon has always stated that there is only one HSI in a dual screen DSAB system and what is on one screen will be on the other.

I have been following this system for years and have never seen Dynon market the feature you say is missing...I may be all wet, who knows???
 
Bob,

I think your quoting from old manuals...The newer ones seem to be different. They are up to REV F now. The limitation for how data can flow between an EFIS and and EMS depending on where you connect the source has been removed some time back.

When the HSI is up, the HSI menu allows you to change the source driving the HSI. The HS34 makes this easier and allows more combinations.

rvmills said:
This setup apparently lets you see only the GPS HSI on the EMS, but it allows either the GPS HSI or the SL-30 HSI on the EFIS. How you switch between the two on the EFIS is not described...perhaps its another screen you can step through.
Click to expand...
 
Jerry,
What version did you upgrade from? Unless I misunderstand what you are describing, I'm guessing you upgraded from 3.0 which was released in July of '07. The upgrade which changed this behavior was 4.0, which was October of '07. That's quite a while ago!

The only reason it ever worked the way it used to was because the units didn't really talk to one another well. For instance, when the HSI's could be different, we also couldn't set the baro across your multiple EFIS units, nor were your bugs synchronized. Now, everything is in sync, including the HSI. The ability to have different HSI's was never a feature, it was a function of the fact that the units were effectively independent.

If you were really happier with the previous situation, we can help you go back to your previous version, or you can achieve the same basic effect by just not doing a DSAB network between the units. Just remember that if you do this, you need to set baro, bugs, time, clear alarms, and do a bunch of stuff on both units, not just one.
 
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Brian,

EDIT: I was previewing this post when I saw that Dynon was posting on it as well. Went back and changed some verbiage, and some of this is OBE...they 'splain it very well! Timing is everything, eh!

B, you're spot on...the manual I have saved on the computer is in fact Rev D...good catch (has it been that long since I upgraded my panel! :rolleyes:)

I compared the two docs, and the first half of the paragrapgh is nearly the same, but as you say, it no longer says if you connect the GPS to the EMS screen, you can only show GPS on that screen's HSI (and you only the get an HSI on an EMS if you have it DSAB'ed to an EFIS, of course).

The second half of that section in the older manual is also removed, where it says if you wire both SL-30 and GPS via a switch to the EMS, you lose the ability to display two NAV sources at once.

So it now is different, and the comment by Dynon that it was an unintended consequence (or benefit) of the units not communicating well makes sense. I looked at the release notes to see what FW version this was changed in, so Jerry would know what version to revert to if he wants this back. Per Dynon's post, its a while back. However, there are a lot of improvements over the last few updates that deal with GPS track, SL-30 course tuning and other NAV source related issues, so you might lose capability by going back. Some are admittidly HS-34 and AP related improvements, so that may be less important to you.

Brian, a Q since you have multiple screens and an HS-34 and AP-74. Can you get VOR on one screen and GPS on the other with an HS-34? I may go for a used D180 down the road to replace my VM-1000 if a friend ups to Skyview in the future. Just wunderin' what you see on your set up. Thanks!

Cheers,
Bob
 
rvmills said:
Brian, a Q since you have multiple screens and an HS-34 and AP-74. Can you get VOR on one screen and GPS on the other with an HS-34? I may go for a used D180 down the road to replace my VM-1000 if a friend ups to Skyview in the future. Just wunderin' what you see on your set up. Thanks!

Cheers,
Bob
Click to expand...

Bob,

You cannot get one screen to show one version of the EHSI and another to show a different one because remember there is only one EHSI in a dual screen DSAB connected system but what you can do as long as you have the HS34:

GPS driving the main EHSI CDI
SL30 active channel driving one of the Bearing Pointers (RMI)
SL30 standby channel driving the second Bearing Pointer (RMI)

Or

SL30 active channel driving the main EHSI CDI
SL30 standby channel driving one of the bearing pointers (RMI)
GPS driving one of the bearing pointers (RMI)

Or any combination of the above since with a GPS and the SL30 you really have three nav data sources and with the HS34, you have a main EHSI CDI and two bearing pointers (RMI's) at your disposal and the HS34 allows you to set any combination of those you want.

This is a very cool function of the HS34 that unlocks the power of the Dynon EHSI! Imagine using the main EHSI CDI to track a localizer, the first bearing pointer to check for a cross fix for stepdown and the second bearing pointer locating the LOM or other required fix all on the same EHSI indicator.

Add a 430W into the mix and you can have even more sources to pick from.
 
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Thanks guys for the history lesson. I think I got it now and would prefer to keep the latest release. Looks like the HS34 may do what I want and still retain redundancy. Thanks again.
 
Thanks Brian,

What you describe is really more of what I was trying ask...whether you can display more than one navaid at the same time with the HS-34 (didn't need to be on two EFIS CDIs).

I'd find it much more valuable to have both EFIS screens' CDIs on the same navaid, but be able to see additional needles on the RMI, just as you describe it.

Probably a product of my crew-oriented job and the fact that I'd have one large EFIS on each side of the cockpit if I add the D180. I really wouldn't want to be tuning separate CDIs for crossing radials anyway (like the old days with two windshield wiper CDIs, before I found HSIs and RMIs)...a primary CDI display with secondary radials on an RMI-like display is great SA (IMHO). Just add the moving map, and voila! :)

Thanks again!

And Jerry, sorry for the thread drift. Like you said...maybe an HS-34 is the ticket to get back what you had and still enjoy all the improvements in later FW. I will say that having a value knob on the AP-74 has really made things nice...much less button smashing. The HS-34 does that and more, from what it looks like!

Cheers,
Bob
 
Jerry,

On the subject of redundancy...

They also added some failover capability to the HS34 in the fact that if you connect your Nav sources to both the HS34 and the screen's serial ports, if the HS34 fails, the EHSI will failover to the serial Nav sources and keep on working.

FreeStyle said:
Thanks guys for the history lesson. I think I got it now and would prefer to keep the latest release. Looks like the HS34 may do what I want and still retain redundancy. Thanks again.
Click to expand...
 
Dual Navs and Dual CDIs

Jerry (freestyle) makes a great point about having two independent HSIs able to display nav data from two different nav receivers. Please his note is NOT about two Navs being displayed on one HSI. It is about spending the money for two boxes; a D180 and a D100 and having two displays on which to see two separate nav sources.

I fly single pilot IFR in my Cherokee and always use two navs with two CDIs (OMNIs). There are many use cases for this need. For example:

USE CASE 1: On final using Nav 1 on the ILS, the missed approach is often a radial to a VOR so Nav 2 and he cooresponding CDI is set and receiving the VOR and dialed into the radial. With this I am ready to switch from flying the ILS to flying the second CDI for go-around and fly the VOR/radial.

I am planning to install Dynon in my RV-7. And I am thinking that with a D180 and D100 that I'd be able to track Nav 1 (GPS) on the D180 while tracking a VOR or from Nav2 receiver on the D100. Per Dynon it sounds like I better NOT connect these two boxes (D180 & D100) together, because if I do I lose one of the nav displays. I can't see the benefit of the integration if it dis-ables two separate nav displays.

USE CASE 2. When flying a GPS route I often want to know when I'm passing by a VOR on a specific radial. So I dial in the VOR into Nav 2, set the CDI to the radial and wait for the needle to swing. How do you do this if both HSIs are displaying the same thing.

USE CASE 3. How do you do a dual VOR test to see if Nav1 and Nav2 are within limits?

So suggestion for Dynon Support, I question the 'rightness" of giving up two Nav displays in a two display cockpit for the benefit of integration? I question the use cases you may be using to drive development. I could be totally screwed up on this, based on just what I've read here. I'm still over a year from needing avionics but will I be looking to have two EFIS screens each with an HSIs that can display Nav data separately on each. I don't want EFIS 2's HSI to display EFIS 1's nav data.

And I'll be looking for the autopilot to have a switch Nav 1 / Nav 2 that allows it to be driven by either of the nav receivers.

much appreciated.
 
You can do exactly what you want in all cases listed on one HSI if you add the HS34 to the mix.

The one HSI has a main CDI and 2 RMI pointers. These can be viewable at the same time.

Here is an example of a LOC/GS and both the active and standby Nav channels of a SL30 being used at the same time. This one even has DME comming from something shown as well.

16m3pn5.jpg


With the HS34, you can set any of your sources to any of those needles.

Why use screen space for displaying two HSI's and have to look in two different locations when you can show all that data on one HSI and only use 1/6th of your screen space????

On the AP, whatever you have driving the main HSI CDI is what is controlling the AP.


Matter of fact, I don't think any EFIS system out there allows two networked screens to display two different HSI's being driven by completely different sources. Might be wrong but I have never seen it.
The majority of big iron and general aviation aircraft with an EHSI only have one per side. Older planes with a regular HSI that only has one needle on them typically have an HSI and another CDI or CDI/GS.

sglynn said:
Jerry (freestyle) makes a great point about having two independent HSIs able to display nav data from two different nav receivers. Please his note is NOT about two Navs being displayed on one HSI. It is about spending the money for two boxes; a D180 and a D100 and having two displays on which to see two separate nav sources.

I fly single pilot IFR in my Cherokee and always use two navs with two CDIs (OMNIs). There are many use cases for this need. For example:

USE CASE 1: On final using Nav 1 on the ILS, the missed approach is often a radial to a VOR so Nav 2 and he cooresponding CDI is set and receiving the VOR and dialed into the radial. With this I am ready to switch from flying the ILS to flying the second CDI for go-around and fly the VOR/radial.

I am planning to install Dynon in my RV-7. And I am thinking that with a D180 and D100 that I'd be able to track Nav 1 (GPS) on the D180 while tracking a VOR or from Nav2 receiver on the D100. Per Dynon it sounds like I better NOT connect these two boxes (D180 & D100) together, because if I do I lose one of the nav displays. I can't see the benefit of the integration if it dis-ables two separate nav displays.

USE CASE 2. When flying a GPS route I often want to know when I'm passing by a VOR on a specific radial. So I dial in the VOR into Nav 2, set the CDI to the radial and wait for the needle to swing. How do you do this if both HSIs are displaying the same thing.

USE CASE 3. How do you do a dual VOR test to see if Nav1 and Nav2 are within limits?

So suggestion for Dynon Support, I question the 'rightness" of giving up two Nav displays in a two display cockpit for the benefit of integration? I question the use cases you may be using to drive development. I could be totally screwed up on this, based on just what I've read here. I'm still over a year from needing avionics but will I be looking to have two EFIS screens each with an HSIs that can display Nav data separately on each. I don't want EFIS 2's HSI to display EFIS 1's nav data.

And I'll be looking for the autopilot to have a switch Nav 1 / Nav 2 that allows it to be driven by either of the nav receivers.

much appreciated.
Click to expand...
 
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As Brian touched on, we do support bearing pointers, which do exactly what you want (and are why EHSI's always have them).

A bearing pointer tells you what radial you are on for a given VOR (or what the bearing to the waypoint is on GPS). It's the same as setting the VOR to whatever OBS centers the needle on "TO".

Given that all the cases have you wanting to know what radial you are on from the secondary VOR, we do present that. I really does work well, and I think you'll find it to be a better solution than two separate CDI's. EHSI's are a big step up.
 
excellent

Excellent, Thank you for the clarification. I can hardly wait to go flying in my RV-7A.
 
Just a quick follow-up, after flying Greg's RV-9 today to test his encoder...gave us a chance to test the SL-30 active/stand-by pointers.

Flew an ILS to Reno Intl, and had the stand-by on Mustang VOR. Localizer was displayed on the ADI CDI+GS as well as in the EHSI as a green CDI. Mustang was displayed as the orange #1 RMI pointer. Both worked as advertised...really nice display.

As Greg does not have an HS-34, we had to switch from GPS to NAV (he has a toggle installed). From what I gather, with an HS-34, #2 RMI needle would have pointed to whatever GPS waypoint was entered in his 496 (in this case, the Reno RW 16R waypoint is what we had in there). Nice!

Brian, to see if I have this correct...switching the scenario...if we had and HS-34 and were navigating to a GPS waypoint as primary NAV, and had the SL-30 tuned to 1 VOR as active and another VOR as STBY, then the EHSI would show the magenta CDI (the same one I always see with my 396), the active VOR would be the orange #1 RMI needle and the stby VOR would be the yellow #2 RMI needle...correct?

All pretty cool stuff!

Thanks, and Merry Christmas! (Now if the kiddos would fall asleep I could play Santa...shhhh, don't tell! ;))

Cheers,
Bob
 
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D100 - D180 - AP74 combo "issue"

Not to throw cold water on this thread and folks expectations, but I have the D100, D180, DSAB, & AP74 combo, and the D180 occasionally reboots itself.

Yes, the D180 reboot completes in 6-7 seconds, but on two occasions in busy airspace, 6-7 seconds with a blank HSI, loss of glideslope, loss of autopilot, all at the same time, was 6 seconds too long for this old man.

Yes, Dynon knows about this BUG. No, it was not an error in our wiring (basically, we rewired the airplane looking for the answer). Yes, it occurred in rev 5.1 and continues in 5.2. Yes, I have repeatedly asked for a patch from Dynon to no avail.

My "choices" (sic) are to eliminate the AP74 and go back to (too many) buttons, split the DSAB, avoid IFR, or replace the D180 with a D120 (which sacrifices the redundancy provided by the D180).

The simple solution is a software repair and given that our hangar team demonstrated this problem can be duplicated on the ground w/o the engine running, testing is easy.

All I want for Christmas is a software fix!
 
Send it back and they will either fix it or replace it. 180's should not just reboot for no reason! This sounds like a hardware issue to me. Let them look at it and if they can repeat the issue, they will make it right! All the patches in the world won't fix a hardware issue......
 
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I apologize if my comments diverted this thread.

Brian:

Dynon replaced the D180, compass & the AP74 w/o remedy. They instructed me to change various wiring which we did at great expense and time. After many frustrating hours, Chet and I determined that we could duplicate the reboot situation on the ground. At that point it became easy to conduct whatever tests Dynon requested.

After many days/weeks/hours of testing we also determined that if we DSABed the D100 & D180 with the servos and AP74 breaker pulled, then DSABed a second time with the servos and AP74 breaker in, the frequency of reboot decreased from as little as every 30 minutes to several hours but we could detect no pattern. Further, log entries offered no clues.

Via email and phone call, Dynon confirmed that they duplicated this situation in their lab and also that 5.2 would not rectify this situation.

I admire your confidence in the vendor. I hope they will remedy this (almost) year long issue eventually, but for those who are contemplating using the D100, D180, AP74 combo to fly hard IFR, I would be remiss not to let them know of this problem.

As far as I know, only the D100, D180 & AP74 combo has this issue.
 
Barry, I must be slipping in my old age....I was part of the email list sharing details on your issues...I should have remembered that!!! Sorry!

Ok, great that you guys are working together to solve the issue.

Sorry it is taking so long for them to get it resolved.

Really bad that that configuration is the only one that I would accept for an IFR ship with only Dynon products.

I am sure they will fix it, when who knows but if they can duplicate it on their end, they have a chance to find the root cause.

Maybe the Skyview is taking away critical resources from the legacy products. This is a serious issue and if Dynon knows it is a real problem, they need to step forward and inform anyone that may have this combo of gear.
 
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I feel like such a dope...I have a ton of emails from Barry detailing this issue.

I have a hard time connecting forum names with real names...
 
Thanks for your help Brian!

Brian:

It's Christmas, be nice to yourself. I appreciate the help you afforded me and the help you provide many others. Your in depth understanding of these products is commendable & exemplary. We're lucky to have you "aboard".

Yes, Dynon is able to duplicate the problem, and when they finally did duplicate it they were apologetic for the extraordinary effort they put us thru.

Yes, I hope to see a resolution & Chet and I offered to assist Dynon in any way possible. Because we can duplicate it on the ground, we're able to control the environment. Essentially, when we start an experiment, we set the two screens into a non default mode. Therefore, if they reboot, they will reappear in the default screen. The log has been of no value thus far.

Via an external trickle charger, we keep ships power and the two internal batteries alive but we've tested it w/o the trickle charger (allowing the batteries to eventually discharge) and got the same results.

Like you, I hope that our vendor has not turned his attention to the new products at the expense and safety of the older products.

A million years ago, when I was a young man & coded assembler language, cobol and fortran, we used to work with stacks. This problem reminds me what devices do when a stack overflows, but of course, I can only speculate.

If you have any other thoughts & ideas, feel free to email and/or call.
 
Barry (and Brian):

Thanks for discussing the 180/100/AP74/Servo combi issues you are having.

Since I have a D100/D10A/AP-74/Servo network, and am contemplating purchasing a friend's D180 to replace my VM-1000, this could be a bug that could reach up and bite.

Is there a way I can follow your progress in resolution (a thread here or on Dynon's forum, or an e-mail list to be added to)?

Thanks again, and good luck in finding the answer!

Cheers,
Bob
 
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