[HURMANAV8R]

I am having quite the crisis when deciding which model to build, so I have come to ya?ll (sorry I am a Southerner) for help in this decision making process.
I had initially decided to build a ?Super?8. But ? in my research and talking with a lot of people that know what they are talking about I pulled back on that decision..
Why, I plan on taking it to Reno and competing in the Sportsman Class. The 8, even with the 540 and fastback would not give me the speed I needed.
So I started looking at the Harmon Rockets, both the Rocket 2 and Rocket 3. But here?s where the decision point is causing me angst.
Everyone and I mean everyone I have talked to tells me that the RV 4 is a much harder kit to build. The lack of pre drilled parts makes it a much more difficult build.
Second, I am a big guy, they don?t make small Scottish rugby players. So this too is a issue, the same people tell me that the 8 is a larger cockpit, even larger than a Rocket.
So please give me your opinion, please help me make this decision, I would really like your input?

 

[flytoboat]

Losing sleep?

In your dreams, which model is in your hangar when you open that hangar door? There's your answer...

 

[wrongway john]

The 4 is more time consuming since it is not a quick build kit. 4 kits at least do have pre-drilled wing skins now, which will save some time.

Seems like I read that pilots (250 lbs and up) opt for the 8. The fastback version of the 4 and Todd?s canopy, I believe from what I have been reading, is going to have more cockpit room, but I think that will mostly, if not all be for the passenger. The Rocket guys certainly do make the fuselage wider, but how it compares to the 8 fuselage width I do not do. I'm sure the right search engine inquiries would have that info.

 

[pierre smith]

Welcome to VAF, Michael..

If you're very, very serious about racing in the Sportsman class at Reno, you need to consider a Lancair, since no Rocket or Super 8 will run with the big dogs.

On the other hand, if being competitive doesn't matter as much as just racing at Reno, it's a different story. There may even be a minimum cutoff speed that you have to run to even enter....someone else, Like Ross, may chime in about that.

Best,

 

[f1rocket]

If you're a big guy, you can shoe horn into a -4 but you may not be happy with that. Find a local airplane and ask the owner if you can sit in it to find out. If no, then your choice is between a -8 or a Rocket. A Harmon is a -4 basically so it's the same space issue. The -8 is wider than the -4 but the F1 Rocket is slightly wider than the -8. You can stick a 540 in an -8, been done several times, but I personally would not do it because it is too easy to get past Vne. That leaves the F1, which isn't in production but can be found for sale.

Sounds like none are a perfect fit. I agree with Pierre on Reno. None of these are going to make you competitive so once you understand what's important, your choice may get simpler.

 

[smokyray]

Two's in!

Hi Mike,

Good chatting with you the other day. Yep, all above observations are accurate. Having built an RV-4 and re-built an HR2 I can assure you the road is curvy and full of holes (that you have to drill). Also as you know, racing at Reno is expensive, very expensive. Just ask your insurance agent. That's why John, Dave Anders and others haven't gone back.

My advice hasn't changed. In the current marketplace you can buy cheaper than you can build. Fastest airplane you can afford(and fit in)? Without a doubt, the HR2, Lancair or Glasair 3. The HR2 cockpit is slightly wider than the Eight with more room between you and the instrument panel. It is much larger than the 4, that's why John designed it in the first place. The F-1 and HR2 cockpits are nearly identical. The SX-300 (not many around) is faster but more expensive. There is a nice one for sale in TAP right now.

To be competitive in the new sport class you need to be able to race at 230+ knots. Dave Anders IO-360 powered RV4 with all the amazing mods on the planet can do 220+. John's/now Jeff's HR3 is faster but there aren't many out there (2). So, back to square one. Me? I would buy an HR2 right (5 for sale right now under 100K) and go to school on speed mods, fairings, cooling drag, props and Horsepower! Have fun flying it and never look back. Race at Reno? Buy (or build) a racer.

You could theoretically "soup up" an HR2 to go significantly faster than stock. Point is, do you want to? Van's original design VNE on the RV4 was 210 MPH. The Rocket VNE is 270 mph. At 250 MPH the wind noise over my canopy is deafening (try 800 KIAS in the F16 control inputs require a deft touch. For some interesting reading sometime try "Aeronautical Engineering and Flutter" or google flutter testing the Piper Comanche. To quote Jack Ridley (Engineer on the Bell X-1 project) "At those speeds there's a Demon out there, waiting to get you". Go faster? To what end?

Again, it's not an exact science. You tube is full of in-flight breakup videos at Reno. RV's are sport-planes, pure and simple, designed to be as such. The best racers were designed as such. Questions?

Here's a nice racer I'm sure you would fit in: http://vimeo.com/2745432

Smokey
HR2
www.maf.org

 

[N941WR]

Mike,

You bring up an interesting point regarding the work involved to build an HR2.

And Smokey Ray is correct, you can buy cheaper (and faster) than you can build.

If you really want to build, why not contact John Harmon and see if he has plans to Rocketize the RV-8? Maybe add and IO-720 on the front? Nothing like starting with 400 hp and upgrading from there, IMHO.

(All this from a guy who built a 135 hp RV-9.)

 

[longranger]

...A Harmon is a -4 basically so it's the same space issue...

Not exactly. The HRII front cockpit is 4 inches longer and 4 inches wider than that of an RV-4, which makes for quite a bit more room.

 

[Mike S]

I had initially decided to build a ?Super?8.

I want one too-----done way too much looking and dreaming about a Super 8 to let this thread pass by.

Second, I am a big guy, they don?t make small Scottish rugby players. So this too is a issue, the same people tell me that the 8 is a larger cockpit, even larger than a Rocket.
So please give me your opinion, please help me make this decision, I would really like your input?

O.K., I am also a "big guy"----not Scottish or a rugby player, but defiantly big.

The 4 just looks too tight, and I will not even attempt to get in one, which is hard to resist, seeing as the 4 is my favorite RV hands down.

I do fit in an 8---except for the side rails where the slider canopy mounts---they cut into my shoulders/upper arms.

The ShowPlanes fastback/tip over setup gives enough extra room in the shoulder area that I am comfortable in an 8 so equipped.

I highly recommend sitting in an 8 with the ShowPlanes conversion.

As far as the rocket goes, well they look wide enough, but I have never had a chance to get in one. But I have see Fred "Flintstone" get into and out of a Rocket, so if he can fit.........

Sorry Fred, forgot your actual last name, but that sure is a gorgeous plane!!! Had a good time talking to Fred, nice guy.

 

[smokyray]

Big Pax...

Mike,
One thing I forgot to mention, the overall cockpit of my HR2 is slightly longer and wider than both the standard and fastback RV8. It's very difficult to aft over-load. I took my 320 lb neighbor for a ride with no issues other than closing the canopy! The 540's rumble is very habit forming, like an old 351 Cleveland Mach One It's also surprisingly efficient, slightly lower fuel burn than my RV4 over an equal distance going 30 knots faster.

Smokey


PS:Nothing against the 8 but after flying one for 100 hours, I really missed my HR2, no comparison!

 

[JAT]

Fastest RV-8 in the US

Before you give up on the RV-8 check out this fantastic one: http://www.lazy8.net/ John Huft is not only selling the fastest around, but also one of the best constructed for less than you could build one for. Check it out!

Jim

 

[Bob Axsom]

Sport Air Racing League

You should checkout the Sport Air Racing League (SARL) at www.sportairrace.org. If you are interested in racing the organization sanctions over 10 races a year for a vast number of classes. I am leaving tomorrow to fly down to Taylor, Texas for the race there Saturday. If you could get there to observe the entries it should provide a lot of insight. Here are the current entries:

Race # Name Aircraft Class
Race 13 Robert Johnson North American T28B "Trojan" Unlimited
Race 210 Claude Hendrickson North American P-51D Mustang "Sarah Jean" Unlimited
Race 241 Dave White Evo Rocket "Happy Hour" Sport FX-T
Race DG1 Dick Gossen Glasair III Sport
Race 2 Alan Crawford Lancair Legacy "Spirit of America" Sport
Race 35 Mike Smith SX300 Sport
Race 66 Ernie Sutter Lancair Legacy "Jus Passin' Through" Sport
Race 74 Duncan Sutherland SX300 "Shadow" Sport
Race 89 Stan Musick SX300 Sport
Race GF George Fisher F1 Rocket "Midnight Mistress" Sport FX
Race 14 Wayne Hadath F1 Rocket "Little Bit" Sport FX
Race 22 Greg Nelson F1 Rocket "X-Ray" Sport FX
Race 43 Bob Mills RV-Super 6 "Rocket Six" Sport FX
Race 58 Mark Frederick EVO Rocket "Pesky!" Sport FX
Race 109 Tom Martin EVO Rocket "Evo One" Sport FX
Race 91 Bruce Hammer Glasair I TD "Red Dog" FX Blue
Race 911 Burrall Sanders Cozy III "Stinger" FX Blue
Race 96 Tim Hardage Tailwind W-10 FX Red
Race 117 Greg Bordelon Mustang II "Green Machine" FX Red
Race 18 John Huft RV-8 "Nuisance" RV Gold
Race 390 Jerry Hajek RV-8 RV Gold
Race 569 Nick Nafsinger RV-10 RV Gold
Race 888 Deene Ogden RV-8 "Kermit" RV Gold
Race 26 Mike Thompson RV-6 "El Lento" RV Blue
Race 57 Gary Wilcox RV-7 "Heinz 57" RV Blue
Race 71 Bob Axsom RV-6A "Blue Bird" RV Blue
Race 391 Jason Rovey RV-8 RV Blue
Race 483 Jim Hard RV-7A "Pegleg's Paintless Predator" RV Blue
Race 737 David Grover RV-8 RV Blue
Race B4U Seth Baker RV-7 RV Red
Race 08 Bryan Jones RV-8 RV Red
Race 83 Dave Adams Long EZ "Lawn Dart" Sprint
Race 84 Russell & Rhea Sherwood Glasair 1RG "Marilyn" Sprint
Race 795 Brett Gerber Long EZ Sprint
Race 66S Paul Bordelon Bonanza V-35B FAC1RG-T
Race 60 Jeffery Johnson Bonanza S35 FAC1RG
Race 193 Bobby Bennet Bonanza S35 FAC1RG
Race 729 Chester Jurskis Bonanza S35 "Trixie" FAC1RG
Race 997 Chris McKeown Bonanza G36 "Yertle" FAC1RG
Race 111 Jeff Bertsch Bonanza P35 "Beecha" FAC2RG
Race 77 Jim Huff Bonanza 35 "Whatabeech" FAC2RG
Race 76N Walter Kuhnel Mooney M20J FAC3RG
Race 448 Jim Porter Cirrus SR20 "Plane Jane" FAC3FX
Race 456 Ann Elise Bennett C-182 "X Ray" FAC3FX
Race YY Charlie Sisk C-182 FAC3FX
Race 55 Team Ely Grumman AA5A "Cheetah" FAC5
Race 80U Rich Caponigro C-150 FAC6
Race 308 Massimo Troiani Diamond DA20 "Dragonfly" FAC6

 

[Bob Axsom]

The speeds in competition

I have taken all of the results from the 4 years of SARL races and entered them into an Excel file and sorted them several way including speed regardless of race, plane, pilot or class and it provides some very hard evidence of relative speeds of Rockets, RV-8s, RV-4s and even factory airplanes. There are now well over 700 rows of data representing individual racing flights. Alan Carroll has done further analysis on the RVs in this group and shows the dominance of the RV-8 in the RV classes. Here are the first 100 ranked speeds since you are interested in the top end of performance:

Rank# Race Date Class Aircraft Type Pilot Speed Kts
1 AirVenture Cup 2010 7/26/10 Turbine Legend Abbott, Marty 348.54
2 AirVenture Cup 2010 7/26/10 Turbine Lancair IVP Bestgen, Walter 303.79
3 AirVenture Cup 2008 7/28/08 Unlimited Lancair IV Tackabury, Paul 302.84
4 AirVenture Cup 2010 7/26/10 Unlimited Lancair IV Tackabury, Paul/Pam 299.44
5 AirVenture Cup 2007 7/23/07 Unlimited Nemesis NXT Eldredge, Kevin 292.24
6 AirVenture Cup 2008 7/28/08 Sport Lancair Legacy Behel, Lee 291.02
7 AirVenture Cup 2008 7/28/08 Unlimited Nemesis NXT Eldredge, Kevin 287.99
8 AirVenture Cup 2010 7/26/10 Sport Lancair Legacy Behel, Lee 287.77
9 Grace Flight 2008 10/5/08 Twin 1-T Merlin III Goforth, Philip 285.96
10 Taylor 100 2009 3/16/09 Twin 1-T Merlin III Goforth, Phil 284.84
11 AirVenture Cup 2007 7/23/07 Sport Lancair Legacy Behel, Lee 278.95
12 AirVenture Cup 2010 7/26/10 Unlimited Lancair Legacy Patey, Mark 278.78
13 AirVenture Cup 2008 7/28/08 Sport SX-300 Hinckley, Harry 274.41
14 Pagosa Springs 2010 9/26/10 Unlimited Lancair Legacy Patey, Mark 272.84
15 AirVenture Cup 2008 7/28/08 RG-T Blue Polen Special II Keyt, Dick 272.22
16 AirVenture Cup 2010 7/26/10 Sport SX301 Hinckley, Harry 271.43
17 Texoma 100 4/25/10 Turbine Turbine Legend Dugas, Rene' 270.3
18 AirVenture Cup 2010 7/26/10 Turbine Legend Dugas, Rene 268.75
19 Grace Flight 2009 10/4/09 Turbine Lancair IVP Philips, Fred 268.45
20 Texoma 100, 2008 4/20/08 Turbine Turbine Legend Dugas, Rene' 268.34
21 Tennessee Valley Air Race 2010 10/30/10 Sport Questair Venture Crawford, Tony 267.73
22 AirVenture Cup 2009 7/27/09 Sport Lancalr Legacy Behel, Lee & Jay 265.9
23 AirVenture Cup 2008 7/28/08 Unlimited Lancair IV Zaccignino, Pete 265.83
24 Tennessee Valley Air Race 2010 10/30/10 Sport Lancair Legacy Sutter, Ernie 264.39
25 AirVenture Cup 2007 7/23/07 Sport SX-300 Zimmerman, Greg 262.75
26 AirVenture Cup 2007 7/23/07 Sport Glasair III Jones, Mike 261.72 301.18
27 AirVenture Cup 2010 7/26/10 Sport Questair Crawford, Tony 261.41
28 AirVenture Cup 2009 7/27/09 Turbine Turbine Legend Dugas, Rene & Vernon Rogers 260.71
29 AirVenture Cup 2008 7/28/08 Sport SX-300 Sutherland, Duncan 260.28
30 AirVenture Cup 2010 7/26/10 Sport Lancair Legacy Alair, Scott 260.25
31 AirVenture Cup 2009 7/27/09 Sport SX-300 Hinckley, Harry 259.75
32 Grace Flight 2008 10/5/08 Turbine Turbine Legend Dugas, Rene' 258.71
33 AirVenture Cup 2008 7/28/08 Sport SX-300 Phillips, Keith 258.49
34 Tennessee Valley Air Race 2010 10/30/10 Sport SX301 Smith, Mike 258.25
35 AirVenture Cup 2007 7/23/07 Sport Lancair Legacy Alair, Scott 258.23
36 Tennessee Valley Air Race 2010 10/30/10 Sport Glasair III Bean, Sarah 257.97
37 AirVenture Cup 2008 7/28/08 Sport SX-300 Vitale, James 257.81
38 Tennessee Valley Air Race 2010 10/30/10 Sport SX301 Vitale, 256.27
39 AirVenture Cup 2008 7/28/08 Sport FX Questair Crawford, Tony 256.27
40 Texoma 100, 2008 4/20/08 Sport SX-300 Sutherland, Duncan 256.12
41 Texoma 100 4/25/10 Sport SX-300 Sutherland, Duncan 256.1
42 Texoma 100 2009 5/31/09 Sport SX-300 Sutherland, Duncan 255.02
43 BCAF 150, 2008 5/4/08 Sport SX-300 Sutherland, Duncan 254.63
44 Grace Flight 2009 10/4/09 Sport SX-300 Sutherland, Duncan 254.44
45 Texoma 100 4/25/10 Sport Lancair Legacy Sutter, Ernie 254.25
46 Texoma 100 4/25/10 Sport SX-300 Musick,Stan 254.12
47 AirVenture Cup 2007 7/23/07 Sport SX-300 Phillips, Keith 253.05
48 Tennessee Valley Air Race 2009 6/14/09 Unlimited Lancair Legacy Farnsworth, Lynn 252.9
49 Taylor 100 2007 5/20/07 Sport SX-300 Sutherland, Duncan 252.36
50 Sulphur Springs 130 7/18/10 Sport* SX-300 Smith, Mike 251.84
51 AirVenture Cup 2007 7/23/07 Sport SX-300 Vitale, James 251.65
52 Sulphur Springs 130 7/18/10 Sport SX-300 Musick, Stan 251.48
53 AirVenture Cup 2010 7/26/10 Sport SX301 Musick, Stan 251.48
54 Grace Flight 2008 10/5/08 Sport SX-300 Sutherland, Duncan 251.35
55 AirVenture Cup 2007 7/23/07 Unlimited Lancair IV-P Gainza, Craig 251.03
56 Memphis 100, 2007 10/28/07 Unlimited Turbo Legend Dugas, Rene' 251.01
57 Grace Flight 2010 10/2/10 Sport SX-300 Sutherland, Duncan 250.94
58 Grace Flight 2010 10/2/10 Sport SX-300 Musick, Stan 250.66 288.44
59 Pagosa Springs 2010 9/26/10 Sport SX 300 Sutherland, Duncan 250.68
60 AirVenture Cup 2010 7/26/10 Sport Lancair Legacy Jim Thomas 249.95
61 AirVenture Cup 2010 7/26/10 Sport Glasair III Bean, Sarah 249.63
62 AirCap 200 8/24/08 Sport SX-300 Sutherland, Duncan 248.49
63 Pagosa Springs 100 2009 9/27/09 Sport SX-300 Sutherland, Duncan 248.43
64 Pagosa Springs 2010 9/26/10 Sport Lancair Legacy Sutter, Ernie 247.96
65 AirVenture Cup 2008 7/28/08 Sport Lancair Legacy Thomas, Jim 247.63
66 West Texas 100, 2007 10/7/07 Sport SX-300 Sutherland, Duncan 247.50
67 Pagosa Springs 2010 9/26/10 Sport SX 300 Smith, Mike 247.17
68 Sulphur Springs 130 7/18/10 Sport Lancair Legacy Sutter, Ernie 246.3
69 AirVenture Cup 2008 7/28/08 Sport Lancair Legacy Bracken, Charles 207.07
70 Grace Flight 2010 10/2/10 Sport Lancair Legacy Sutter, Ernie 246.15
71 Rocket 100, 2007 11/18/07 Sport SX-300 Sutherland, Duncan 244.23
72 Rocket 100 2008 11/23/08 Sport SX-300 Sutherland, Duncan 243.92
73 AirVenture Cup 2010 7/26/10 Sport SX301 Phillips, Keith 242.68
74 AirVenture Cup 2010 7/26/10 Sport Lancair Legacy Crawford, Alan 242.37
75 AirVenture Cup 2008 7/28/08 Sport SX-300 Platt, Steve 241.93
76 Grace Flight 2010 10/2/10 Sport SX-300 Smith, Mike 241.93
77 AirVenture Cup 2010 7/26/10 Sport SX301 Ciansi, James 241.64
78 Colorado 150, 2008 6/29/08 Sport SX-300 Sutherland, Duncan 240.08
79 AirVenture Cup 2009 7/27/09 Sport SX-300 Phillips, Keith & Tim 238.81
80 Grace Flight 2010 10/2/10 Sport Lancair Legacy Crawford, Alan 238.35
81 West Texas 100 6/6/10 Sport Legacy Sutter, Ernie 237.15
82 Rocket 100 2008 11/23/08 Sport Glasair III Robinson, Jim 237.09
83 Memphis 100 2008 10/19/08 Sport SX-300 Sutherland, Duncan 237.04
84 Sulphur Springs 130 7/18/10 Turbine Twin Piper Cheyenne 3 McCallum, Ron 236.22
85 Pagosa Springs 100 2009 9/27/09 RG-T Blue Polen Special II Keyt, Dick 236.21
86 AirVenture Cup 2008 7/28/08 Unlimited Cozy 541 Esselstyn, Chris 235.23
87 Tennessee Valley Air Race 2010 10/30/10 Sport FX EVO Rocket Martin, Tom 234.63
88 Sulphur Springs 130 7/18/10 Turbine Single TBM Michel* 234.33
89 AirVenture Cup 2009 7/27/09 Sport Glasair III Bean, Sarah & Bob 233.53
90 Pagosa Springs 2010 9/26/10 Sport Glasair III Robinson, Jim 232.4
91 AirVenture Cup 2008 7/28/08 Sport FX Glasair I TD Hammer, Steve & Mueller, Larry 231.84
92 AirVenture Cup 2008 7/28/08 Sport FX EVO Rocket Martin, Tom 231.62
93 AirVenture Cup 2007 7/23/07 Sport SX-300 Platt, Steve 230.42
94 AirVenture Cup 2008 7/28/08 FX Blue Glasair I TD Hammer, Bruce 230.37
95 Rocket 100 2009 11/22/09 Sport Glasair III Gossen, Dick 230.19
96 Texoma 100, 2008 4/20/08 FX Blue Glasair I TD Hammer, Bruce 230.06
97 Sulphur Springs 130 7/18/10 Sport Lancair IV Newburg, Jason 229.92
98 Tennessee Valley Air Race 2010 10/30/10 FX Blue Glasair I TD Hammer, Bruce 229.78
99 Texoma 100, 2008 4/20/08 RG Blue Lancair 360 Henney, Larry 229.36
100 AirVenture Cup 2008 7/28/08 Unlimited Glasair III Ludwig, Jeff 229.26

Bob Axsom