jaredyates

jaredyates

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I've read in the literature that the D100 can get GPS nav information from the GNS 430. Since the GNS 430 also has VOR and LOC navigation, can the dynon get that information from the 430 too?

In other words, if the 430 was the only nav receiver, could you still get VOR and localizer information on the dynon? I haven't seen that written unambiguously so far.

Sorry for asking such a basic question.
 
To fully integrate with the 430/430W, you will need the HS34. It has the ARINC ports needed to get VOR/LOC/GS and GPSS/GPSV(430W) data out of the 430/430W.

If you do not have a HS34, all you can get out of a 430/430W is serial GPS data which does not include the VOR/LOC/GS or GPSS/GPSV(430W) data.


Not sure if your considering Dynon's AP as well but if you are, you will want to take advantage of the GPSS from the 430/430W. They just released ver 5.1 and it supports GPSS.

Hopefully they will come thru with the original planned AP76 and if they do, this will also allow you to take advantage of the GPSV out of a 430W as well.

GPSS/GPSV, An AP that supports both, the 430W and a LPV approach are a thing of beauty to behold! Bonus = Holding patterns, procedure turns and DME arcs are flown automatically with ultimate precision.
 
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It sounds like the trick is to use the Airinc bus instead of the serial. Thanks for the help!
 
Yep. You must use ARINC-429 from the 430 in order to get NAV/ILS. This is simply because the 430 doesn't output this data over serial.

In order to use ARINC with the Dynon systems, you need an HS34.
 
Just a point of clarification: Most of the TT autopilots do NOT accept VOR/ILS steering even if it is in ARINC format. The Sorcerer does, and I believe one other does.

In another thread it was discussed how the DigiFlight II VSGV can be "tricked" into accepting two GPS signals simultaneously. In this case, you would hook up the ARINC output lines from your 430/530/480 to the ARINC input lines on the TruTrak, and then hook up the Serial Output line from your x96 hand held (or other backup GPS) to the TT Serial In line.

If you do this, and your primary loses signal, the TT will revert to True Course referencing the Serial signal from the backup. If you had configured your backup GPS to receive flight plan data from your primary GPS, or if you had entered the same flightplan into the backup, you could then press the MODE button on the TT and it will resume flying the flight plan from the backup. You will not be able to fly precision approaches with vertical guidance from a Serial connection, even if the backup GPS is GPSS capable.

What happens if you lose both GPS's may depend on when you bought your TT autopilot. A recent post on their site indicates they no longer include the magnetometer in the newer Digiflight IIs and other models. If you have an older model and all GPS signal is lost, the TT will switch to Magnetic Heading mode. In the newer models, I do not know what will happen but apparently it will not be following any course information.
 
Just to clarify, GPS and GPS steering are totally different. Related to this, there's no such thing as ILS/NAV steering.

The use of a GPS for an HSI or autopilot is possible over serial or ARINC. In this mode, the AP or HSI shows how far you are in NM left or right of course. If you're an AP, in this mode you just try and fly with zero distance left or right of course. This means the plane flies straight and level until it gets to a waypoint, and then the GPS snaps to a new waypoint and the aircraft overflies the waypoint as it starts a turn

In GPS steering mode, the GPS actually tells the AP to roll X degrees left or right. The GPS is now actually part of the AP. The advantage of this is that the GPS can roll into a turn before it gets to a waypoint since it knows the turn is coming up, or it can have the plane fly something complex like a hold.

GPS steering is only output over ARINC, and only by IFR certified, panel-mount GPS units. Normal GPS signals can be received via serial or ARINC.

Because a VOR or ILS is a single signal representing one point you can fly to, there's no point in NAV/ILS steering. AP's just fly the CDI and try and center it.

The Dynon AP will fly a VOR or Localizer from a serial signal (SL-30) or any radio the HS34 can interface with (including the 430). It will fly to a GPS waypoint over serial from any GPS, or can utilize GPS steering commands if the HS34 is installed and hooked to a compatible GPS. I do not believe any other competitor will fly a VOR or Localizer off of a serial signal. They require a different kind of connection.
 
dynonsupport said:
GPS steering is only output over ARINC, and only by IFR certified, panel-mount GPS units. Normal GPS signals can be received via serial or ARINC.
Click to expand...

To clarify, there is a GPS series that does output GPSS over serial and that is the Apollo GX series of units. Obsolete and out of production but the later firmware models do have this feature.

There are some reports that Apollo did not do a good job with scaling the output and that this causes strange things when driving an AP from this signal. Since it is an obsolete model Garmin won't fix it.

TT has a few AP's that support this weird version of GPSS that Apollo created. I think I remember reading that Trio's new AP supports it as well.
 
Brantel said:
There are some reports that Apollo did not do a good job with scaling the output and that this causes strange things when driving an AP from this signal.
Click to expand...
There is no scaling problem with the Apollo GPSS signal that I'm aware of. You're probably thinking of the problem with scaling in the "G" (cross-track error) sentence in the Apollo "Moving Map" stream.
TT has a few AP's that support this weird version of GPSS that Apollo created. I think I remember reading that Trio's new AP supports it as well.
Click to expand...
Yes, we use our Trio Pro Pilot driven by the Apollo GX60's GPSS in our RV-6 and it works very well.

A little more detail here: http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showpost.php?p=294377&postcount=27

--Paul
 
Thanks Paul,

I knew there was a scaling issue somewhere...Cool so the GPSS out of the GX works fine.....At least with the TRIO.

Now if one could talk all the EFIS makers into supporting this strange one of a kind format for driving their EHSI's that would be really good.

Garage Guy said:
There is no scaling problem with the Apollo GPSS signal that I'm aware of. You're probably thinking of the problem with scaling in the "G" (cross-track error) sentence in the Apollo "Moving Map" stream.

Yes, we use our Trio Pro Pilot driven by the Apollo GX60's GPSS in our RV-6 and it works very well.

A little more detail here: http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showpost.php?p=294377&postcount=27

--Paul
Click to expand...
 
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With no AP

I'm not planning to use an autopilot, but I'd like to be able to get a CDI presentation from all 3. The HS34 should be able to do all of that, right?
 
In the case of the 430/430W yes the HS34 does a great job integrating it all together. That is really what they made it for they tell us.
 
dynonsupport said:
The Dynon AP will fly a VOR or Localizer from a serial signal (SL-30) or any radio the HS34 can interface with (including the 430). It will fly to a GPS waypoint over serial from any GPS, or can utilize GPS steering commands if the HS34 is installed and hooked to a compatible GPS. I do not believe any other competitor will fly a VOR or Localizer off of a serial signal. They require a different kind of connection.
Click to expand...

That's a great feature Dynon! Maybe we can arm-twist your competitors to emulate this feature in a software upgrade?

:D
 
The HS34 will let you display "everything" from the 430/530/430W/530W

It's six wires between the HS34 and the 430, all ARINC-429.

With this connection, the HSI can display a GPS CDI, a GPS vertical path (GPS Glideslope), VOR CDI, Localizer CDI, and ILS Glideslope. The GPS CDI works in holds and other procedures, and auto-scales for enroute, terminal, and approach phases.

These horizontal and vertical CDI's can be displayed on an HSI or as an overlay to the artificial horizon.
 
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breister said:
Just a point of clarification: Most of the TT autopilots do NOT accept VOR/ILS steering even if it is in ARINC format. The Sorcerer does, and I believe one other does.
Click to expand...


Just a point of clarification to clarify your point of clarification. Most of the TT autopilots DO accept ARINC steering commands. The Sorcerer, AP-100, DFC series, RV-10AP, Digiflight II series. The only ones that Don't are the Pictorial/Digitrak and the ADI pilot series.

Just trying to keep the mis-information to a minumum.

Cheers,
Stein
 
Stein, that post was in reference to VOR and ILS commands over ARINC. I do not believe you are correct that any of the TT units will fly a VOR or Localizer with only an ARINC connection. Isn't it only the sorcerer and AP100 that will fly VOR/ILS, and then only with an analog connection?

Flying a VOR or ILS over a serial connection from an SL-30 was what Breister was suggesting our competitors do.
 
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dynonsupport said:
Stein, that post was in reference to VOR and ILS commands over ARINC. I do not believe you are correct that any of the TT units will fly a VOR or Localizer with only an ARINC connection. Isn't it only the sorcerer and AP100 that will fly VOR/ILS, and then only with an analog connection?

Flying a VOR or ILS over a serial connection from an SL-30 was what Breister was suggesting our competitors do.
Click to expand...

Ah-Ha! (I see says the blind man). You are correct.

That being said, put the aformentioned TT or Trio units with an EFIS and it all works wonderfully. Seems everyone needs an EFIS coupled with the AP's to take full advantage of many functions available. With those AP's, no EFIS - then no NAV serial function - same with Dynon, TruTrak, Trio or BMA.

Cheers,
Stein
 
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Brantel said:
I knew there was a scaling issue somewhere...Cool so the GPSS out of the GX works fine.....At least with the TRIO. Now if one could talk all the EFIS makers into supporting this strange one of a kind format for driving their EHSI's that would be really good.
Click to expand...

IIRC Lucas posted something a while back about the TruTrak engineers not wanting to do the Apollo GPSS because the data rate is low. It is only 1Hz, and the 430's ARINC GPSS is 10 or 20 times that. But the Pro Pilot shows it certainly can be done. And talking to the Trio people, it actually wasn't hard to do. Decoding the stream at the front end is simple, and they were able to reuse essentially all their ARINC back end command code with very little additional filtering.

--Paul
 
SteinAir said:
Just a point of clarification to clarify your point of clarification. Most of the TT autopilots DO accept ARINC steering commands. The Sorcerer, AP-100, DFC series, RV-10AP, Digiflight II series. The only ones that Don't are the Pictorial/Digitrak and the ADI pilot series.
Click to expand...

I am very curious about this... I'm wiring up the panel for my friend's RV-8 with Dynon D100 & D120, HS34, GNS-430 and a TruTrack DigiFlight II (which was already purchased before Dynon came out with their autopilot or else he'd probably gone with an all-Dynon system).

Looking thru the install manuals, I noticed that the suggested TruTrak Digiflight II interface to a Garmin 430 wants GPS serial plus ARINC both connected at the same time.

If the Digiflight II can accept either GPS steering via ARINC or possibly VOR/ILS input via ARINC, then can't I just put a simple DPDT toggle switch on the Digiflight II's ARINC-A and ARINC-B inputs and allow the pilot to select either the 430's GPS or VOR/ILS ARINC outputs to drive the autopilot?

If so, then would I also need to drop the GPS rs-232 serial line from feeding the autopilot when VOR/ILS ARINC is selected, perhaps with a 3PDT toggle switch?


EDIT: This may be a big "nevermind".... I just noticed that the TT autopilot that I've got sitting in front of me is only the plain Digiflight II flat pack version, not the -G, -VS, -VSG or -VSGV advanced versions. That means it probably doesn't even have its firmware programmed to read ARINC data inputs. I may talk with the RV8's owner/builder tomorrow and ask him if he's interested in upgrading to one of the more advanced Digiflight II versions.


ANOTHER EDIT: After doing a little more reading on TT's website, it looks like we'd have to completely trade up the Digiflight II with an AP-100 or their "Sorcerer" model to get the a/p to fully be able to track an ILS. Would maybe one of the DF-II versions still be able to laterally track a VOR via ARINC signals?
 
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Pual,

TT already has several AP's that will use this signal. That is if there manuals are correct. Several of them show (not the ADI series) this as a possible source in the books.

Garage Guy said:
IIRC Lucas posted something a while back about the TruTrak engineers not wanting to do the Apollo GPSS because the data rate is low. It is only 1Hz, and the 430's ARINC GPSS is 10 or 20 times that. But the Pro Pilot shows it certainly can be done. And talking to the Trio people, it actually wasn't hard to do. Decoding the stream at the front end is simple, and they were able to reuse essentially all their ARINC back end command code with very little additional filtering.

--Paul
Click to expand...
 
Neal@F14 said:
ANOTHER EDIT: After doing a little more reading on TT's website, it looks like we'd have to completely trade up the Digiflight II with an AP-100 or their "Sorcerer" model to get the a/p to fully be able to track an ILS. Would maybe one of the DF-II versions still be able to laterally track a VOR via ARINC signals?
Click to expand...

Nope, Got to move up to the AP-100 or Sorcerer to get any kind of "VOR/LOC/GS" tracking.

This is one major advantage with the Dynon AP. (If they would fully implement it by still making the AP76!) :D Currently the Dynon AP can track a VOR & LOC but no GS.

Other lower priced (lower than the AP-100 and Sorcerer) AP's that support GPSS & GPSV over ARINC can be connected to EFIS's (AFS, GRT, MGL) that manipulate the data and convert it to GPSS & GPSV data and fake the AP into thinking it is following a GPS but it is really following a NAV receivers data that has been transformed into something the AP can understand.
 
Neal@F14 said:
I am very curious about this... I'm wiring up the panel for my friend's RV-8 with Dynon D100 & D120, HS34, GNS-430 and a TruTrack DigiFlight II (which was already purchased before Dynon came out with their autopilot or else he'd probably gone with an all-Dynon system).

Looking thru the install manuals, I noticed that the suggested TruTrak Digiflight II interface to a Garmin 430 wants GPS serial plus ARINC both connected at the same time.

If the Digiflight II can accept either GPS steering via ARINC or possibly VOR/ILS input via ARINC, then can't I just put a simple DPDT toggle switch on the Digiflight II's ARINC-A and ARINC-B inputs and allow the pilot to select either the 430's GPS or VOR/ILS ARINC outputs to drive the autopilot?

If so, then would I also need to drop the GPS rs-232 serial line from feeding the autopilot when VOR/ILS ARINC is selected, perhaps with a 3PDT toggle switch?


EDIT: This may be a big "nevermind".... I just noticed that the TT autopilot that I've got sitting in front of me is only the plain Digiflight II flat pack version, not the -G, -VS, -VSG or -VSGV advanced versions. That means it probably doesn't even have its firmware programmed to read ARINC data inputs. I may talk with the RV8's owner/builder tomorrow and ask him if he's interested in upgrading to one of the more advanced Digiflight II versions.


ANOTHER EDIT: After doing a little more reading on TT's website, it looks like we'd have to completely trade up the Digiflight II with an AP-100 or their "Sorcerer" model to get the a/p to fully be able to track an ILS. Would maybe one of the DF-II versions still be able to laterally track a VOR via ARINC signals?
Click to expand...

If you get that DII upgraded to the VSGV and hook up both the ARINC's and Serial it'll fly a WAAS GPS approach like it's on rails. If you fly a coupled WAAS approach, you'll soon notice how sloppy the old VOR/ILS's signals actually are. If you shoot an ILS, load up the WAAS approach it'll fly you right down to the runway after flying the entire procedure. Now that GPS approaches have surpassed ILS approaches (and are growing a multiples of ratios in comparision), it makes perfect sense to take advantage of that functionality.

Cheers,
Stein
 
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