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diamond

Well Known Member
I'm curious how many of you have included your thinking and planning time when you report your total build time. Here's why I ask. I'd like to be able to build a -9 in 3 years time. It seems that the typical "build time" for most of the kits is reported between 2000 and 3000 hours. I'm trying to plan ahead and decide when I will have time during the course of a day to build. At work, I stay busy, but I do have frequent periods of down-time that could be used for planning. The question is how efficiently can one plan when physically away from the project itself. If I could put in at least 1 hour a day doing planning/researching while at work, would that be feasable? or does most of the thinking/planning need to be done when the kit is there in front of you?
 
diamond said:
I'm curious how many of you have included your thinking and planning time when you report your total build time. Here's why I ask. I'd like to be able to build a -9 in 3 years time. It seems that the typical "build time" for most of the kits is reported between 2000 and 3000 hours. I'm trying to plan ahead and decide when I will have time during the course of a day to build. At work, I stay busy, but I do have frequent periods of down-time that could be used for planning. The question is how efficiently can one plan when physically away from the project itself. If I could put in at least 1 hour a day doing planning/researching while at work, would that be feasable? or does most of the thinking/planning need to be done when the kit is there in front of you?
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It does not count thinking time because you would have to count every waking second and some dreams if you did.

Much planning can happen away from the project. In fact the internet is great for planning but can be dangerous (read expensive) place to spend too much time.
 
I'm not counting my build hours. Just get out in the garage and start working!
The only real measure of build time is start to finish by calendar date.

When you need help or have questions, search the forums and other sites until you can figure what you need to do back out in the garage. I don't consider researching time as build time. I probably have 3 times as many hours "researching" as I do building.
And don't forget time spent waiting for things you need to show up in the mail. ;)
 
I didn't count planning or research time in my build hours. I would
carry with me to the office a file folder with the the preview plan pages
and construction manual pages that applied to what I was working on.
Reviewing what I planned to accomplish that evening went along way
towards being as efficient as possible.
 
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diamond said:
I'm curious how many of you have included your thinking and planning time when you report your total build time. Here's why I ask. I'd like to be able to build a -9 in 3 years time. It seems that the typical "build time" for most of the kits is reported between 2000 and 3000 hours. I'm trying to plan ahead and decide when I will have time during the course of a day to build. At work, I stay busy, but I do have frequent periods of down-time that could be used for planning. The question is how efficiently can one plan when physically away from the project itself. If I could put in at least 1 hour a day doing planning/researching while at work, would that be feasable? or does most of the thinking/planning need to be done when the kit is there in front of you?
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No, not at all - if I did, I'm sure it would increase the time significantly.

When doing my electrical, for example, I drew schematics for everything. I created a load chart, and refined it as I went. Same thing with my IFR avionics stack. It feels like I spent more time planning than actually working on these items (but the electrical system worked first time - we'll see about the avionics).
 
Build Time

When I record build time it is just that, time spend in the shop actually building the airplane. Sometimes I include the time I spend making a special tool or jig but not always. I expect that the 2000-3000 hours quoted for most builds is workshop time only.

The answer to your question is "yes", you can spend a significant amount of time "planning" away from the actual workshop. I include "education" in the planning and it seems everthing I do on the project involves research and education. The curse of the engineer is you have to choose the "best" components and processes for your project. But how do you decide what is "best"? What's the criteria to make a decision?

Planning means different things to different people. Actually planning the sequence of events in construction for me was simply a matter of reading Van's instructions and following them. Planning could also include the education aspect as discussed above. To me the most important part of planning is deciding on the systems and equipment to be installed and deciding where in the airframe to put them, how to mount, ground, route etc. The most important aspect of this is to plan far enough ahead that you make provisions for this equipment before you close up an assembly or "paint yourself into a corner". There will be plenty of this kind of planning to keep you busy in your down time at work
 
Build Time

diamond said:
I'm curious how many of you have included your thinking and planning time when you report your total build time. ...
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If you included your thinking and planning time, then you'd be talking about a lot of hours to complete your RV. Don't you know that with fewer hours claimed other builders will admire your testosterone levels? :D [I assume you're a man.]

I have often wondered how people measured their time. In manufacturing there are "overhead" labor costs like accounting, marketing, engineering, etc., and there are "touch labor" costs like fabrication, assembly, inspection and test. I used to think folks were only recording their "assembly" hours.

In the end, you should ask yourself, "does it really matter?" Your DAR or FAA inspector would probably like to see some indication of your labor hours but I don't think he/she will say you did a better or worse job because of how much time you say it took.

Go forth and multiply. :eek:
 
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rv7boy said:
If you included your thinking and planning time, then you'd be talking about a lot of hours to complete your RV. Don't you know that with fewer hours claimed other builders will admire your testosterone levels? :D [I assume you're a man.]

I have often wondered how people measured their time. In manufacturing there are "overhead" labor costs like accounting, marketing, engineering, etc., and there are "touch labor" costs like fabrication, assembly, inspection and test. I used to think folks were only recording their "assembly" hours.

In the end, you should ask yourself, "does it really matter?" Your DAR or FAA inspector would probably like to see some indication of your labor hours but I don't think he/she will say you did a better or worse job because of how much time you say it took.

Go forth and multiply. :eek:
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My only real concern right now, as it pertains to build hours, is that I set realistic goals based on how many hours others took to build. So when I see a builder with 2500 hours into a kit, it is helpful for me to know if he/she is talking about actual build time or build + planning time. Before I take the big step, I want to give my family an educated approximation of how much and how long I will be in the shop building, so as to reduce the likelihood of an uprising down the road. Once I start the build, I doubt that I will keep an accurate tally of my hours.
 
Time

My build time was roughly 3000 hours -- slow build RV7. That did not include planning or research, only time I was in the shop physically working on the plane.
 
diamond said:
My only real concern right now, as it pertains to build hours, is that I set realistic goals based on how many hours others took to build. So when I see a builder with 2500 hours into a kit, it is helpful for me to know if he/she is talking about actual build time or build + planning time. Before I take the big step, I want to give my family an educated approximation of how much and how long I will be in the shop building, so as to reduce the likelihood of an uprising down the road. Once I start the build, I doubt that I will keep an accurate tally of my hours.
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Seeing another builder with 2500 hours in a project isn't of much help in planning your project. There is a huge variation in builder proficiency and time management. Some builders think every task to death and end up with a lot of build time. Others just get in the shop and build the thang without worrying about planning out how long the project will take. ;)

In case you have not seen an article I wrote many years ago about shop time management:

Working Smart

By the way, I had ~1000 hours shop time logged on my RV-6.......but I didn't mess around......... :)
 
Check out "Working Smart" on Sam Buchanan's homepage The RV Journal.
It is the best answer to your question that I've seen or heard--and if you look at his build time--way back when--it must have worked really well.

Of course, I haven't followed Sam's good advice at all. If I had--I'd probably be flying by now :D
 
Yes Sam. Very nice write-up on time management for the build. Now if I can just muster the discipline to execute all the pre-building steps so as to maximize shop time. When I did the EAA RV builders class last spring, it was very apparent to me that the full spectrum of personalities were present. Those who mulled things over a half dozen times before picking up a tool, and those who seemed to never lay a tool down. At the time, I felt I was somewhere in the middle.
 
Yes

Absolutely. I'm not talking about just thinking while watching my peas and mashed potatoes get consumed. But, essential design work and planning is as much a part of building an RV as the dirt simple process of drilling holes and driving rivets.

It took me 8 years to build my airplane in calendar terms and 3,877.8 hours before the first flight. Every time I cut everything out of my life and focused directly on working on the project is logged and many hundreds of photographs are dated on the back to correlate them with the log entry made when they were taken and are inserted chronologically into an album that is currently 10 inches thick with 12 photos on each page (6 on each side). As I continue to modify the airplane all modification work (configuration change, not regular service or repair) is documented in the log and the album. The current hour count is 5580.7. The airplane is a quick built short tail RV-6A.

I believe most people take much longer to build their airplanes than they originally think it will take them and they spend much more money to do it than they expected to spend.

Bob Axsom

P.S. This is the only airplane I will ever build, so every task was new. I worked in aerospace for 50 years and I took the basic training when it was still available at Vans. When I was working on the airplane I had a 4 hour daily work commute and a absolute minimum of 8.5 hours on the job each day, a lot of odd hour work, and out of town travel on weekends. I had zero contact with other builders during the project. Some of these things cause inefficiency in building so your pace may be better. My plan was to build the plane and do whatever it took to get it right.
 
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What Sam Buchanan said. Two major rules (break them at peril to your time and efficiency):

1. Have a good idea of what you are going to do every time you walk into your shop.

2. Have a place that never changes, for EVERY tool (including tape, clecoes, drill bits, clamps, sandpaper, pen, awl, hardware, etc). When finished with a tool, put it back even if you're going to need it again in 10 minutes. I've spent WAY longer than that looking for something to write with.

Still finished in 3.5 years (F1 Rocket), but I worked on something on the airplane at least 5 days per week---but often didn't get much done even though I spent a lot of time on it.

Good luck and no kidding about Sams advice. Wish I had taken it. I will next time, I guarantee it.

Lee...
 
I didn't include "planning", but i did round up to the next full hour to account for "prep" time. Each day I made it my goal to complete at least one task. I foung that my spreadsheet was a great way to organize my efforts. When I worked for Boeing I despised "bar" progress charts. As a builder, I loved them.

P.S. I just read Sam's build log.. Wow 995 for a RV 6. That's impressive!
 
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time..

If build time is a major factor, then go the full QB route. My QB -9A took 1650 hrs of hands on shop time. I agree that it takes 2 to 3 hrs of "planning,ordering,field engineering" for every hr of building. Building is a HUGE commitment. Build because you want to build, otherwise buy one already built. It will probably be cheaper to buy than build.
 
Work on 1 hour outside the workshop for each hour inside!

I reckon that for every workshop hour I logged on "Rough Red" I had put in at least one hour thought time outside the workshop. This could be as simple as setting a goal to get to the end of a particular build section like an aileron. Outside the workshop I rehearsed how it could best be achieved. (setting up the back riveting plate etc)
There are other examples of external thought time on say the choice of Radio's. The choice in my case, determined the layout of the instrument panel but this took place whilst the empenage was being built.

I put in about 2,200 hours in the workshop, mainly after work, without too much procrastination or displacement activity. I attribut this to getting the reasons for "not finishing" a task out of the way, outside the workshop.

There is nothing worse than getting into the workshop and standing about thinking what to do next, then getting a call to dinner and ending up achieving little.

Just my two cents worth!

Ted
RV-6A "Rough Red"
 
2. Have a place that never changes, for EVERY tool (including tape, clecoes, drill bits, clamps, sandpaper, pen, awl, hardware, etc). When finished with a tool, put it back even if you're going to need it again in 10 minutes. I've spent WAY longer than that looking for something to write with.
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My current project is in a new shop that's still evolving so things keep moving. I must have 100 hours deciding where to hang "stuff" and another 100 walking laps around the shop looking for "stuff" that I just hung up. Of course that's not wasted time because it allows both hands for cigarettes & coffee, I call that "planning time".
 
I did alot of planning, research, tool gathering, etc

while saving for the kit. I don't include ordering parts or internet research, talking on the phone to other builders in my time. I don't have a website, I don't retype everything in the manual for a website and don't keep track of time on the computer. I write start and end time right beside the step and check off as I complete that step. If I skip something or need to go back to a particular page I mark it with a sticky note. I don't skip any sections unless waiting on a part, tool or for something to cure/dry. I have spent average 2.5 hrs per day for the last year. I have had a good RV-9A/RV-10 mentor nearby which helps alot. My 5-10 min breaks consist of this with some water and a snack. I have 884 hrs so far and est about 1,800 hrs to finish.(Paying for paint after phase I). I have watched about 20 hrs of TV and read about 6 books in the last year. Most of my spare time after family and work is spent building. Cessna rentals tend to give you some extra motivation too.
 
I never keep track of hours or a detailed build log, I prefer to spend that time working on the airplane. Just keep a digital camera in the shop and take a few pictures of each major step of the process.

Pat
 
I'm using a time logging app on my iPhone. I track study time along with actual work time but with this software I categorize everything. So when I'm done I'll be able to identify how much time I spend studying as well as time on each assembly.
 
If I included the "thinking" time that goes in to my builds, it would be about, oh....35 years? I am constantly thinking through the kit, systems layouts, equipment requirements (not to mention selecting, researching, and ordering stuff...), and no, I don't count it. that's a way of life, thinking about airplanes. I log shop time because I am an engineer, and like to account for things. No requirement to do so - I just like to know!

Paul
 
My 7 took me 16 months to complete. I didn't keep a time log but I averaged 25 hrs a week building it. On the Cub I put a time clock in the hangar because I wanted to know just how long it really takes to build. I punch in and out every work session and write a brief note on what was done. I don't include time figuring out and ordering parts. One thing you need to do is do something on the project every day even if it is only 30 min. However the longer the work session the more productive you are. Also my friends know to limit their visits so they don't slow me down. Don
 
Optional time?

Some big blocks of time that guys may or may not be counting are:
1) Instrument panel. Some do every speck of it, some farm it all out. Buncha hours there.

2) Paint. Same deal

3) Engine. Build/rebuild your own or pop on a new factory motor.

4) Interior. Full range from minimal to deluxe. Buy it or do every stitch yourself.

5) Misc. options like full dual controls, adjustable rudder pedals, electric or extra trims, cowl attachment or hidden screws, etc.

6) "visitors"
 
No need

As Pat noted above, he didn't keep one. RV's aren't "science projects" anymore and DAR's and the FAA guys know what they are. Unless you want to do it for pure entertainment, there really is no need for detailed record of time. There maybe someone out there, but I know of no one who has gone back to their build log after they got their Pink Slip:)

Convert the time you're using to document your hours to build time and you'll be flying sooner. (Same with computer time.)
 
I only logged the hours worked by me. If I had help it was still my hours, not those of my help.

I did log the time sitting at the computer laying out my electricle system.

My total build time includes topping my O-290, changing the accessory case, all the custom work for that engine, and mods such as installing the throttle quad.

In short, you can't really compare one builder's hours to another's.
 
It is called "building time" not "building and planning time"

It took 3,000 hours to build my RV-6 over 8.5 years.

That is BUILDING time not planning time. I think we are always planning so I do not keep track of it. Building time is hands on time and not planning.
 
bruceh said:
....The only real measure of build time is start to finish by calendar date....
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I define "build time" by noting 2 simple, easy to understand milestone dates:

Start: The day the empennage kit is dropped off at your door.
Finish: The day your RV receives its Airworthiness Certificate.

All other factors, including carefully prepared builders' logs documenting expended time serve nothing more than to provide a measure of personal satisfaction to the builder who took the time to create the log. He may care but the FAA certainly does not care.

When I ask someone how long it took to them to build their RV, NOTHING they tell me (divorce, sickness, waiting on parts, blah blah blah) is as illuminating as the amount of time spanning those two aforementioned calendar dates.
 
Rick6a said:
I define "build time" by noting 2 simple, easy to understand milestone dates:

Start: The day the empennage kit is dropped off at your door.

S3010015.jpg
date logged on one of the workbenches when we opened the empennage kit.



Finish: The day your RV receives its Airworthiness Certificate.
(see signature line)
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