bigbill25

bigbill25

Well Known Member
It was a good morning. I took the morning off work, drove to 7S3, rented a C-150, and flew to UAO to take a demo flight in the RV-12.

First, some background on me. I'm a newer pilot with only 84 hours in the log book. Almost all of my time has been in a Cesna 150. I have a few hours in the Cherokee 180, but not much. Some ex-fighter jock, I'm not (no matter how hard I dream). When you hear my opinion, they come from this background.

Oregon was being unkind to me. Last night was virtually clear. This morning, broken ceiling right around 2000 feet MSL. Enough to get around, but defiantly kept things close to the ground. Winds were fairly light, with UAO reporting about 4 knots out of the South when I listened to the ASOS before arrival.

Apon landing, I taxied over to the Van's facility and parked next to a couple -6s and a -10. Not a bad way to commute if you can do it! Walked into the office and Joe Blank was quickly found and came and got me. As we walked to the hanger, he asked about my background (see above) and what I was wanting to do (RV-12 project in a partnership with 3 or 4 other people). In to the hanger and to the plane.


The RV-12 in Sunny Oregon

We talked about a lot of specifics about the -12: speed of building, flying qualities, ease of transition, and so on. He then let me get in and test out the left seat while on the ground. This was one of my main concerns as I am a 6'3" guy and didn't know if I would fit. I'm happy to report that I do fit in a -12. With the stock full-sized seat cushion, I have a couple inches between my head and the canopy without a headset on. I think I'll find slightly slimmer cushions on my project, but didn't have any trouble durring the demo flight. The seats where very comfortable. In fact, the -12 was way more comfortable than the C-150, and I would say even had a bit more leg room than the Cherokee. That impressed me. I've read reviews from others saying the panel was a bit to far forward for them to reach everything. Not for me. I could easily open the map box from the left seat. I might not be able to get something from the back of the box, but I could open it.


The wood-composite ground adjustable prop. This is what we'll get.

Joe did a full pre-flight, and this included the "burping" of the Rotax. I've heard about it, but it was the first time I've seen it. To get a read on the oil, you have to do about 20 half-turns of the prop. When it happens, you will hear this "Drain-o" sound and, voila, you can check the oil. This reminded me of the crew running the prop through on a B-17. Interesting that this needs to be done on a modern engine.



The Fuel Tank Sight Window (note: picture taken post-flight)

The fuel was two-thirds full as seen from the sight glass. I did a quick look back there and didn't see the "crazing" issue, but it's hard to get a close look. I asked what they've been feeding her, and the answer is all Mogas. They have a few 5-gallon jugs the go fill up at the local gas stations (UAO doesn't have Mogas on field). Oregon is all E10, so it's been burning that. Joe thought that it had about 200 hours on her.

Please head to Part II: The Flight

--Bill
 
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My impressions

As one of the potential partners that Bill mentioned, I also went for a demo flight in N412RV earlier this week. Similar to Bill, most of my time is in 150/152's, plus a little in 172's and Cherokee 140's. Total time in the logbook is 151.5 hrs. The crazy part is that I'm considering shelving my 7a project to get a -12 in the air faster with 2-3 other guys for about half the price of just my IO360.

I'm 6'2" and also had the same concerns about headroom and legroom. On closing the canopy, it felt a bit close with the shade closed, but once airborne I didn't even notice. That said, in turbulence it could lead to a bump on the head. My biggest "fit" issue was my size 14 feet. I'll definitely have to wear narrower shoes because I kept pushing on the weldment instead of the toe brakes during taxi.

I'll leave the picts and video to Bill since he's got the good camera and talent, but here are my flying impressions, based on the limited experience above.

We were airborne in about 400 ft, climbing at 900-1000 fpm. We departed the pattern a UAO and leveled out to cruise at about 2K'. Leveling out, the site picture felt odd because we appeared to be in a nose-down attitude. At about 110 kia, the light chop was definitely noticeable compared to a 152, but it felt very stable. The electric trim was very sensitive, requiring just quick bumps. Steep turns were feet on the floor, and it kept wanted to climb, even at 45*. With full flaps (20*), it stalled at 38 kia, with just the slightest drop to the left, easily corrected with rudder, and recovered with a release of back pressure on the stick. Loops and rolls were non-events (because they aren't allowed ;))

The oddest part of flying behind the Rotax is the spring-loaded throttle that constantly wants to go to max, requiring judicious use of the friction lock. On a couple of occasions as we headed back toward the airport, I failed to tighten it and heard the engine speed increase unexpectedly. I'm sure I'd get used to it, but hopefully it will be an easy (and acceptable) mod to change that.

Joe took back the airplane once we were in the pattern, but the landing seemed straightforward. He said it has a tendency to float, but we still made the first turnout. While I still look forward to the speed and aerobatic capability of my 7a, getting a 12 in the air in a partnership is a great option for a 30-something looking to fly cheap! Now I just have to convince my wife that building another airplane before finishing the first is a good idea :)
 
Ground Adjustable Prop?

Have they changed their mind on the prop? Nice writeup. Thanks. Awaiting Part II.
 
Thanks for the memories ...

Bill ... thanks so much for the report, pictures & videos. I hope we do get a ground adjustable prop.

Took me a while to figure out that we have to click on one of the above pictures to get to your slide show presentation. Great pics and vids.

Jerry
 
Part II: The Flight



Joe strapping up the 5-point harness

Joe took the left seat for the flight. The start-up procedure was quite easy. A couple switches on the panel (the master and two ignition, I believe), pull the choke, then turn the switch. The motor was spinning right now. That was a nice change from the Connie in the 150. The temp gauge was reading 70 right at start-up. This needs to be at 120 before you advance the engine for a run-up.

Van's is at the South end of the field, and we were taking off on 17, so it was a long taxi to the other side. Joe let me taxi to the run-up area. This is the first time I have taxied a plane with RV-style rudder and differential braking control. We had a slight tailwind, so the rudder wasn't that effective and I had to ride the right brake a bit to keep us straight on the taxi-line. Not quite up the the extreme control of a Cherokee, but I would say as easy as the bungee-cord feeling of the 150.


Click to go to Take-Off Video Page

By the time we got to the run-up area, the temp gauge was almost at 120. The engine had been on for not-quite 10 minutes and the outside temp was in the low 60's. I can see where this will be an issue in colder weather. Joe said you can put something over the radiator to help out. When the Dynon finally removed the yellow box from the temp, we went through a run-up which was basically testing out both ignition systems.

Run-up complete, we scanned for traffic (very easy to do with the bubble canopy vs. a 150), made the radio call (Joe uses "Light Sport RV" so people don't think we're some kind of hopped-up RV-8) and took the runway. Joe said we'd be off the ground before the touchdown markers, advanced the throttle, and released the braked. The engine came up to speed very smoothly and we were on the roll. Joe was doing his best sales-guy duty and brought the nose up a bit quicker than he should have and the stall horn (which is headset only, so you won't hear it in the video) chirped for a second. This didn't bother the -12, however, and we were quickly off the ground.

On upwind, I noticed we were seeing 800-900 fpm on the VSI. In the 150 on the way over, I was happy with 400, and I was in that solo. We climied up pattern altitude and departed to the East. With the cloud deck where it was, we had to stay at about 1500 MSL. Ground elevation in the area is about 200 feet. This meant no stalls or other crazy items. Once we were out of the pattern area, Joe gave me the controls. In a word, it flew beautifully. The 150 isn't hard to fly, but it feels like you have to mush the controls to go here, mush them to go there, etc. In the -12, it just went. Before flying, I worried about the light control forces I read about in other reviews would make the plane a bit skittish. I shouldn't have worried. It was very easy to nail a heading or keep an altitude. Coming for the manual-trim world, I was worried about the electric trim. How would I know how much I'm putting in? Again, I should have worried. It trimmed up quick. Where the 150 would have to "settle" into its new setting, the -12 was just there. We did some shallow 360s and steep turns, and the -12 easily handled all of this. Adverse yaw was non-existent, and my feet stayed on the floor, as the ball stayed tight in the middle.

Now, the most impressive factor was visibility. I've never been in an RV, so this is my first time under a bubble canopy. Coming from the caves which are the 150 and Cherokee, this was a revelation. You just feel so much more free in the bubble! The small Rotax keeps the nose short and small so the forward view is excellent. With just a bit of a lean forward, I could look nearly straight down in front of the wing. It was great wonderful. Now, if it was a 100 degree day in blazing sun, I might have a different opinion, but it did have a shade that we didn't need on this cloudy day.


Click to go to Landing Video Page


Heading back to the airport, we entered the pattern on base. We were at traffic pattern altitude, but coming in on base we should have been a bit lower. This was good, as I heard that the -12 doesn't like to go down. Joe already had both notches of flap in when he took control turning to final. Noticing we were high, he put the right rudder pedal to the floor, and we came down pretty quick. I still think the 150 with all 40 degrees of flaps would come down a bit faster, but it was acceptable. RV-12 builders: make sure you are getting in slip practice.

The touchdown was smooth and as Joe kept the stick pulled back, the nose stayed up for some time, finally giving up after a good roll. This plane wants to fly. I got to to taxi back to Van's, and as we were into the wind, found it much easier, and I rarely had to touch a brake pedal.


The menacing RV-12...

Back at the factory, I grabbed my big camera and took some pictures. I had been asked for some close ups of the canopy, so I tried to do that. I never built a plane, so wasn't exactly sure what to look for. I got a few HDR pictures of the exterior, and was done.

Joe earlier had talked about showing me the 25 Rotax engines they had in stock, but we both forgot as we walked back to the office. He said the engines were getting tweaked at Van's so they would mount right on the -12. People thinking of getting your engines from somewhere else, beware.

In the office, Joe loaded me up with literature and I was off. This was a great way to blow 4 vacation hours! Can't wait to have my own -12...

To see all the pictures, follow this link.

--Bill
 
JerryG150 said:
Bill ... thanks so much for the report, pictures & videos. I hope we do get a ground adjustable prop.

Took me a while to figure out that we have to click on one of the above pictures to get to your slide show presentation. Great pics and vids.

Jerry
Click to expand...

Joe said that is the prop people will get. They were concerned about high elevation users, so you can put it in a more climb configuration. From what I understand, if you have the prop in cruise mode and add the wheel fairing option, it will cruise right the 120 knot LSA maximum. Without the wheel fairings it will cruise around 116-117.

Sorry about the pictures. I wanted to finish the full article last night, but couldn't, and there is now a "go here for pictures" link on Part II.

--Bill
 
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Links not working

Nice write-up, Bill, but the links to flickr aren't working for some reason.

Working now. May have been Firefox since its working on Safari.
 
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Other little things...

So, the AP74 module was in the panel, but they don't have the servos installed. I don't even think the AP74 was wired to the D180 because Joe was using the buttons to set the baro rather than the value knob.

As an aside: One of the nice things for the built-the-same RV-12 will be the AP. It seems that it has been taking other people a while to "dial-in" they Dynon AP system to their plane (see this thread). With the -12, once one of us gets it dialed in, we all will have it dialed in...

As for the kit release dates, Joe said the avionics kit "should be released in the next 30 days." Note that he said "should", so don't hold him to it :)

Ingress/Egress: I'm tall, so getting into the 150 is a PITA, especially if someone is already in the other seat. I found the -12 pretty easy to get in. Now I'm a fairly athletic guy and have no problem climbing over stuff, so YMMV. Egress was a shimmy the back/butt up the seat back and step out onto the wing. Not bad, but not quite as easy as the ingress.

--Bill
 
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Spindrift said:
The oddest part of flying behind the Rotax is the spring-loaded throttle that constantly wants to go to max, requiring judicious use of the friction lock. On a couple of occasions as we headed back toward the airport, I failed to tighten it and heard the engine speed increase unexpectedly. I'm sure I'd get used to it, but hopefully it will be an easy (and acceptable) mod to change that.
Click to expand...

I forgot to mention that, but agree. I don't understand why they have it this way. Does anyone know?

--Bill
 
Don't do it!

Spindrift said:
........
The oddest part of flying behind the Rotax is the spring-loaded throttle that constantly wants to go to max, requiring judicious use of the friction lock. On a couple of occasions as we headed back toward the airport, I failed to tighten it and heard the engine speed increase unexpectedly. I'm sure I'd get used to it, but hopefully it will be an easy (and acceptable) mod to change that.
Click to expand...

A friend of mine has a Zenith 701 with the same engine. A guy he knows modified the engine with lighter springs (from NAPA) on the carbs because he didn't like the tendency for the throttle to creep.

On the first flight, he came up short and needed some throttle so he pushed it forward but the light springs didn't overcome the linkage's friction and he landed in the trees...totalled on the maiden flight because of this "mod".

FYI...if you don't already know it, the Rotax has springs that open the throttles and a cable simply pulls against them to retard the power.

Regards,
 
pierre smith said:
A friend of mine has a Zenith 701 with the same engine. A guy he knows modified the engine with lighter springs (from NAPA) on the carbs because he didn't like the tendency for the throttle to creep.

On the first flight, he came up short and needed some throttle so he pushed it forward but the light springs didn't overcome the linkage's friction and he landed in the trees...totalled on the maiden flight because of this "mod".

FYI...if you don't already know it, the Rotax has springs that open the throttles and a cable simply pulls against them to retard the power.

Regards,
Click to expand...

Good to know!!! I guess we'll just get used to it!

--Bill
 
bigbill25 said:
It was a good morning. I took the morning off work, drove to 7S3, rented a C-150, and flew to UAO to take a demo flight in the RV-12.

First, some background on me. I'm a newer pilot with only 84 hours in the log book. Almost all of my time has been in a Cesna 150. I have a few hours in the Cherokee 180, but not much. Some ex-fighter jock, I'm not (no matter how hard I dream). When you hear my opinion, they come from this background.

Oregon was being unkind to me. Last night was virtually clear. This morning, broken ceiling right around 2000 feet MSL. Enough to get around, but defiantly kept things close to the ground. Winds were fairly light, with UAO reporting about 4 knots out of the South when I listened to the ASOS before arrival.

Apon landing, I taxied over to the Van's facility and parked next to a couple -6s and a -10. Not a bad way to commute if you can do it! Walked into the office and Joe Blank was quickly found and came and got me. As we walked to the hanger, he asked about my background (see above) and what I was wanting to do (RV-12 project in a partnership with 3 or 4 other people). In to the hanger and to the plane.


The RV-12 in Sunny Oregon

We talked about a lot of specifics about the -12: speed of building, flying qualities, ease of transition, and so on. He then let me get in and test out the left seat while on the ground. This was one of my main concerns as I am a 6'3" guy and didn't know if I would fit. I'm happy to report that I do fit in a -12. With the stock full-sized seat cushion, I have a couple inches between my head and the canopy without a headset on. I think I'll find slightly slimmer cushions on my project, but didn't have any trouble durring the demo flight. The seats where very comfortable. In fact, the -12 was way more comfortable than the C-150, and I would say even had a bit more leg room than the Cherokee. That impressed me. I've read reviews from others saying the panel was a bit to far forward for them to reach everything. Not for me. I could easily open the map box from the left seat. I might not be able to get something from the back of the box, but I could open it.


The wood-composite ground adjustable prop. This is what we'll get.

Joe did a full pre-flight, and this included the "burping" of the Rotax. I've heard about it, but it was the first time I've seen it. To get a read on the oil, you have to do about 20 half-turns of the prop. When it happens, you will hear this "Drain-o" sound and, voila, you can check the oil. This reminded me of the crew running the prop through on a B-17. Interesting that this needs to be done on a modern engine.



The Fuel Tank Sight Window (note: picture taken post-flight)

The fuel was two-thirds full as seen from the sight glass. I did a quick look back there and didn't see the "crazing" issue, but it's hard to get a close look. I asked what they've been feeding her, and the answer is all Mogas. They have a few 5-gallon jugs the go fill up at the local gas stations (UAO doesn't have Mogas on field). Oregon is all E10, so it's been burning that. Joe thought that it had about 200 hours on her.

Please head to Part II: The Flight

--Bill
Click to expand...
The burping of the Rotax is just to get all the oil out of the engine and into the external oil tank. The tank is where you check the oil level and is only a valid check if all the oil is back in the tank. It's not a big deal- you get used to it pretty quickly (just make DAM sure the ignition switches are off!) Also, don't forget to take the cap off the oil tank prior to pulling the prop through, or you won't be able to hear the "burp". The prop that we are going to get with the 12 is NOT ground adjustable! The blades, however, look the same (hollow composit). The hub IS different, and does not aollow for pitch changes. This info came from talking to the Sensenich guys at Sun n' Fun. Steve
 
bigbill25 said:
So, the AP74 module was in the panel, but they don't have the servos installed. I don't even think the AP74 was wired to the D180 because Joe was using the buttons to set the baro rather than the value knob.

--Bill
Click to expand...

Actually, the autopilot is fully installed and functional.
 
steve wyman said:
The burping of the Rotax is just to get all the oil out of the engine and into the external oil tank. The tank is where you check the oil level and is only a valid check if all the oil is back in the tank. It's not a big deal- you get used to it pretty quickly (just make DAM sure the ignition switches are off!) Also, don't forget to take the cap off the oil tank prior to pulling the prop through, or you won't be able to hear the "burp". The prop that we are going to get with the 12 is NOT ground adjustable! The blades, however, look the same (hollow composit). The hub IS different, and does not aollow for pitch changes. This info came from talking to the Sensenich guys at Sun n' Fun. Steve
Click to expand...

rvbuilder2002 said:
Actually, the autopilot is fully installed and functional.
Click to expand...

Looks like there are a couple of follow up questions to hit the Van's people with tomorrow at the NW RV fly-in. Joe told me it would be a ground adjustable prob and that the AP wasn't installed... I'm just reporting what I heard!

--Bill
 
steve wyman said:
The burping of the Rotax is just to get all the oil out of the engine and into the external oil tank. The tank is where you check the oil level and is only a valid check if all the oil is back in the tank. It's not a big deal- you get used to it pretty quickly (just make DAM sure the ignition switches are off!) Also, don't forget to take the cap off the oil tank prior to pulling the prop through, or you won't be able to hear the "burp". The prop that we are going to get with the 12 is NOT ground adjustable! The blades, however, look the same (hollow composit). The hub IS different, and does not aollow for pitch changes. This info came from talking to the Sensenich guys at Sun n' Fun. Steve
Click to expand...

Not true (though that may have been the understanding who ever you talked to had)

It is ground adjustable with a specific limit to the adjustment range that will allow for max. cruse speed or a slight reduction in pitch if someone wants improved climb performance (with a slight sacrifice in cruise) if they are based out of a higher elevation airport, etc.
 
Rotax "tweak"

Anyone have any idea what this is about? From someone who has a Rotax in the garage.

Cheers...Keith

Joe earlier had talked about showing me the 25 Rotax engines they had in stock, but we both forgot as we walked back to the office. He said the engines were getting tweaked at Van's so they would mount right on the -12. People thinking of getting your engines from somewhere else, beware.
 
gblwy said:
Anyone have any idea what this is about? From someone who has a Rotax in the garage.

Cheers...Keith

Joe earlier had talked about showing me the 25 Rotax engines they had in stock, but we both forgot as we walked back to the office. He said the engines were getting tweaked at Van's so they would mount right on the -12. People thinking of getting your engines from somewhere else, beware.
Click to expand...
What usually has to happen is the position of the coolant outlet on the lower rear of the engine has to be adjusted for the particular airplane application. On my RANS, I had to do this myself- no big deal. Steve
 
Nicely done BigBill, a fun read!

I got used to checking the oil in a Rotax 912 AFTER done flying. All / most of the oil is in the tank that way, and you don't have to burp it on start up. I would just crank the engine a few seconds with mags off to prime the engine. This would pump the oil in the res., then flip the mags on and Prrrr! If I remember right, the Rotax 912 burns no oil in between oil changes, and this is normal for this engine.
 
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Geico266 said:
Nicely done BigBill, a fun read!

I got used to checking the oil in a Rotax 912 AFTER done flying. All / most of the oil is in the tank that way, and you don't have to burp it on start up. I would just chank the engine a few seconds with mags off to prime the engine. This would pump the oil in the res., then flip the mags on and Prrrr! If I remember right, the Rotax 912 burns no oil in between oil changes, and this is normal for this engine.
Click to expand...
Larry- That's exactly what I do with the Rotax on my RANS S-7. I check the oil level after each flight. One, you supposedly get a more accurate reading ( warm oil, I suppose), and, two, it doesn't take nearly as many rotations of the propellor to get it to "burp". Usually, about two revolutions is all it takes. Larry is right about the oil consumption- there simply isn't any! Steve
 
Larry/Steve,

That's a good idea on the post-flight oil check. However, we will be doing this plane in a partnership. While I'm sure my partners will check the oil level after every flight if we put it on the check list, I will have to channel my inner Ronald Regan with "Trust, but verify".

--Bill
 
Another little little chunk I forgot to put out there: As we were straight and level heading East, I looked over at the Dynon and it showed our fuel flow to be 3.5 GPH. That's just awesome...

--Bill
 
bigbill25 said:
Another little little chunk I forgot to put out there: As we were straight and level heading East, I looked over at the Dynon and it showed our fuel flow to be 3.5 GPH. That's just awesome...

--Bill
Click to expand...

...and that is 3.5GPH of mogas! That's over 5 hours of flying in the -12. :eek: That should make algore smile!
 
Great post BigBill. You give me inspiration to help push through those "boring" jobs. Cant wait to get flying.
 
bigbill25 said:
I forgot to mention that, but agree. I don't understand why they have it this way. Does anyone know?

--Bill
Click to expand...

The idea is that if the throttle cable breaks, the throttles will go to full throttle rather than idle, which is basically the same as an engine out. So you can still make it, tho at full tilt, to a suitable landing spot.

The real horror of this, tho, is if it happens on the ground at the airport... with other planes and who knows what else in front of you......

I personally think it's a terrible/terrifying idea and if it weren't major surgery to set mine on my 912ULS the other way, I'd do it....

I just keep my eye very closely on the condition of my throttle cable and try to keep the way to the kill switch clear all the time when taxiing....

LS
 
lucien said:
The idea is that if the throttle cable breaks, the throttles will go to full throttle rather than idle, which is basically the same as an engine out.

The real horror of this, tho, is if it happens on the ground at the airport... with other planes and who knows what else in front of you......
Click to expand...

On the ground, why can't you step on the brakes then kill the engine with the mixture?

I'd rather have the engine go to full throttle instead of idling if the cable breaks. Once you get near the airport, you can kill the engine with the mixture and land.
 
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On the SeaRey they set up their Rotaxes with the springs pulling the throttle closed. The reason? They have seen the springs break fairly commonly, but never the throttle cables.
 
bigbill25 said:
No mixture on the Rotax 912, but yes, you could hit the brakes and then flip the ignition switches off.

--Bill
Click to expand...

On my plane, the full throttle thrust easily overcomes the brakes (Matco hydraulics) so there's a good chance I could hit something really expensive or worse before getting to the ignition switch.

I did get to see an installation up close this weekend where it was reversed - the throttle cable housing comes in vertically in the threaded hole that normally holds the bracket for the cable as it attaches to the throttle arm. The throttle arm is replaced with a smaller one that lines up with the new vertical-going throttle cable and the spring is attached underneath.

If I ever install another 912, that's how I'll do it for sure.....

LS
 
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