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flymustangs

Well Known Member
I'm "working" on an RV-3 and have once again become disenchanted with the project. This is not my first attempt at an RV, I've worked on an RV-4 and an RV-8 in the past. It happened much quicker with the RV-3 and I think that is mostly because of the plans. I knew that the RV-3 plans were probably not the best, but these should be embarrassing to Vans. I'm also aware that there is no financial advantage for Vans to redo the plans or to restructure the kit to a pre-punch.

Yes, many people have successfully completed these. Maybe their tolerance for frustration is higher than mine. This now has me questioning my decision to build an RV-3 and a single place for that matter. I didn't make this decision overnight. I studied on it a long time, almost buying a completed RV-3 at one point. You may recall the statement from Vans regarding wing fuel and aerobatic gross weight. I was pretty much the catalyst that started that chain. Randy Lervold was finally able to get the definitive answer from Vans.

I'm sure I could come up with some other Van's bashing, but that doesn't help and doesn't solve my problem. What have others out there done when they find themselves in this situation? Maybe I was just never destined to build an aircraft. I finally bought a flying Glastar when I sold my RV-8 kit and realized how spendy the finished RV-8's were. I love the Glastar, but have always liked the RV's. I figured if I built an RV-3 I could afford to have the best of both worlds.

I sincerely apologize for the rambling. I think I will coin a new term for people like me. Instead of repeat offender for people that have actually completed more than one of these, how about offensive repeater for people that have started more than one, but never finished?

Thanks.
 
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Ken,

No doubt every individual has a different tolerance for frustration! I know that for many years, I admired the design of the RV's, but not having any real experience at sheet metal fabrication (just enough repair experience to be nervous...), I did not think I wanted to spend ten years shaping and building an all-metal airplane. The problem was, I was thinking old-school, when all you got in a kit was a set of plans and some flat sheet stock! A co-worker turned me on to the latest in QB kits a little over two years ago, and now I have five months and 130 hours on my brand new RV-8!

Maybe if your previous -8 kit was one of the earlier ones, and you still have the urge to give an RV a try, you might look at the current state of the art with pre-punched. Give the tail a try, or find someone that is building one. I never built any jigs - you can practically make it look like a tail with clecoes alone, right out of the box! If that doesn't work for you, then it might very well be that your talents lie elsewhere - and that's OK too!

One other suggestion is to ask yourself what exactly it is that makes you quit during a build session. Is it the repetetative nature of drill, dimple, repeat? Is it assemble-disassemble-resassemble (repeat!)? Is it priming? Some things can be helped, and others can't - might help you to know if you are doomed from the start! If it's hole layout, for instance, thre is hope - you don't do that on a pre-punched kit!

Paul

Paul
 
One piece at a time

Ken,
Are you allowing yourself to become overwhelmed at the size of the whole project? I think it's critical to break it down into a series (maybe a LONG series) of small jobs. Focus on getting one thing completed before you think too much about the next. Try to work on the RV-3 at least a little every day. Take advantage of the many websites out there; you're not likely to run into any problems that someone hasn't worked through before.
But it sounds like the main thing you should keep in mind is to work steadily, taking it one step at a time, and don't feel as though you're not progressing as fast as somebody else. It's your project, so you get to set the pace!
 
Go to Sun n Fun and enjoy yourself

flymustangs said:
I'm "working" on an RV-3 and have once again become disenchanted with the project.
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Your up in the Northwest, right? High in the 50's and a chance of rain all week? Go to the airport and buy a ticket to Sun n Fun, today. Go there, walk around, enjoy the sun, have a few beers at the beer tent. Next week you'll be back at home ready to get back to work on the plane. I always found that I was energized after a trip to Oshkosh or Sun n Fun.
 
Wiliam got it right. I think one of the things that can burn you out is feeling like you have to stay on some sort of self-imposed schedule.

There seem to be two types of builders. Those that HAVE to build the airplane to have an RV, and those that GET to build one.

Had I told myself that I was going to be done in such in such a time, I too would have gotten very discouraged. There have been many times during the course of my project that I was amazed at how much time it took me to do what appeared to be the simplest task. I can remember taking all day to drill two holes! I won't even mention all the times I did things over for whatever reason.

You have to keep your building project in prospective. Do you view it as a job, or is it a hobby? For me, it has definitely been a hobby. One that I have enjoyed beyond description. I recently told my wife that I think I am a troubleshooting junkie. I really enjoy working my way through some of the challenges that I have come up against while building the RV.

Since you say you have a Glastar to fly, perhaps you need to treat the RV as more of a hobby and enjoy the challenge that it presents you. Its not like you HAVE to build the RV to have something to fly.

Take small steps, and enjoy the journey.



Regards,
 
Give it up man!

This is not for you! If you are not motivated enought to finish the first plane you start - forget it - you do not have the desire that it takes to do the job.

Bob Axsom
 
It's all about perspective

In the Vans factory video Ken Scott makes a very appropriate statement: "Kitplanes are a mixed bag. you either GET TO build it, or you GOTTA build it". As many others have said, momentum is paramount. Many days(maybe most!) I'm tired when I get home from work, but I make myself go out to the garage(aka airplane factory) and what starts out as "GOTTA build it" turns into "GET TO build it" in the first 5 or 10 minutes. And I whole-heartedly agree that a time-table will defeat you. I'm getting tired of people asking me when it will fly, so instead of trying to be witty, I just say, "Who the hell knows? How do you swag something that you have never done before?" I especially get discouraged when some builders(Dan Checkoway comes to mind) build a spectacular bird in 2-1/2 years. Standard build, no less! I've been on mine for 3-1/2 now, got most of what I need to finish it but try to stay focused on "this rivet, here and now". It's easy to get overwhelmed by trying to see the "Big Picture". Not good for productivity although to some extent you do need to plan ahead. Now that I'm done rambling(and having given GMCJetPilot George some competition in longevity) I can only hope this helps. Good luck.
 
Can't believe nobody suggested this yet...but here's something to try... Go get a ride!!! Sometimes that's all it takes to light a fire under an otherwise stalled builder. I'm sure you've flown RVs before since you've been around them for so long. But if you haven't flown one recently, gotta fix that. Go up and poke a hole in the sky with somebody who'll let you do most of the flying. You never know what kind of wonders it'll work with your motivation.
 
I can sympathize...

In my case, I was getting frustrated by the weather... I've need to prime and whenever I had time rain or snow started falling. I actually decided I was going to risk the rain one day, got everything set up, and the wind started blowing dropplets of water in from who knows where... very frustrating, and it has being going on for seven weeks now.

I finally decided to dust off my old Yamaha 1100 and actually get a California motorcycle license (by taking the CA MSF-equvalent safety training)... plus buy a new helmet and other modern safety gear... it is a bit of a distraction from building... but that's part of the point really. Once the weather clears up to where it is fun to work outside again (a few weeks...though weather in SoCal has been strange these last few years...last year it actually sorta-snowed in May...), I'll pick up where I left off on the plane...and I'll have a summer ride that might get me home from work earlier so I can spend more time building.

If you are having technical problems, find someone to help you break out of the rut. If the whole project is looking bigger and bigger... finish something... if you can't finish something on the plane (e.g. my inability to do the priming I need to do) finish something else. The endorphin rush will feed your desire to finish the whole plane.
 
I would suggest finding someone to help you build it. You could either pay someone or better yet, find someone who is very interested in building an airplane to help and keep you motovitated. If I had to build an RV-10 by myself I would have quit many times but I have had a freind build it with me the whole time. Some days I am burned out and some days he would be but our energy together was enough on those days to work through it and get to the great days. Most days are great and I love the building process.
Plus you can build 4 times faster with two people than you can by yourself. But it has to be the right person that fits your personality.

I also like the previous suggestions of going to Sun N Fun, Oshkosh, local airshows, EAA chapter meetings, or just go rent a plane for an afternoon and have fun.

It will all be worth it. I remember an older fellow in Houston telling me that if you touch you plane everyday someday you will be flying.
 
dan said:
Can't believe nobody suggested this yet...but here's something to try... Go get a ride!!! Sometimes that's all it takes to light a fire under an otherwise stalled builder.
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Wow...how true that is.

Kahuna has given me more rides in his -6A (now sold) and his -8 than I can count. I'm going along to Sun-n-fun with him this year. I went last year with him in his -6A. He introduced me to RVs and has kept me motivated and on track. Flies over my house on occasion, laying smoke and wagging his wings at my wife and I (and keeping it mostly vertical...erhh...I mean level). Can't say enough nice things about the guy.

Everybody needs a Kahuna at their airport to keep them motivated. You just need to go to your local sporting goods store and purchase some of those rib protectors that boxers wear if you're building a trike. :)
 
dan said:
Can't believe nobody suggested this yet...but here's something to try... Go get a ride!!! Sometimes that's all it takes to light a fire under an otherwise stalled builder. I'm sure you've flown RVs before since you've been around them for so long. But if you haven't flown one recently, gotta fix that. Go up and poke a hole in the sky with somebody who'll let you do most of the flying. You never know what kind of wonders it'll work with your motivation.
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And if the ride really toots your horn, I suggest selling the Glastar then you'll have much more time & money to build then fly your RV ;) Rosie
 
Great point!

dan said:
Can't believe nobody suggested this yet...but here's something to try... Go get a ride!!! Sometimes that's all it takes to light a fire under an otherwise stalled builder. I'm sure you've flown RVs before since you've been around them for so long. But if you haven't flown one recently, gotta fix that. Go up and poke a hole in the sky with somebody who'll let you do most of the flying. You never know what kind of wonders it'll work with your motivation.
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What an "Aha!" moment! I hadn't thought of that. 'Course I'm still building so I don't have unlimited access to an RV(like some people I know!) I do have a '59 C172 that I fly every weekend possible and that IS a great source of motivation. Especially when I'm planning a cross-country trip at a SCORCHING 95 knots TAS!
 
flymustangs said:
I'm "working" on an RV-3 and have once again become disenchanted with the project. This is not my first attempt at an RV, I've worked on an RV-4 and an RV-8 in the past. It happened much quicker with the RV-3 and I think that is mostly because of the plans. Yes, many people have successfully completed these. Maybe their tolerance for frustration is higher than mine.
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Ken (and other potential builders who might be lurking), here's the unvarnished truth about building airplanes as far as I'm concerned...

Simply put, building an airplane, any airplane, is not for everyone. And whether you are or not does NOT make you any lesser person, just different. (some might say the builders are the strange ones) Building an airplane is a long term project that I think requires tremendous self-discipline and dedication over an extended period of time -- years in fact. Anyone contemplating building an airplane should look at themselves objectively in this regard. Shorter term projects such as re-doing the interior on a certified plane, building r/c airplanes, or restoring a motorcycle might be a better fit for some folks due to the shorter time frame and clearer path.

I am now building my second RV and let me make a confession... while building my first plane, an RV-8 (slow build), I became discouraged and considered quitting several times. In fact even building my second plane now I ride the emotional roller coaster. I'll go for several months and be highly motivated and very focused and make significant progress. Then I'll get burned out and get discouraged and can barely force myself to go out there and do anything. I've learned that that's when it's smart to just take a break. Sometimes it's just overnight, sometimes it's a couple of days, and sometimes it means taking a month or two off. We are all different in this regard, you just need to figure out what's the right pattern for you and how long you can maintain your focus. Ken, your comment about "tolerance for frustration" is very apt, but you really made it hard on yourself by taking on an RV-3 without previous RV experience.

Having built an RV-8 and now an RV-3B (not complete yet) I can say unequivacolly that no one should attempt an RV-3 unless you've built an RV before. The only exception is if you have ready access to a previous RV builder who can guide you out of the woods when you run into the enevitable dead ends. Frankly the reason why is NOT the lack of prepunching or fewer manufactured parts, it's the lack of information. If you didn't know how an RV went together in a general way you'd simply be at a dead end LOTS of times. Yes, occasionally there are mistakes in the plans or manual, but they have all been easy to spot if you know "the path". What really makes it difficult is information that simply isn't there. The RV-3 drawings and manual just don't have as much info, for example there are no 3D (isometric?) views at all. This leaves you scratching your head trying to figure out how various subassemblies or parts go together. Quite frankly the biggest challenge is mental, and some nights I'm just not up to it so I either do some mindless task like deburring or dimpling, or just knock it off until my brain will engage again. Yes the RV-3 is more work physically with all the skin trimming and such but that's not the insurmountable part.

So Ken, you really made it hard on yourself by biting into an RV-3 as your first project, but consider the big picture also and what suits you as a person. For those considering building I've tried to make some real world comments on my experience building my first plane on my RV-8 site which can be found here. Taking an airplane construction project on requires changes to your lifestyle, no way around it. You'd be well advised to think it through carefully.

Don't get me wrong, building my RV-8 was probably the most satisfying accomplishment of my life. But if I couldn't have finished it then it might have turned into one of the most frustrating experiences of my life, and there were times that's what I thought was going to happen. I believe we each ought to set goals for ourselves that stretch us, but that are ultimately achievable, and we each need to be realistic about what those goals are.

Sorry for the rant, but I thought this dose of reality might help those considering diving in.
 
Randy,

Your "rant" so perfectly expressed my feelings towards my project over these years that it was like reading my own thoughts. It felt nice to be reminded that I'm not the only one who goes through these ups and downs. Thanks.
 
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Maybe You Need a Historical Record

After reading all of the preceeding stories and doing some thinking about your situation a thought entered my mind that perhaps you are getting lost in a sense of getting nowhere with your projects. Since you have worked on an RV-4, RV-8 and are working on an RV-3, you apparently have a recurring desire to have an RV. Since you went out and bought a GlaStar that you are now flying, and are the president of an EAA Chapter money nor the lack of ability to fly nor contact with others of similar interests appear to be factors in defeating your motivation. Here is my thought - building an airplane is a very long term project and if you don't have a detailed record of what you have done it would be very easy to develop a feeling that you are working and giving up a lot of pleasures in your limited life but you are not going anywhere with the thing that you are making all of these sacrifices for. Under these conditions discipline is difficult to maintain.

When I started my project I bought a 300 page bound "Record" book with a margin on the left side of each page. Every time I worked on the plane I made an entry in the record book. After every entry I made a line across the page isolating it from all following entries. Every entry complies with a format that contains essential data and a narative signed off by me. Every time I went to work on the project (even for a minute) the first requirement was to enter the date in the left margin and the start time in the writing field of the page. Then I was "clocked in" and free to work. At various times during the work session I would take photographs, note significant work items, questions, decisions and even current events like who just won the Super Bowl, etc. but Always I would close the entry at the end of the work session. Each completed entry would contain these essential data, the stop time, the session work time rounded to the nearest tenth of an hour, the cummulative work time for the project, the number of photographs taken, a work description and my signature. The work session time, the cum project time and the number of photographs take were always entered in the left margin. Thus, I gave myself credit for every 6 minute increment of time I spent on the project and every accomplishment was recorded.

When the film was processed I went back to the log and entered the date each photograph was taken on the back of the photograph with a black "Sharpie" and inserted them in an expandable photo album. The album is currently 7.5" thick and weighs approximately 20 pounds.

There was never a question in my mind that I was building an airplane. Sometimes it is the process that keeps you going and not the final product.

Bob Axsom
 
rv

before i did decision about what rv i can build i was studying plans for about 8 months i find too many thinks that are not correct or are not in there ,when the empenage kit arrives (rv-3) i didnot follow the plans ,before that i had time to make some template or jigs to make the work easyier ,so after i get the kit i first used all my jigs and fabricate all the parts in like 9 hours (hinge,trim all spars,vs-307,hs-308 lay and trim all skins for elevators rudder etc) so i had all parts ready to start put together i did not use any shears all im using is small router bid , its cuts like butter fast and simple no yaky or scrachy or whatever edges, corners, nice and clean cut ,what was the bigest waste time is deburre and smothed all edges but it had to be done properly ,since im building my plane in my friend (instructors) hanger and pay rent that make me stay on project ,i finished my empenage in about 110 hours total no single punche hole ,one more think why i chose rv-3 ,i cannot afford more expensive plane and im cabinet maker ,that mean every day im building from scrach so i was not afraid pick this one good luck all of you and stay on working your plane
 
Thanks!

I want to thank everyone for the feedback here and offline. It?s been a tremendous help. I think I?m past it now and hopefully have some tools to get past it the next time it happens without having to bug all of you. I would really love to follow the suggestion of going to Sun n Fun, but it?s just not possible this year.

I did have a couple of very productive building sessions the past couple of days. I?ve also acquired (picking it up today) a well-proven fuselage jig from a local builder. There is a break in the weather today so I might be able to go get a flying fix in my ?Star.

Thanks again!
 
One more item that comes to mind as I near completion ("near" is a relative term) of my ultra-slow-build 4. I can say without a doubt that if I ever do it again (doubtful) that I could do it WAAAAY faster. There are just so many "gotchas" on the 4's and 3's that you end up doing a lot of stuff twice and spend hours puzzling over vague instructions/plans. That being said, if you can find a recent builder to get involved in your project I think it could damned near cut the build time in half. Also, build duplicate structures at the same time. The wings take a long time and are quite repetitive, but the second one goes much, much faster. Having an experienced builder on the job and doing em both at once would make a huge difference. Same goes for flaps, ailerons, elevators, etc.

How bout this: A category on this list called "Gotchas". It could be broken down by subassembly I suppose. Not so much tips, but stuff that in hindsight should've been done differently. Then, when somebody's getting ready to start on his trim tab for example, he could go to the trim tab section and see all the stuff to watch out for. This is coming from a guy who didn't even know about sites like this until the fuse kit. :D
 
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