777Dave

777Dave

Well Known Member
Did my first rolls and loops on the weekend having read Van's basic instructions published in RVator several years back... could it be that easy?
I had practised pull ups to 25-30 degrees and rapid rolls from 45 to 45 and finally figured I was mentally ready so.... All I can say is what a blast and why did I wait?
Loops were slightly more daunting so more discussion with an expert... but same result! What a great little airplane! What more can I say. A person could get hooked this stuff! ;)
 
777Dave said:
Did my first rolls and loops on the weekend having read Van's basic instructions published in RVator several years back... could it be that easy?
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Dave - if I interpret your message correctly, you don't have previous aerobatic experience. While I understand your enthusiasm, please understand that there are several ways that manoeuvres can get screwed up, and the pilot's natural response can lead to big problems.

RVs are not the best machine for self-taught aerobatics. They are so clean, that if you screw up and get the nose pointed down, the speed will build very quickly, and a very large overspeed is the result. Couple that with low wing loading, light stick forces, and you may pull too hard and over-g the airplane.

You also want to be very comfortable with spin recoveries, as a screwed up manoeuvre could result in a spin. These are usually upright spins, but inverted spins are possible too, even in RVs.

Please, please find an experienced aerobatic guy to show you the ropes.
 
Hi Dave

Kevin Horton said:
RVs are not the best machine for self-taught aerobatics. They are so clean, that if you screw up and get the nose pointed down, the speed will build very quickly, and a very large overspeed is the result.
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Kevin has very valid points, Dave. Yes, you can easily do aerobatics in RV's, you can also make a sizable hole in the ground....there's quite a bit of precedence there, by other unfortunate souls.

Two guys in an -8 removed the wings during botched aerobatics and both obviously died, as did two others in a -4 in Oz.

Be very aware of your CG position and read, read and read....better yet, as Kevin said, a few hours of dual can go a long way to enhance your safety and enjoyment of that wonderful airplane of yours.

Regards,
 
Years back, one of the members in our EAA chapter nearly killed himself and his daughter while doing acro in a KR2. He'd been trying rolls with it, which seemed easy enough, so he thought he knew how to do it.

He then took his daughter up for a ride, and rolled the airplane again. Somewhere during the maneuver, he very naturally looked "up", and you guessed it, he split-s'ed out of the roll. The resulting dive took the airplane well past V_ne, and he over-g'd it badly in the pullout.

After landing, he found both left and right side upper wing skins were buckled. :eek: Totaled the airplane, in one simple step.

Like golf, its not always how well you make the shot but how you recover from mistakes that makes the difference. Please get some good instruction, including recovery from botched maneuvers and spins.

Fly safe...
 
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Yep, Mannan....

....and along those lines....We had a couple of guys flying big Air Tractor 602's here a couple of years ago, fertilizing pine trees. One of them was intrigued by my RV, so I offered him a ride and after a roll or two, he asked if he could do one. He assured me that he knew how, so stupid me says yes.

He suddenly put in max left aileron without first pitching up and before I could say $$it, we were upside down, diving:eek: I yanked the throttle back and held the aileron 'til we righted, near VNE! To think...this guy had several thousand ag hours but no acro.

Stuff happens,
 
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I to am getting the bug to do some acro. But, I thought I would research somebody to take me up and show me the ropes first. I guess I'm chicken to just do it. Just like mountain flying, I didn't do it until I got some training, glad I did, you can get into some real trouble doing that also.
 
learning from the masters...

Great post.

Thanks for the "heads up". As a mostly self taught 400 hour pilot, I figured basic rolls and stuff would be easy to do. The RV videos make it look so natural ... was thinking once I got my -4 just "cowboy up" and do it.

Now I realize training will be very important when I score my -4. Thanks for sharing your experiences.

Thanks again, Dan
 
Thanks Dan....

and an addendum.

Van publishes accurate weight figures for the acrobatic models of RV's and at times W@B information. Your airplane needs to fall into those parameters for aerobatics...the max weight and the CG, both very important, for beginners.

The -4 that went in in Oz had an aft CG condition and was way overweight as well....by a couple hundred pounds IIRC. Spin characteristics in a beyond-aft limit may or may not be recoverable and also are one of the first aerobatic maneuvers that should be taught, since a botched loop or Immelman could easily result in a spin....and these airplanes spin well...meaning they started hauling a$$, rotating fast.

Regards,
 
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777Dave said:
Did my first rolls and loops on the weekend having read Van's basic instructions published in RVator several years back... could it be that easy?
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One other thing caught my eye. You signature line indicates you have a fixed pitch prop. To me, this is even more reason to get some training to avoid speed buildup on the downlines. We with CS props have a little bit of a get out of jail card. I typically flatten the prop and, as my aerobtic instructor said, "fly it like I stole it".

Get some training and have fun. Like the children's saying goes: It's all fun and games until something goes wrong and someone gets their eye poked out:eek:
 
thanks for all the words of warning guys, I am not a daredevil , I can tell you. Even stopped riding my motorcycle when the traffic got too hectic and my kids came along.
But I was well prepared for this exercise and don't advocate "just going out and doing it!"
In my 40 years in aviation I have seen quite a bit and 21,000 hours, although not spent doing aerobatics, allows one to be comfortable in the cockpit. Does rolling a 777 sim count for anything? Relaxation and education are key factors and I felt great with the results.

My main point was to complement the designers of this wonderful little airplane.
Thanks for the input.
 
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Think of it this way - during normal ops, twin-engined aircraft are almost as easy to fly as single-engine aircraft. The only difference is you have to get your hand over two throttles instead of just one. A competent single-engine aircraft pilot could fly any light twin - as long as an engine doesn't quit. Then suddenly he has a major problem.

Given that engines don't quit all that often, would you consider it safe for a pilot without a multi-engine rating to fly a twin-engine aircraft?

Aerobatics are easy as long as everything works out as planned. It is when there is a botched manoeuvre that things get ugly quickly.
 
Writing skills

777 Dave,
When I first saw this post It was obvious to me that your flying is very professional. I imagine; Safety, knowledge, Positive control, & Discipline is what your stick time is all about. With 350+ souls riding behind you (including me at times) guess it you have to be that way.
My writing is not too good, and hope I did not indicate that your flying style or skills or the way you approach a flight or manovuer might be comparible to my style.
I am grateful that your post may have had the unintended result of opening my eyes a bit wider to flying qualities of the RV-4. And things I need to beware of.
My thanks, Dan
 
777Dave said:
... Does rolling a 777 sim count for anything? ... snip
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Unfortunately, no. The only thing "acro-useful" from the Triple sim (at least for me) was practicing unusual attitude recoveries, and then only in a general sense. But, the Triple is great, eh?!!

Flying and maneuvering through the entire 3D envelope is fun indeed, but sometimes it doesn't go as planned. Recovering from a botched roll, split-S, or immelman requires fairly quick and correct piloting. For instance, you can accidentally split-S out of a roll (overspeed/over-g/GLOC yourself), and its easy to spin out of the immelman. Any of these seemingly innocuous maneuvers can bite back. Much of what goes wrong is intuitively driven in the first place, so (untrained) intuition won't lead to correct recovery actions either. As a fellow airline toad, I know that our heads aren't on swivels like they need to be for flying acro under the RV Bubble.

The next "level" of surprises usually occurs when you let your friend/passenger try something themselves. I've read a few posts here on VAF where someone's buddy, with gobs of flying "experience", blew a basic maneuver. Then you're faced with a rapid, unplanned transfer of control that might have to be followed by some really aggressive inputs to stay in the envelope. Oh yeah, was transfer of control briefed before takeoff? Ever had to fight your student off the controls? :eek:

With your experience, your learning curve will be straight-up, and you'll have more fun than should be legally allowed. Now go find a really really good instructor! :D
 
cawmd82 said:
Can you loop it also?
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HA!! I've tried several times, and the plane does this REALLY weird "flip" right at the top. Tail over nose, going backwards, and somebody usually says "what the heck was that!!??!!" I think the software just throws up, but my bet is the plane would loop if asked to. But you'll over-g it Big Time (transport category planes only good to +2.5g as I recall)

For sim fun, I prefer the carrier launch, or a 300 knot blast down the LV strip at about 100 feet. Oh yeah, pylon racing the 737 is pretty cool too!! :D
 
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For the new guys...Yes of course be careful...

For the new guys
Without saying don't do it... Here is an example of what you might want to be prepared for if you do aerobatics.

Yes... to have someone show you the ropes is always a good idea. It will surely make you more comfortable when on your own... and something happens and someday it probably will.

If you continue to do aerobatics you will eventually botch one as you try new things. I was most grateful for the training I had received on recovery from unusual attitudes. There I was upside down in a spin from a botched Immelman and all I could think of was... Well now you have done it... Hope the plane responds like it is supposed to. I knew what had to be done,ailerons neutral rudder opposite the spin nose down (upside down) and out she came. I think it is quite possible that such a situation could easily panic a pilot who was on his the first attempt at aerobatics. I am not sure I would have handeled the situation well without some earlier recovery training and experience.

Oh yea and the plane barfed oil all over the belly just to let me know that negative Gs are not to be done without a full inverted oil system. I knew that! I was just doing all the performance numbers once for the log so that I would not be busted for operating outside the design parameters in the future. I never intended to use this (RV7A) as an aerobatic plane, or at least I never plan to do neg Gs. Note: hammer heads will dump the oil just as badly so those are out for me also.

Have fun, be careful please. I would like to talk each one of you some day.;)
 
One nore note:

Pull back the throttle quickly when going down hill. These things do over-speed easily as reported by many!!!!! Don't hesitate to initiate recovery if you need it.
 
Dave,
I finally have mine up and flying. I have to agree that it is a blast burning holes in the sky doing aero's. Loops, rolls, clovers, cubans, reverse cubans really makes you realize the freedom flying provides.
I hope you're still having fun in the RV.
 
acro

Years ago I had an acro student in the Pitts who had scared himself real bad in the RV6. He split s'd out of a botched roll, very close to the ground and very fast. I'm not sure if he knew how many G's. I think the only thing that saved him was the constant speed prop and the fact that at some point he got the power back to idle. Before people started pulling the wings off T34's, I was flying with a very experienced ex Navy pilot, lots of T34 time, flew the airplane superbly. He had a "mental moment" and got started down hill very quickly starting at a much too high speed. We got well past the red line because I had developed too much confidence in him and let him go too far. He was very embaressed and apologetic. I knew of two other people who had close calls doing acro with RV's but don't remember all the details. This was the era where Van advocated self taught acro.
 
self taught acro

I have taught some basic acro and almost always the student gets "lost" the first time they do a manuever. I demonstrate, now you follow me on the controls, now you do it and they almost always get inverted and forget to finish the roll. Not much room for errors in the rv's. IF you want to get screwed up roll inverted one direction and then roll up right the other. Here is a short video including a 1.5 turn spin.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmUddsYeSxo

Chris M
 
777Dave said:
Did my first rolls and loops on the weekend having read Van's basic instructions published in RVator several years back... could it be that easy?
Click to expand...

Or to answer the original question - YES, loops and rolls are that easy....but doing them with precision is another matter. Of course this assumes you've gained the competence not to drill a hole in the ground.

777Dave said:
In my 40 years in aviation I have seen quite a bit and 21,000 hours, although not spent doing aerobatics, allows one to be comfortable in the cockpit.
Click to expand...

What's that ding, ding, ding I'm hearing?
 
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I would have to say that mental preparation is key to someone with limited aerobatic experience to get better. Going airborne with a plan that you have 'chair flown' prior to flying will greatly make the mission more productive. You may have a sequence jotted on a piece of paper that you can fly in your mind several times prior to stepping out to your airplane. Keep in mind that it may not be possible to fly the sequence from start to finish in order to ensure a adequate lookout / belly checks / clearing turns.
Staying 'two mistakes' high may help you not hit the ground, but it won't necessarily prevent you from exceeding the design limit of your airplane or engine. Having benchmarks that you want to achieve will help you rate your performance and also provide you with your progress. Aerobatics are not meant to be dangerous....but the risks definitely go up if you blindly go out there and try 'stuff' without first thinking things through......
 
I have no trouble with loops, rolls and barrel rolls, but immelmanns get to me. When i get to top of loop and want to start my roll to right side up (i have decided before i start the immelmann which way i will roll, left or right) i wonder which way is left as think it is backwards from right side up, so i end up stalling and recovering from that. I can accomplish it by holding a 10 degree bank throughout and then rolling towards the low wing. anyway it is great fun, but i don't usually start below 8000 feet agl to give me lots of time to recover. But really don't try any acro without instruction. I had some many years ago. fred
 
Immelman

Fred, unlike yaw, perceived roll direction is the same upright or inverted. Left is left, right is right.

For the Immelman I think you'll find it better to roll left (left stick :)) The half-roll upright is done at high power, low airspeed, meaning significant propellor slipstream effect causing yaw to your left. If you roll left, this yaw will help keep the nose up during the knife-edge portion of the roll, with less rudder needed than if you rolled right.
 
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