[DeltaRomeo]

"Dear Doug"
The message below was sent in with the request that I present it to the readers in an anonymous manner - due primarily to the fact that it's a pending insurance claim matter. If you have real data that can add value to the discussion I'd (he'd) certainly appreciate it.
b,
dr
> While getting tailwheel transition time, I sustained a propstrike.
> Since there was an instructor there and I didn't have a tailwheel
> endorsement, I was not PIC. The incident could have been averted by
> the instructor, but the entire day of training had gone well.
> Basically, we bounced on a wheel landing and the nose got too forward.
>
> I have a non-owned airplane policy that covers $20k of damage to the
> airplane if I am liable and $5k if I am not (the 5k is designed to
> cover FBO deductables). The total damage was just under $10k for the
> teardown, inspection and new prop.
>
> Now, my insurance company agrees with me that I was not PIC at the
> time and is a strict sense, it not liable. Thus, they will pay
> $5k. However, they are suggesting that we settle the claim and
> have them pay the entire amount - I guess $5k isn't worth fighting
> over for them.
>
> My problem is - if they pay the entire claim, how will this affect the
> rates on my owned airplane policy? If I'm going to wind up paying $5k
> in insurance premiums if the claim goes on my record, then I'd rather
> just pay the $5k myself and not have it on my record. The kicker is
> that both my policies - owned and non-owned - are with the same
> company.

 

[Geico266]

Reguardless if a claim is filed or not, if the insurance company knows about the incident, your rates will more than likely go higher.

Never call your agent to discuss a possible claim. It's the same as filing a claim. Insurance companies subscribe to a service called CLUE. Casualty & Loss Underwriters Evaluation. Every time you call your agent to discuss anything about a claim or even the possibility of a claim a CLUE report is filed against your record.

http://www.privacyrights.org/fs/fs26-CLUE.htm

Insurance companies are not in the business of paying claims, they are in the business of collecting premiums.

 

[Mike S]

Amen to that

Insurance companies are not in the business of paying claims, they are in the business of collecting premiums.

Truer words were never spoken/written.

Mike

 

[briand]

I'm confused. The damage was to someone elses airplane? The PIC/CFI should be 100% liable. IMHO. But I guess if the owner is coming at you and your insurance co. is willing to pay then I would settle. You probably already got all the negative points as mentioned above, it doesn't really matter if its 5K or 10K.

 

[TShort]

A year and a half ago I was involved in a ground loop which totaled a Citabria; I had about 2 hours of tailwheel time and was with a 20,000 hour or so CFI with lots of tailwheel / alaskan bush time. To make a long story short, an undocumented repair had been made to the rear seat which caused the rudder cable to rub and wear; it broke on landing and the airplane was uncontrollable.

After talking briefly with the AOPA legal services guys (glad I paid for that!) I let my insurance agent know and wrote a detailed letter describing the incident. Interestingly, this occurred the weekend before I took delivery of the 170 (had already made a deal, etc) and I was shopping for tailwheel insurance. My agent forwarded the letter and eventually the NTSB report to the underwriters and we had no problems.

It has not affected my rates at all. Jenny Estes at Nationair was great to work with and the underwriters did not have an issue with the accident.

T.

 

[gmcjetpilot]

Don't assume anything.

I'm confused. The damage was to someone else's airplane? The PIC/CFI should be 100% liable. IMHO. But I guess if the owner is coming at you and your insurance co. is willing to pay then I would settle. You probably already got all the negative points as mentioned above, it doesn't really matter if its 5K or 10K.

There's a lesson here for RV'ers who are getting CFI training in their RV or training in someone else's RV or plane. The above sounds like a FBO rental situation, lease back plane? There are gotchas for the RV builder/pilot/owner.

If the CFI has no insurance, than lots of luck getting any money for them. You can always sue someone but that cost money.

If you do get a CFI to fly in your RV, make sure the CFI has time in make/model. Only twin engine airplanes require the CFI to have 5 hours in make/model before giving dual, per the FAR's.

Regardless if you hire a CFI to fly your plane, or teach you in another plane make sure either:

Your insurance will cover this dual and the instructor
Instructor carries their own appropriate insurance​

I am a CFI with lots of RV time. I would like to instruct RV transition, tail dragger transition and RV currency. Clearly instructing is not a money maker type deal unless you charge crazy rates. When you see $100/hr for private lessons in a RV, that is not too crazy. If your car mechanic gets $65-$85/hr to turn a wrench. What should a pilot instructor get when they have to carry thousands in insurance and be liable for an expensive plane and your life?


Teaching in my RV tail dragger makes the most the sense, in terms of demand as a "product". That is what people want and need. They need to fly a RV before they fly theirs. Getting time in make/model for insurance or a tail dragger checkout is a good thing. The catch 22 is insuring the instruction and initial flight experience of new RV pilots. Some insurance companies will just not insure first flight or phase I or charge ridiculous rates. Now if someone needs "A" model time I can't help them.

If I use my own plane, of course I'd have to allow folks to abuse my baby and carry the extra insurance. Unlike Van's factory check pilots use a factory plane, it would be my personally owned and maintained plane. Also I would have to insure the heck out of it.

The extra "instruction" insurance cost is say about $1,500-$2,000 a year. That is on-top of the typical $1,500-$1,700 insurance for the plane used only for private use. If I give 50-100 hours of part time instruction in my plane, that's about $30 an hour to just pay for the insurance. Now add time and expense..... I can't assume the student will pay me my loss of the do something bad and I don't catch it. Even little damage like stepping on the flaps is a liability.



Could I instruct in the builder/owner/pilot in their RV. There is less demand, because you can't give dual in Phase I. Also I don't want to get into doing first flights. The likely scenario would be if someone bought a used RV and needed a check out. I could carry my own insurance to cover me which is just as expensive as plane insurance. How many of these check outs a year would I do to pay for the insurance?

One way to go is adding the CFI to the planes insurance policy by name. I did that with a little group that owned a C-182. I did check outs, comp checks, flt reviews and new member check out / time in type building. Insurance companies are not over joyed about the idea of a RV pilot/owner adding a CFI to their policy. I looked into it. Their response was it can be done, but they rather not. They think the CFI (me) should get their own insurance. Of course why not have the CFI carry their own insurance, it lowers their liability. If you are using a CFI to teach you than you may want to look into adding the CFI to your insurance, especially if they don't have their own liability insurance.



Another wrinkle, some airports actually require any instructor teaching out of an airport or in an airplane based there to have a bond or insurance at that airport. It is kind of hard to enforce, but a local airport authority can shut it down, at least until the CFI gets a multi million dollar plus bond that names the airport. I would ask the airport authorities. You should know.

Now lets say an accident happens with a CFI and a RV is bent, who's to blame? Every case is different, but it is all about money. Don't make any assumptions about PIC and who is financially liable, they are two different things. The FAA does no legislate insurance or who pays to fix a bent plane.

Some times just a conversation is needed before the flight. May be even a piece of paper with some signatures that says who is responsible for damages or liability. It may or may not hold up in court, but it is better than just kicking the tires & lighting the fire and saying, "I thought you where flying the plane!", after the accident.

If you own the airplane and the CFI is not insured you are probably going to bite it, regardless of who was PIC or flying. Good luck getting the money out of the CFI. (The case above involves a FBO I think. That is a different dynamic; I'm talking about private planes w/ private instructors.)



Sadly that is why I'm not teaching in RV's, unreasonable insurance rates for instructing. As a casual thing its not cost effective and financially too risky for me. Getting RV dual in some parts of the country is almost impossible for folks. Finding a CFI for experimentals is more difficult than it need be. The insurance companies don't make it easier. As it is now you have to live near or drive or fly part cross country to get to one of the transition instructors. At least there are some.