M

mdredmond

Well Known Member
Hey Guys,

After a long break, I'm working on my plane again and I'm (maybe) having some issues with my dimpling.

I'm using a DRDT-2 and Cleaveland dies. I have the DRDT-2 set so I just barely register a ring around the dimples from the die. I think the dimples are too deep and not crisp enough. I'm afraid when I set the rivets the factory head is going to sit a little proud since the rivet set won't be in contact with the head when I'm driving (beacause the dimple is too deep). I hope that makes sense.

Edit: These are Cleaveland CAT 426-3 dies.

Any ideas?

The first pic is what I'm getting right now. The second is a practice piece I did at Oshkosh. The last two are the reason I haven't worked on my plane in 2 years.

DSC_013311230001.JPG


DSC_013411250001.JPG


DSC_017512070001.JPG


DSC_013511270001.JPG
 
Last edited:
check your dies carefully...

check your dies carefully... the first pictures look like a -4 dimple with a -3 rivet... (possibly a -3T tank dimple)
 
Thanks for your reply. I'm glad you see something is wrong...

My dies are from Cleaveland and both male and female are marked: CAT 426-3.

When I bought them a few years ago, everyone seemed to think they were the shiznat. I can't figure out what's wrong...

I just tried something...

I have a Vise-Grip 3/32" dimpler from Avery (which seems to make decent dimples). I tried to match the Cleaveland dies to it and the Cleaveland male won't fit the Avery female - the pilot goes in but the conical portion won't. The female Cleaveland die will accept the male Avery, but there is some obvious slop.

The bottom line is that the Cleaveland dies are clearly larger than the Avery. Why would that be?
 
Last edited:
Okay... That seems fairly obvious now.

Any idea why dies from a very well respected source would do this? I haven't heard anyone else complaining...
 
Matt,
The Cleaveland dies appear to be mislabled. They are 1/8 (#30) dies for -4 rivets. Keep them for the 426-4's and get you some 3/32 (#40) dies for the -3's. While you're at it go ahead and get a set for #6 and #8 screws as you will need all them eventually.

PS - the dies from Cleaveland are fine (mine are from them and I've had no issues), but Avery or the Yard Store are good sources as well.
 
The dimples do look a little to deep in the top picture, though not so much in the second picture. However, you make no mention about having trouble setting the shop head. If, in fact, the dimple dies you have are for 1/8" rivets, it would be pretty much impossible to set a good shophead on a 3/32 rivet with all the slop that would exist.

Before you do anything, though, check with Cleaveland, perhaps by sending them the top picture. I can guarantee you that if there is anything wrong with the dies or the labeling on it that they will have another set to you, probably for free, in the next day's mail. They are fantastic to work with and, while the 2-3 big tool suppliers have great reputations, Cleaveland, is known especially for the unequaled quality of their dimple dies.

Good luck getting back into the building.
 
Todd & Steve -

Thanks for your replies. I agree, I need to talk to Cleaveland.

The only thing is...

I have a whole set of their dies and included in there are some -4 dies that look obviously larger than these -3 dies.

So I'm thinking that rather than mislabeled, these are just ground wrong. I'll take a pic of the whole set and post it.

>>>although you make no mention about having trouble setting the shop head<<<

Steve - I haven't tried to. I'm just dimpling now - not riveting yet.
 
Last edited:
Matt,
Sorry you are running into these issues. I'd call Cleaveland on Monday and see what they think. They're good people and will help you out. In the meantime, you can figure out what you have by drilling a #40, a #30, a #27 (for #6 screw), and a #19 (for #8 screw) hole. Try the male dies in the holes and that will tell you the sizes you have. Mark them accordingly and press. If they are making good dimples I wouldn't replace them.
 
Okey, here's what I've got - left to right in the first pic below:

CAT 426-3
CAT 426-4
CAT 509-6
CAT 509-8

Interestingly, both the -3 and -4 dies seem to work okay on the thicker stock I used at Oshkosh (second picture). Those dimples look pretty good to me.

It's the thinner skin of my H-Stab that's not doing so well...

DSC_018020420001.JPG


DSC_018120430002.JPG
 
You can't over dimple with the drdt. You said you set it up to just make the circle mark, I dont think that is how the directions say to set it up. You want to put as much pressure on the dies as is mechanicaly available. Unlike a hammer where you can smash it too much, the C frame of the drdt just starts flexing if your overdoing it. I think the directions talk about setting the lever arm so it bottoms out then you just start flexing the frame as the lever goes over center. With all that said, I don't think the drdt makes as crisp of a dimple as a hammer and c frame. Not much difference, but side by side (using the same set of dies) I did notice a slight difference.
 
Matt,
Just went down to the shop and ran some tests. First, the reason the male Cleaveand die probably didn't fit into the female die on your vice grips is the pilot bottomed out before the cone engaged. Second, it occured to me that from your top picuture that you properly drilled #40 holes for a 3/32 rivet before you dimpled. If you had drilled #30 it would have been real obvious and as some mentioned, doubtful you could set the rivet flush as your picture shows they are. If so, then these dies are in fact 3/32 and not 1/8 as I previously speculated. At OSH, how did you dimple the holes in the bottom pic? If you used a C-frame and hammer, I believe you get a different dimple than with you get with the DRDT (I use the DRDT myself and wouldn't think about using a regular c-frame). Try adjusting the DRDT so that they dies just barely kiss togther when the lever is pulled without any sheet metal between them.
 
Matt,
Just saw you last pics and took another look at your first post. I think your dimples are fine. Keep on building!
 
I agree with others : I don't think the dies have a problem.

Put the dies in a squeezer and compare with the DRDT-2. I've had great results with the DRDT-2 when adding a bit of "pre-load". Take a scrap piece and drill 5 #40 holes in it. Then try a couple of adjustments : the dies just toutching, then a bit longer (unscrew the die holder a bit), then a big longer again.

You'll see that without "pre-load", the dimple will be there but the skin around the hole won't spring back down where it should. That's probably the problem here.

Try it out.
 
Slight topic shift, but relevant

In Matt's second photo, to the right of the circled rivet, there are witness marks on the skin to the right of the next rivet heads.

What is causing that?

Guess why I am asking....
 
RBR said:
In Matt's second photo, to the right of the circled rivet, there are witness marks on the skin to the right of the next rivet heads. What is causing that? Guess why I am asking....
Click to expand...

Um, no idea. That was a practice piece from OSH and what caused it is my incompetence. That and the fact we were shooting rivets at 40 PSI and it took a full 15-20 seconds to set each rivet.
 
Hello Matt

Have a look here: http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=35820

I replaced all my dimple dies after that, the dimension where out of spec. I had to rebuild all the centerfuselage, because of the cracks!

You cannot go to close togehter unless you use a huge press or very big mallet!

If you go to less, the dimple forming is not finished, this is the reason to go a bit "over" it, so that you see the very fine circles around.

Regards, Dominik
 
Cleanup!

Hello Matt

You should clean up your PM-Folder!!!

I send you something that bounced back.

Regards, Dominik
 
Guys - I've got plenty of pre-load - I can make the DRDT frame flex a little. I just got off the phone with Cleaveland and DJ is going to send me some new dies to try out. It's possible but unlikely that the dies I have are mislabeled or that there was a problem when they were made.

VERY nice & helpful folks at Cleaveland - on par with Bob Avery. I'll have to figure out how to split my budget between the two of them.
 
Alright, let us know what the end-result is.

I agree with you for Cleaveland, all I got was great support from them. Same for Avery.
 
I would NEVER look at a magnified photo of sheetmetal and make any conclusions. NOTHING beats just using your fingers and not your eyes. As long as the the head is flush with the skin +/- a few thousandths, I say get to work. Looking at the pictures more closely your dimples look pretty normal. Don't sweat the small stuff. This project will drive you crazy if you do. If you drill a 40 hole the 3/32 die fits and NO others will. Once you get rolling I think you'll get a feel for the dimpler and it'll be fine. I use a simple frame style dimpler and a few other trick tools for the hard to reach holes. I probably checked 2 holes closely in my entire project so far. They all look and feel good, that's all that matters.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.