Gsuit

Gsuit

Well Known Member
Do you know this aircraft?

I'm looking for the person who belongs to this aircraft. I grabbed this pic long ago, and would like to talk to whomever will claim it concerning their dual throttle setup. You can see the left throttle just inboard of the black air vent on the left side of the panel.

-OR-

If you have a -6 or -7 and have dual throttles, I'd like to talk to you as well. Specifically I'm curious how you would / did link up the two throttle cables. Did you build some sort of 'Y', or did you attach both to the same point on the engine?

I appreciate any and all input.

http://img250.imageshack.us/my.php?image=rv6interiorna2.jpg
 
Work in progress

Hi,

We have gone down the route of dual controls in our 7A. Still in the process of refining the solution, but basically dual push/pull cables all the way to the actuating arms on the engine.

New brackets for the prop and throttle controls have been made / modified. Getting the angles / alignments can be tricky, require multiple mock ups / attempts.

Some photos:

Throttle:

Web_Img_9190.jpg
Web_Img_5261.jpg


Prop:

Web_Img_5206.jpg
Web_Img_5203.jpg


The primary concern at the moment it the friction from the dual cables (and the number of bends / arcs needed) but I think it will work. Dad is currently working on replacement SS quadrant arms which will help with the leverage a little. Give us a week or so and I should have a better idea if this is going to all come together.

This isn't original idea stuff - I've seen a number of options, I quite like the builder mod example linked above with the center quad and a 'secondary' throttle on the LHS.

I'll try and get a set of photos of all the ends over the next few days - any specific questions let me know.

Regards,

Carl
 
Dual controls

Update - in situ images:

Web_Img_9380.jpg
Web_Img_9381.jpg

Web_Img_9384.jpg
Web_Img_9385.jpg


Seems to work well, leverage is the key, if I was doing it again I might put the quadrants 1/2" lower. Friction will probably only be on P1 side.

HTH,

Carl
 
You can buy "Y" cables, but they are usually setup for the other way, one control moving two arms..
 
I am in the planning stages of my project, but after looking over the designs (I'm building a -7), I really think the left hand throttle quadrant is the best layout for my taste. The question is, is it possible to integrate two quadrants?

Perhaps, one on the far left, and one in the center, or one on the far left, and one on the far right? I'd imagine it's either not possible, or far too difficult/unreliable in practice (given the importance of this control unit), but I figured I would ask if anyone has given it a shot.

If you haven't seen what I'm talking about, check out the photo below, from Dan's RV-7. (Dan, sorry about jacking your graphic. Let me know if you'd like me to pull it, or host it elsewhere.)

20060214_quadrant_installed1.jpg


Thanks, guys.
Mike
 
I've been giving this some thought lately, too. With the help of another local builder, we've been throwing around the idea of mounting the throttle at the forward end of the armrest (just behind the center section's upright), or somehow mount it to the center section's upright cover. The latter idea would be harder to implement with limited space for the lever.

I don't like the look of the throttle being on the panel...just my personal preference. I think implementing the throttle in a lower position where your arm naturally sits is the ideal place to put it.

As for dual-controls...I think this is easily accomplished with the dual-throttle mixer, available from ACS for $50. You could put in a right-hand throttle of the same fashion on the other side of the cockpit for the passenger.
 
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dual nothing

my wife said. "Flying is your thing, I don't need controls on my side." So throttle goes wherever I want it.....on my side. No right side brakes either, in fact I'm building a remote mount for the passenger stick, as it will be out most of the time. she thinks the stick boot should be made out of wetsuit material as that would make a good wine cooler holder. :D
 
I don't know why so many of you are intimidated by left hand stick/right hand throttle. It is not that difficult to fly with your left hand, after all you fly a regular GA airplane with the left hand. Beside figuring out how to put the engine controls in you will have to change hands any time you want to change a radio freq or transponder etc. I fly a couple of 6s and fly both right seat with the owners and left seat all other times and it just doesn't make any difference. I also fly a UTVA 66 with left throttle right stick and find it a PIA whenever I need to reach for something on the panel. Don
 
yakdriver said:
I don't know why so many of you are intimidated by left hand stick/right hand throttle. It is not that difficult to fly with your left hand, after all you fly a regular GA airplane with the left hand. Beside figuring out how to put the engine controls in you will have to change hands any time you want to change a radio freq or transponder etc. I fly a couple of 6s and fly both right seat with the owners and left seat all other times and it just doesn't make any difference. I also fly a UTVA 66 with left throttle right stick and find it a PIA whenever I need to reach for something on the panel. Don
Click to expand...

Hi Don, I'm not intimidated by the thought of a right-sided throttle at all...but I like the idea of not having to reach for the throttle since it would rest nicely under my left hand. If it weren't important for ergonomics, military aircraft wouldn't have throttles conveniently placed under the pilots left hand...food for thought, I suppose. ;)

I do wonder about the effects of having to switch hands to change the comm frequency or whatever, though...that's a valid point. But in retrospect, I do recall there being a bunch of switches, knobs, controls, pushbuttons, etc. on the right-side of the cockpit of the F/A-18. I'm sure the pilots had to switch hands to reach those.
 
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If it weren't important for ergonomics, military aircraft wouldn't have throttles conveniently placed under the pilots left hand...food for thought, I suppose.
Click to expand...

Well, but the side by side military usually don't have left hand or dual throttles (B-52, C-17.....) :rolleyes:
 
yakdriver said:
I don't know why so many of you are intimidated by left hand stick/right hand throttle. It is not that difficult to fly with your left hand, after all you fly a regular GA airplane with the left hand. Beside figuring out how to put the engine controls in you will have to change hands any time you want to change a radio freq or transponder etc. I fly a couple of 6s and fly both right seat with the owners and left seat all other times and it just doesn't make any difference. I also fly a UTVA 66 with left throttle right stick and find it a PIA whenever I need to reach for something on the panel. Don
Click to expand...

I think this is valid, although I don't think it's an intimidation issue. As lostpilot said, it's an ergonomics issue. It definitely could be a pain in the butt to have to change frequencies, etc. I suppose I'll just have to go fly a few of them. I like the look of a throttle quadrant mounted in a makeshift center console, but when I think of flying the **** thing, it feels like the stick should be in my right hand. :confused:

Any of you with left-side throttle quadrants in side-by-sides care to post a video, or thoughts on the radio frequency, transponder, changes with the stick in the right hand?

Mike
 
Talking two different animals here. Two place tandem almost always set up right stick. Although there are switches ect. on the right side of the airplane even most of those can be reached with the left hand. On the side by side the reach gets longer and you have the added complexity and weight of a dual throttle set up. The only tandem airplane I have flown with a left hand throttle was a 1929 Lincoln PT and it had a throttle on both sides Don
 
pgroell said:
Well, but the side by side military usually don't have left hand or dual throttles (B-52, C-17.....)
Click to expand...

Err, yeah...I was referring to the non-gigantic variety, like the S-3 Viking or the EA-6B. The larger aircraft you mention aren't exactly "agile" aircraft with the need for HOTAS. :rolleyes:
 
yakdriver said:
Talking two different animals here. Two place tandem almost always set up right stick. Although there are switches ect. on the right side of the airplane even most of those can be reached with the left hand. On the side by side the reach gets longer and you have the added complexity and weight of a dual throttle set up. The only tandem airplane I have flown with a left hand throttle was a 1929 Lincoln PT and it had a throttle on both sides Don
Click to expand...

The F-111 had dual trottles, one set on the left and one set on the center console between the seats.

-John
 
Mike, I've got dual throttles in my 6. What I did was put the regular center throttle cable in but routed the cable to the left side. From the left throttle quadrant I ran out to the engine. The quadrant on the left was modified so the throttle lever ran down past the pivot the same length as above the pivot. The center cable pulls the lever from the bottom. The top of the lever goes to the engine. I only have dual throttle. The mixture I use from the center. It works well. I have two friction knobs but use only the one on the left. Getting the throttle to max out properly was a little tricky. I had to play with the lengths of the cables but once that's done the rest was eazy.
 
Well, I actually do have experience with a side-by-side with a left-hand throttle setup. I owned a PulsarXP for 3 years (I just sold it to buy my engine & avionics). The stick was in the right hand, the throttle was in the left. I loved it...which is a big reason I want that setup for my RV.

It was very easy to fly that way for me...although I did have to switch hands to change radio freq's. I didn't mind, as it wasn't that big a deal. Actually, switching hands wouldn't be a problem in the RV since the stick is between your legs (ahem)...the Pulsar had the stick on the right, so switching hands was somewhat cumbersome.

I drive with my left hand on the steering wheel. Which is probably why I fly yoke-equipped airplanes with my left hand. With regards to a stick, I prefer using my right hand.
 
I learned to DRIVE airplanes in a C-150; I learned to FLY them in a J-3, and later a Stearman. Both setups seem natural, ie. yoke in the left hand, stick in the right. The throttle gets which ever one that's left over.

I've had a Cessna 170 for 25 years that I fly from the left seat (left hand yoke, right hand throttle). I've flown other Cessna's from the right seat, and it feels a bit awkward with the yoke in my right hand. However, the one time I've flown a side-by-side stick (RV-6) from the left seat, my right hand, not conciously commanded by me, kept finding its way to the stick, and the left kept groping for the non-existent throttle on the left. I'm sure I could eventually get used to a right-hand throttle in a stick-controlled airplane, but the opposite seems more natural.

As far as changing hands to manipulate radio's, etc. , my 170 was designed prior to the center-stack concept, so there are radios on the left and right side of the panel. It's no big deal to swap hands long enough to tune a radio. Besides, any RV I build will most likely have an autopilot. If I ever get around to building a -7 or -10, my first choice would be a left-hand throttle quadrant.
 
The opinions about flying left/right hand on throttle are certainly interesting...

But, the original question was about putting two quadrants in. While people have certainly done it, please keep in mind the possible failure modes of these designs. One would really prefer not having a jammed throttle.... A mechanism/cable/linkage to have two throttles in a side by side will involve many more failure possibilities than a simple push/pull cable.
 
Not a big deal

This has been hashed over in the past. I can tell you I was concerned about flying the stick with the left hand. I have over 2200 hours of helicopter time and I thought it be tough to adapt.

The fears were unfounded. After an hour or so with Mike Seager during my transition training, I felt right at home. There are no issues with switching between the RV and a helicopter. Same with going between a 6/7 and a tandem.

Unless you are really bent on this idea, save the time, money and headaches and build it as designed. You adapt fine.
 
RV7Guy said:
This has been hashed over in the past. I can tell you I was concerned about flying the stick with the left hand. I have over 2200 hours of helicopter time and I thought it be tough to adapt.

The fears were unfounded. After an hour or so with Mike Seager during my transition training, I felt right at home. There are no issues with switching between the RV and a helicopter. Same with going between a 6/7 and a tandem.

Unless you are really bent on this idea, save the time, money and headaches and build it as designed. You adapt fine.
Click to expand...

I agree. The simpler you keep this, the faster you will be flying your new airplane. If you want controls on the left, sit on the right. ;)
It is your airplane however. Sorry for not answering your question, but I abandon the idea quickly when I though about doing it. No regrets.
 
Just like you couldn't pay me to install a slider on my -7, you couldn't pay me to put center-mounted engine controls in my -7.

Some of us just have to have it our way, I guess.

If you do go with a repeater, my 2 cents would be only bother with the throttle. Do your passengers really need to control prop & mixture?
 
Don't forget about trim and flaps!

If you have them on the stick, no issue, but if not, make sure you locate them so they flow with your throttle. You want them to flow best when you are busy in the pattern and probably do not want to be changing hands to make adjustments.
I have manual trim so the center mount throttle worked best for me. However, i also have a slider as I prefer to have the rain drip on my lap instead of on my feet ;) (just having a little fun Dan, with you, not at you.)
 
dan said:
Do your passengers really need to control prop & mixture?
Click to expand...

Yes, several are pilots and they get brakes too!

My real preference is military tandem style with right stick & left hand throttle quardrant. But my "six" side by side seemed a little crunched when I seriously thought about putting a quadrant on the left.

So I flew some Diamond Aircraft side by sides around for awhile with the stick between the legs like an RV. It was simple to get use to, so I bagged the whole idea.

L.Adamson --- RV6A
 
dan said:
Just like you couldn't pay me to install a slider on my -7, you couldn't pay me to put center-mounted engine controls in my -7.

Some of us just have to have it our way, I guess.

If you do go with a repeater, my 2 cents would be only bother with the throttle. Do your passengers really need to control prop & mixture?
Click to expand...

Dan, care to share your radio frequency change/transponder/etc routine? I assume you just swap hands, but who knows.

Mike
 
DevDad said:
Dan, care to share your radio frequency change/transponder/etc routine? I assume you just swap hands, but who knows.

Mike
Click to expand...

Pre-load the freqs and then just click the flip-flop button on the stick when the time comes.

But yeah, when I do need to twiddle the radios I swap hands.
 
CRM

DevDad said:
Dan, care to share your radio frequency change/transponder/etc routine? I assume you just swap hands, but who knows.

Mike
Click to expand...

The conventions of Cockpit Resourse Management would say if you want to fly with your right hand sit on the right side. This way there is no hand swapping. I think that is why the military helicopters are all right seat PIC.

Most of my heli time is in the MD500 series. That is left seat PIC. I can tell you it is a PITA to deal with the radios. Imagine a police pursuit, at night, through several juridictions and airspace changes. The observer handles the police stuff but the pilot will often precontact a potential police agency that could be affected. Lots going on. The Jet Ranger and AS350 are much easier on CRM.

Keep it simple and always keep in mind the potential for resale.
 
I'm setting my 7 up with a centre mounted throttle quadrant (Vans Rv-8 quadrant) in a custom centre console. My panel is based around dual GRT EFIS screens (L & R side) with AVMAP GPS and com/audio panel in centre. I have back up guages going on either side of the GPS in centre. The panel is essentially completely symmetrical in layout.

With dual brakes I will be able to fly from RHS or LHS depending on preference.

Having flown many hours in gliders and ultralights as well as aerobatics I simply enjoy the more natural feel and co-ordination of stick right hand and throttle left hand so I am happy to jump in the right seat.

Before someone comments it's got nothing to do with the fact that I am an Aussie and we drive our cars from the right seat on the left hand side of the road!!!

All my training was done in C-172's and I am more than comfortable flying left seat, I just prefer to hold a joystick in my right hand particularly if flying aeros.

If you set up your panel in a symmetrical layout (Dual screen EFIS makes this decision easier) you get the best of both worlds.

My panel layout has my back-up ASI, ALT and G-meter on the right hand side of the centred GPS for convenience when flying right seat aeros (simpler reference during aeros than referring to EFIS). On the LHS of the centred GPS are back-up AH, VSI and compass which make for easy reference if flying LHS when cruising. Everything is easy to read from either side.

Bonus of this set-up as well is your instructor for transition training can happily sit in the Left seat!

Worth considering if you are sitting on the fence over the issue.

Food for thought....
 
KISS principle!!

I talked to one other chapter member who has installed a dual throttle in his -7 because he claimed he was more comfortable using the throttle with his left hand.
I guess while comfort and safety is the prime concern when flying, I suggested to him, as previously mentioned on this topic, that a more complicated throttle mechanism could also be a problem at the wrong time.
I've never even thought of this topic as a problem until I heard that builders were putting in dual throttles.
When I had my Mooney, I would fly it, and my single place aerobatic One Design with left hand throttle, sometimes in the same day, and never even thought about which hand I was flying it with.
As also mentioned previously, after about an hour of flying, you should be used to opposite control hands. I believe you should be as flexible in the cockpit as you can be to help when the un-expected happens!!
Jack
ATP
RV9A
 
Dual throttles

Anybody ever done dual throttles on a side-by-side model? One of our pilots would like a left-hand throttle on the pilot's side on a -9. Would like to retain the center set up as well.

Using a push-pull non-vernier type.
 
I did this in my Dragonfly, but it was using dual quadrants, and mounted on each sidewall.

To make it work in an RV, one push/pull on the side, and a quadrant in the center could be made to work fairly easily, I think. You would have to extend the throttle arm below the pivot, and hook up the slave unit there, this reverses the motion, so the two throttles can move in the same direction. Slave throttle can then be routed from under the panel, and be somewhat out of the way.

Big issue here, as I see it at least, is to maintain continuous control from either unit, regardless of the position of the other throttle. I dont think having the two units act independently of each other is a good thing.

The way I did it in the Dragonfly was to drive one throttle lever with the other, and only one of them hooked to the carb.

Interesting problem, but in the long run, not too sure it is a wise thing to do
 
A couple of RV's here in the UK are set up to fly from the right hand seat - as are all our airforce's piston primary trainers (Grob 115's). The Pilot flies left-hand throttle, right hand stick - and the passenger has access to all the controls. No additional complexity.

Dave
 
same here..

I've built the -7 so the right seat is pilot seat and I'm very happy with it.

The passengers are happy too, because many of them have a pilot licence and can have the stick in their left hand as they're used to.

Works for all and built on the KISS-principle..
 
I've Got Dual Throttles

You can see it on my site.

http://www.richardfazio.name/

Go to RV-6 Finished and on the right side of the thumbnails you'll see the cockpit shots. It basically the same as Mike S. described in his dragonfly. The center throttle cable wraps around to the left throttle and actuates it from the bottom of the hinge point. Then from above the hinge point the left throttle goes out to the carb. I only did the throttle. the mixture and carb heat are only in the center. It works very well. An advantage also is that with the dual cables there is enough friction that I've never used the friction locks on either throttle. It just stays where ever I put it. We didn't want to fly with our left hand on the stick and right on the throttle.
 
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Hi,

Yep - been there, done that. Our 7A has dual throttle quadrants. Basically each side has it's own push/pull cable all the way through to the controlling arm on the engine. I would argue the mixture doesn't need to be duplicated and maybe even the pitch (RPM) control, just throttle. ( But that is after flying for 100+ hrs and finding RPM is set to 2350 at 800 AGL and then left alone most flights. )

If I was doing it again I would seriously consider LHS throttle for the P1 position and central set of push / pull (or quadrant) for mixture, throttle, pitch.

Regards,

Carl (still lurking around :) )
 
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