cjensen

cjensen

Well Known Member
Dual brakes...why???

I just got to thinking about this today, and I'm wondering why I chose to put in dual brakes. I have the dual brake system, but is it really worth putting in?

Those of you with the brakes on one side...do you wish you had the dual set up?

Those with both...do you ever need or use the other side?

I can't see myself ever letting someone not proficient enough in RV taildraggers (that includes me right now...) take off and land this thing from the right side, and if for some reason I'm on the right, someone better than me will be in the left seat.

Just wondering if it's worth the weight??? :confused:

If not, I may have a set of brakes for sale! :D
 
Chad, I'm with you. Keep it simple & light. Adding brakes later is not a huge deal...and a future owner who feels it's absolutely necessary would hopefully see that as a great way to "get to know" working on their new airplane.
 
Since my wife & I both fly and she flies from the right seat, it works for us. I also fly from the right seat occasionally when giving a demo ride.
 
Chad-
1. Are you EVER going to have an instructor in the plane with you? Will an instructor agree to fly in a plane that has no brakes for the instructor to use, ESPECIALLY a taildragger?
2. Are you EVER going to use this plane to teach your daughter how to fly? Do you want to have access to brakes in this case?
I'm definitely an advocate of KISS, but had absolutely no questions about going ahead and putting dual brakes in. At the same time, they wouldn't be that hard to retrofit later... but it would be a pain.
Just my .02.
 
I'm with Mel. Ellen flies and it would be nice to have dual brakes because of that. It will also be nice if she's in the left seat and we end up with a stiff crosswind, or something like that....I can back her up a bit since I have a lot more TD time than she does.

If Ellen didn't fly, I wouldn't bother with the dual brakes at all. In fact, we may just decide not to install them anyhow.
 
No brakes for me....

My primary right seat-er (wife) wants to be treated like an airline passenger. No stick, no brakes, no extra buttons in front of her. If it were easy to do I would think about removing the rudder peddles. :eek:

When I take anyone else for a ride, that wants to fly the plane I let them have the controls, but I do the landing.
No one else will be flying from the right seat. I am not an instructor so won't be giving real flight lessons in my plane.
If my CFI does not want to fly from the right without brakes, I'll get a new CFI. :cool:

Kent
 
In the unplanned and unexpected event I or some other person on the left seat become incapacitated (sudden medical problem, birdstrike, etc.), I want the person in the right (or back for a 4 or 8) to be able to have every opportunity to land the plane. That is why I teach my non-pilot wife the basics of aircraft control and what the various critical knobs, buttons and levers are. We talk all the time about system redundancies...

I won't sacrifice complete dual controls (stick/rudder/throttle) for a couple pounds or a knot of speed. Just my personal feelings. YMMD. :)
 
kentb said:
My primary right seat-er (wife) wants to be treated like an airline passenger. No stick, no brakes, no extra buttons in front of her. If it were easy to do I would think about removing the rudder peddles. :eek:

When I take anyone else for a ride, that wants to fly the plane I let them have the controls, but I do the landing.
No one else will be flying from the right seat. I am not an instructor so won't be giving real flight lessons in my plane.
If my CFI does not want to fly from the right without brakes, I'll get a new CFI. :cool:

Kent
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This is pretty much exactly how I feel about it. My wife has NO desire to learn to fly. She LOVES riding with me, but doesn't want to touch the controls.

I'll be more than happy to let someone fly it from the right seat, but not takeoff and land. If it's gonna ground loop, I'll be responsible for it.

I will not do any training in my airplane (other than solo practice), so I won't need a CFI that wants brakes. My training will come in someone elses airplane that uses it for training. BFR's are done at work.

I'm also not an instructor (the one rating I don't have, and don't want), and I have no kids (don't plan on any either), so I'm leaning more and more towards the one side is enough for me direction.

:)
 
Probably getting within a year of flying our plane. After the 40 hours are flown off my wife wants to take "pitch hitter" lessons so she can land the plane if something happens to me. Since I turned 60 a few months ago I think it is a good idea. Hopefully she will continue on to get her license. Pretty cool to have a wife that wants to learn to fly. Dual controls are a necessity for my flight requirements. Build the plane to fit your requirements and have fun.

Steve Eberhart
RV-7A, picking up a 0 time O-360-A1A tomorrow
 
Resale

Most spam cans that people train in have dual brakes and some day you will want to sell the plane. Dual brakes are an item for which many pilots look. The weight penalty is minor. The RV pilot that I fly with ONLY flies from the right seat. In fact he designed his RV for the PIC to fly in the right seat. To him and to a few others I have met, think that it is more natural to fly from the right (right handed thing I suppose). If you have already purchased them you will loose nothing by installing them IMO. I can envision more times when you may say: "I wish I had installed them :( " than I can seeing you think "I wish I hadn't installed them. :confused: " The bottom line, though, is that the plane is built by you and only you need to be happy.
 
gvgoff99 said:
Most spam cans that people train in have dual brakes and some day you will want to sell the plane. Dual brakes are an item for which many pilots look. The weight penalty is minor. The RV pilot that I fly with ONLY flies from the right seat. In fact he designed his RV for the PIC to fly in the right seat. To him and to a few others I have met, think that it is more natural to fly from the right (right handed thing I suppose). If you have already purchased them you will loose nothing by installing them IMO. I can envision more times when you may say: "I wish I had installed them :( " than I can seeing you think "I wish I hadn't installed them. :confused: " The bottom line, though, is that the plane is built by you and only you need to be happy.
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I don't buy the resale value comment. One can buy a second set for a little more than $200 and install them easily, and as Dan said they'd get to know a new-to-them airplane better. I know everyone says this, but I'm not building it to sell it. Unforseen financial troubles would be the only reason I could see for selling it. I never say never, but I don't PLAN to sell it. No kids and not enough money to build a 10...

The weight penalty is minor. But it is weight. A couple pounds here, a couple pounds there...add up.

I suppose if I were ONLY going to fly from the right side, I'd install them only on the right. ;)

The main things I'm thinking of here are one LESS thing to work on later and a few LESS pounds to worry about now.

I'm not trying to argue at all, just responding...

:)
 
What's the harm

Here's the way I look at it, you put them in and may not need them. But if you do, they are there. You don't put them in, at some point you might want/need them and they aren't there. Don't say you won't have anyone that might need them. What if you did some recurrent training in your plane? The few hours of time to install is not a huge deal.

The little bit of weight is a non issue.

If you are still thinking of a Subaru then leave them out since you will need to save the weight :eek: Sorry, saw the chance for a shot and took it.
 
To brake or not....

I am planning to put "right" side brake controls in at some point in the future but not right now. I'll put that money into something that will help me get it in the air.

My wife has shown an interest in the "Pinch Hitter" course to learn what to do should something happen to me. She'll need the brakes.
 
cjensen said:
I just got to thinking about this today, and I'm wondering why I chose to put in dual brakes. I have the dual brake system, but is it really worth putting in?......Just wondering if it's worth the weight???....:D
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Chad,

The decision should be a matter of anticipating the way in which your plane will eventually be flown but not to be underestimated is the sometimes strong urge to install an option simply because you can. My 6A has been flying for a couple of years now and the brakes on the right side have never been used. Actions speak louder than words. The only time I am aware of its presence in when I notice an occasional spot of brake fluid on the passenger floor. I knew from the get-go I would omit the extra weight and complexity of a dual brake option for the -8 and Van made it an even easier decision because rear seat brakes are not even available for the popular tandem design.
 
Rick6a said:
...not to be underestimated is the sometimes strong urge to install an option simply because you can.
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Well said! Best comment I've read all day...
 
Well, in my case, it's none of the above. I installed the dual brake because I want to give my passenger as many chances for survival if I should keel over and die. Being able to stop the plane if she (and I'm assuming this was going to be my wife) were able to get talked down (she's taking a pinch-hitter course, bless her heart) seemed like it was consistent with all of the other things we put in these planes for maximum survival opportunity.

I'm not saying this is what anyone else should do. But for me, it wasn't really an option. I'll probably save weight and money by not putting fancy non-flying stuff in the panel.
 
Why I have dual brakes.

Chad, my wife sounds like yours. She'd rather have a stick in the eye than touch the controls. But, I have dual brakes. Why? The sole reason is someday I might build another RV, and if I do it will be a RV-4 Fastback - which means I need to know how to fly with the stick in my right hand. About two years ago I started flying from the right seat occasionally, and having a full set of controls over there makes practicing for the -4 that much easier.

I also occasionally fly Danny's -8 Beautiful Doll. I prep for it with a little time in the right seat of my -6. Those dual brakes are priceless in this regard.

You wouldn't think switching hands would be that big a deal, but landing on 52F's narrow runway from the other seat really is an attention getter for me.

If I had to do it again I'd put them in. They only took about 20 minutes to install, don't add much weight and would be much more of a hassle to install once flying.

b,
d
 
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Rick6a said:
<snip>but not to be underestimated is the sometimes strong urge to install an option simply because you can.
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...and THAT is the reason I bought them. I don't NEED them, but it sounded like an easy option to install, and I could do it. Now I'm asking why.

I think all of these posts have been great info. This airplane is for me, myself, and I...and anyone qualified can sit in the seat with the brakes.

Everybody keeps saying that they don't add MUCH weight, but they DO add weight. A leak here, a leak there on a system that never gets used...hmmm.

Thanks for all posts everyone! :D
 
I got them in mine.

Why did I put them in?
10 years ago, I only had 50 hours tailwheel time. There were not many RVs with dual brakes to train in. I wanted them in case I needed training and also to let local freinds get some training with me in the right seat.

Two pilots have had RV transition training in the left seat of my airplane. About 4 others have flown it in the left seat with me in the right.

Two in ten years and almost 2,000 hours does not sound like much use.

IMHO, I would only install them if I wanted training or wanted someone else using my airplane for training.

The dual brakes are kind of like me wanting a nose wheel or tail wheel on my next airplane. Also do I want someone else flying my airplane as primary pilot for transition training with me in the secondary seat?

I feel safe landing the airplane without brakes but would want them for meneuving on the ground between hangars and other airplanes with someone else in the primary seat.

Would I do it again? Not sure. Depends on what kind of mood I am in when it is time to buy and install.
 
Well, here's how it's gone for me. I put them in when building my RV-6. After 8 years and 600 hours in the air, including 4 BFR's in the plane, and an intensive 3-day IFR refresher course the right side brakes had never been used! Then one of the master cylinders started to seep brake fluid at a fitting. During the last annual condition inspection I took them out. It really boils down to a personal choice based on how you see your plane being used.
I do think it would be easier to fit the right side brakes up and work out any issues while the fuselage is in the canoe state versue retro-fitting a finished plane. Each year it just gets harder to get down under that panel and work on things! So, if there is any doubt in your mind, put them in now.
 
dual brakes

Chad

you may or may not ever need dual brakes
but consider this... all of us probably have a few of tools that we used sparingly or maybe once in our project but it sure is nice to have them when we need them and it is a major pain not to have them when we need them..dual brakes fall in the same category

as for the added complexity and time to build issue...if you use the time you spent thinking, asking questions on this forum, reading the responses and reply to them... you probably get the dual brakes installed already

as for the weight issue how about shedding a pound or two from our belly and use that weight for the brakes..we'll be better off

in the interest of full disclosure.... I am a CFI so I am biased toward dual brakes..I had dual brakes in the RV6A and the RV10

Son
N172KT
 
Thanks for the suggestions...however, time is not an issue. I don't care how long it takes, and I like asking stuff on the forums. :)

For weight...I'm a scrawny little 170 pound guy...don't really want to lose anything at this point...that'll change someday, I know. :D

Thanks again everyone.
 
Share the experience

I am including dual brakes in my RV-7 specifically so I can let others fly it from the right seat. I want to be able to share the RV experience.

Last fall an RV-6 visited our field, and I was offered an opportunity to fly it. I flew with the owner, of couse, but I acted as PIC. That was a far more valuable experience than a "ride" in the factory demo plane at Sun-N-Fun.

I'm looking forward to asking my pilot friends, "Do you want to go fly the RV?"

Sport aviation is as much about shared experiences as it is about the flying.
 
I TOTALLY agree Dave. I plan to let as many people that want to fly it, fly it. Just not takeoff and land... ;)
 
cjensen said:
I have no kids (don't plan on any either)
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Well my wife and I felt that way for a loooong time ago to my friend. And then day "she" starting thinking.... huuuuummmm... ;) so... you agree and 2 years later POP! :eek:

Next thing you know you have a co-pilot and wouldn't change that for the world.

One day much later you can add those passenger brakes.

-Jeff

NEWJEFF%20814s.jpg


NEWJEFF%20827s.jpg
 
Should I get the dual brakes option? Without this option, do passengers still get rudder pedals? How much weight/complexity added by dual brakes?
 
Phil, you can always add them latter.

I didn't put passenger brakes in my plane. I figured that I would be saving the weight (not much), some money (a little) and some time by not putting them in.
I don't plane on anyone but me taking off or landing the plane. Most of the time I don't even have the passenger stick in as my wife (main passenger) doesn't want airplane stuff on her side.

Kent
 
I did it...

I added the dual brakes. I wouldn't want to add them later because diving under the panel for that kind of work would be a serious PITA. Not to mention you'd have to bleed the brakes and clean up a brake-fluid mess. Doing it ahead of time is a piece of cake and doesn't add to the complexity hardly at all.

You still get rudder peddles on the passenger side, but an extra set of brakes couldn't hurt, and it adds to the value of the plane.
 
Just a thought, but it might be hard to find an instructor that will fly with you if you do not have dual brakes. Some buyers might want them. Are you sure you are going to fly from the left seat?


Tracy.
 
but it might be hard to find an instructor that will fly with you if you do not have dual brakes
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Very good point, hadn't thought of that. And I probably will want to do some IFR training in my RV.
 
So does the canopy and landing gear come with the fuse kit, or the finishing kit?
Just about to fax my order in!!
 
prkaye said:
Very good point, hadn't thought of that. And I probably will want to do some IFR training in my RV.
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I only have pilot side brakes in my plane...never had an issue with instructors (various). I sort of feel that once you start working on your IFR ticket, you probably know how to stop the plane by then.

My RV will only have pilot's side brakes. Personal choice.
 
I agree with John

If you are still learning to fly, you will want brakes on both sides. Or if you will be teaching someone else to fly, then yes. But if you don't need the instructor to save your landings, you won't need the second set of brakes.

For those that dread getting under the panel to work on things (I was one of them), Get over it. Sooner or later your going to get to feel that spar in your back, learn to enjoy it. ;)

Kent
 
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Your choice

As others have said, you might not have any problem finding an instructor that would fly without brakes, so that was just a thought. Originally, I was not sure if I would fly from the right or left seat, so I ordered the dual brakes, just in case. Now that I have my 7A to the point where I have the control sticks and seats in, I see no reason to move to the right side.

Another thought was that I might want to let someone fly from the left seat. No way am I going to fly from the right without brakes while someone else is sitting in the left seat. Of course, on the other hand, you might want to allow someone in the right seat to follow through on the pedals, but you might not want to have them touching the brakes. I've heard that dragging the brakes on takeoff is a common problem for some RV pilots.

As you can see, there is no right answer to this question. These are just some of the arguments for and against. That's the beauty of homebuilt aircraft, it's your choice.

Tracy.
 
nose wheel

I would think anyone building an A model should seriosely consider passenger side brakes. Kinda hard for the passenger or instructor to steer a castering nose wheel without the brakes!
 
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On my airline....

wingtime said:
I would think anyone building an A model should seriosely consider passenger side brakes. Kinda hard to steer a castering nose wheel without the brakes!
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The pilot gets to do all the steering and the passanger is along for the ride.

Kent
 
finish kit

prkaye said:
So does the canopy and landing gear come with the fuse kit, or the finishing kit?
Just about to fax my order in!!
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Hey, Phil...when you order your fuse, have the finish kit sent with it. You'll
save a ton O' money shipping both at the same time. Gear is shipped with fuse, canopy with finish kit. So make up your mind which engine to bolt on and order the rest of the kit. :)
 
ANOTHER WAY....

prkaye said:
Should I get the dual brakes option? Without this option, do passengers still get rudder pedals? How much weight/complexity added by dual brakes?
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The unused cyls will leak first... So for the few times that the brakes will be used on the right side, I made them work by cable to the two master cyl's on the left side.

Simple, 2 less cyl's, less lines and less connections. No leaks and really easy to bleed. Cheaper by a lot!! and also lighter. And if they never get used, at least I am not looking at all of that un needed stuff under there.

Warren
 
If some of your best friends are pilots, and you like to share flying duties as well as "complete start to finish" takeoffs and landings........then put the dang things in! :D

L.Adamson
RV6A -- nearly finished 4 color paint, and dual brakes
 
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