Webb

Webb

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As I flew home today, I thought about the thread full of promises never to fly from VFR into IMC.....

http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=44898&highlight=promise

Please do me a favor, even if you never plan to fly into IMC, promise you'll learn how to shoot an approach or at least get a plate and know the corridor(s) you can use to get safely back in. Why you ask since you only fly VFR?

Here's an example of why....

Yesterday was severe clear coming home into M16. Not a cloud in the sky at 5:30pm. Winds calm. Good day to get a tan when flying. It was a perfect day for a VFR pilot only...or was it.

I was at 6,500 feet and VFR direct. It was so hazy and into the sun that my foward visability was so poor I couldn't see the TV towers (4) around my home airport. For that matter, I might as well been in IMC for the last hour since I had almost no visual references since I was direct into the sun. So I shot the RNAV30. I never did see the towers yesterday but then again, I flew the approach which guaranteed no issues with obstacles.

I got a practice approach in but more importantly, arrival was a none event.
 
Webb:
Good point. Flights into the sun can become pretty dangerous, especially when you're in an area where traffic may be dense. Always a good idea to utilize flight following and advise your visibility situation. As you point out, it's also a great opportunity to request a practice approach, if you've got the tools needed to accomplish this. Another alternative, if possible, would be to position yourself so that your descent and approach will take place out of, rather than into, the sun. I like your thought process of using all available resources.
Terry, CFI
RV9A N323TP
 
If you fly in the southeast you get used to the haze. I use flight following though not so much for the ground obstacles but for traffic. It was very hazy here yesterday also.
 
I didn't point out that I was on FF, however when I told them how poor the visability was and couldn't see the towers, Jackson approach was more than happy to accomodate me.

My concern is what looks like severe clear could in fact be very dangerous to pilots that don't practice skills they promise they won't need because they don't do that kind of flying. I wonder when the last time a "I promise to fly in on VFR weather only" pilot practiced a few minutes under the hood.
 
Agree 100% and Here's Why

More than once I have flown my RV into IMC or at least WX that was absolutely beyond any VFR pilot's competence completely by accident. Lest you think me an idiot or a novice, I've been flying in the same region since 1978 and never had these kind of issues. I've been instrument rated since before the PATCO strike. I don't do scud running. An RV makes trouble happen a lot faster than a C-150.

Twice it was immediately upon departure and third after a few miles. In the third case, I was suddenly on top of IMC while actually in the clear. In the first two, the difference between the clouds and the haze was so indistinct that I didn't see it coming and climbed into it. For those, I just stayed in the pattern (via GPS) and descended below the clouds on final. Kind of a "circle to land", all on Tower frequency.

In the third case I was going to fly another pilot from DET to ARB, a very short distance; he wanted to pick up his Cirrus there. He was a 250 hour VFR pilot. We both thought the WX was good. As we were about halfway to ARB it became obvious from what we could see and even more from the radio that conditions were suddenly getting really bad. I turned back. By the time we got back to DET it was not possible to see it and the radio towers were poking up through the "stuff" below us. It took me three tries to get down close enough to the airport and to the ground at the same time. The third and sucessful one was a short version of the ILS to 15. This was all under Tower communications. At no time did I feel lost or in danger, but it was not a desireable situation. My passenger said - with feeling - that he was glad that I was flying and not him. I used it as a teachable moment and urged him to get an IFR rating to go with his Cirrus. The WX can fool you.

Here's the rest of the advice:
1. have an airplane that is capable of navigating without visual references, even if it is not legal for IFR.
2. preferably, have it legal for IFR.
3. be competent at basic IFR skills even if you don't ever plan to fly IFR.
4. always have the GPS moving map running when you are about to fly or or flying.
5. it's a really good idea to have an autopilot, too. Don't hesitate to use it. Don't be JFK Jr.
 
hevansrv7a said:
1. have an airplane that is capable of navigating without visual references, even if it is not legal for IFR.
2. preferably, have it legal for IFR.
3. be competent at basic IFR skills even if you don't ever plan to fly IFR.
4. always have the GPS moving map running when you are about to fly or or flying.
5. it's a really good idea to have an autopilot, too. Don't hesitate to use it. Don't be JFK Jr.
Click to expand...

Sounds like good advice. I need more specifics though - I am VFR only pilot and know next to nothing about IFR operations. I do have a dual screen GRT EFIS, Garmin 296, and Trutrack 2- axis auotpilot. Does that qualify under #1 above? Pretty sure I dont qualify for legal IFR, but what do I know? For #3, that would seem to involve getting some additional training - never a bad idea. #4 - Agree completely and mine is on for every flight, local or not. Another plus - the x96 units log every flight for you, so if your lazy about filling out your log book, you can easily just check the records on your unit later. #5 - Yup again. I get mine booted up and have it ready to go regardless of flight mission and conditions. No downside there.

thanks

erich
 
I flew yesterday through some pretty severe haze here in Georgia. Behind me was severe clear, ahead of me was pretty hairy. This is fairly typical around here in the summer time. Georgia can frequently get 98%+ humidity with no rain in site. Combine that with daily smog alerts and you get some bad forward visibility quite often. Of course with the fantastic climb performance of RVs, it's almost always quite easy to get above the haze if going on longer trips and there are no class B shelves or restricted airspace keeping you low.

As for towers, that's what sectionals are for. Look at the maximum altitude in each box...that is the height of the highest tower/obstacle. Simply fly higher than that altitude. In unable to fly higher than that, check out the route you're on...and check for towers. Check NOTAMS and the AFD for new obstacles. This is where my Trutrak comes in handy...it keeps the sunny side up while I'm checking out charts, looking for traffic, etc. As an aid, I really like my 496 helping me to avoid obstacles. That thing is so slick.

Yesterday I also picked up flight following on my short trip, which I always do if I'm able to when visibility is poor (sometimes Atlanta Center will just IGNORE you if too busy). I actually think the center controllers would rather us VFR guys be talking to them more times than not. I got vectored twice yesterday on the short 62nm trip I was making, both times to help with traffic.
 
Required

hevansrv7a said:

3. be competent at basic IFR skills even if you don't ever plan to fly IFR.
Click to expand...

Remember that basic instrument skills are part of being a Private Pilot. The test standards are rather clear on this:

http://flighttraining.aopa.org/library/pdfs/faa-s-8081-14a.pdf

Private Pilot Test Standards, Page 1-30

Which makes it fair game on a Flight Review. Get some instruction and practice with a safety pilot. It's fun and can save your life.


John Clark
RV8 N18U "Sunshine"
KSBA
 
tell me more hevansrv7a, what did the weather folks say?

just wondering how undexpected the weather was,... I understand the HAZE we have down south, (doesn't mean I like it or feel real comfortable with it).. and understand FOG can happen fairly quickly,...

just wondering what was going on that was such a surprise and if there were any indications looking back on it.
 
First reply

Please see responses in BOLD.

erich weaver said:
Sounds like good advice. I need more specifics though - I am VFR only pilot and know next to nothing about IFR operations. I do have a dual screen GRT EFIS, Garmin 296, and Trutrack 2- axis auotpilot. Does that qualify under #1 above? YES Pretty sure I dont qualify for legal IFR, but what do I know? FOR LEGAL, YOU WOULD NEED A TSO'D VOR, A TSO'D XPONDER, A CHECK BY A CERTIFIED TECH. For #3, that would seem to involve getting some additional training - never a bad idea. DO IT, PLEASE #4 - Agree completely and mine is on for every flight, local or not. Another plus - the x96 units log every flight for you, so if your lazy about filling out your log book, you can easily just check the records on your unit later. #5 - Yup again. I get mine booted up and have it ready to go regardless of flight mission and conditions. No downside there.

thanks

erich
Click to expand...
 
Reluctant reply

thinkn9a said:
just wondering how undexpected the weather was,... I understand the HAZE we have down south, (doesn't mean I like it or feel real comfortable with it).. and understand FOG can happen fairly quickly,...

just wondering what was going on that was such a surprise and if there were any indications looking back on it.
Click to expand...
I knew the WX was lousy the two times I climbed up into it, but the ASOS did not indicate it was that low. More importantly, I could not see the lower boundary yet I thought, from the ground, that I would be able to see it. Things looked better from the ground, simply put. It was SVFR at best. It was no big deal to remain in the pattern and descend enough to restore visual contact with mother earth. But if I did not have the moving map and the skill to keep the airplane under control it could have been a lot different. I will add a note that an EFIS such as my GRT is an order of magnitude better for making an unexpected transition to flying by instruments. I flew round dials for many years. IMHO there is no comparison in the workload and integration of information.

On the DET-ARB trip I don't recall what the WX was, but we had both checked it and it really did not call for IFR or even crappy VFR. It just suddenly got worse near the ground (not fog, technically, I don't think). ARB went IFR minimums while we were under way. It was even more surprising when we tried to go back. It looked OK for a few minutes as we went WSW. The trip is only 34.5 NM and under the DTW Class B. We were in visual conditions but above a layer; the layer did not reach the ground. I never did figure out what went wrong and that's really not the point. You can never learn enough about the WX to eliminate this risk.

The point is that good pilots (I include myself) can fly into IMC when not so intending. Perhaps I was careless and stupid, perhaps not. The point is that it can happen to anyone unless you only fly on CAVU days. And since it can happen, be prepared. I was - and am - trying to support the theme of the thread. I'm willing to look bad if it will get some other pilot to a safer place. I also want to repeat that the RV with its 3x or better climb rate can get you into IMC a lot faster than a Cessna.
 
Wallace - I think you missed my point but I be happy to answer your question. Weather was unrestricted visability (greater than 10SM), sky clear, barometric pressure 29.96, density altitude 2,200 feet and TDZ 297 feet, winds vaiable less than 5 knots, and at the airport winds were calm.

There were no surprises. I expect reduced visability when flying directly into the sun at 5pm on a hazy day. Had I been flying east, this post wouldn't have been written. Yesterday was one of the worst I've seen in a while for reduced forward visability.

My point was what would suggest a perfect VFR day could have been disasterous for a pilot such as Erich that stated he knows next to nothing about IFR.

What I'm suggesting is learn something about flying IFR so you can have a plan "B". Practice a 180 if you fly into a cloud that is hidden in the haze. Learn to do an approach to avoid those towers you can't see but know they are there because the sectional has them mapped or you are familiar with the area and know they are out there, learn to hold the plane level when you have no outside references, etc....
 
thanks guys

H. Evan - appreciate you stepping up and explaining a bit more of the background. I was just trying to understand and learn from someone else's experience, so appreciate the insights. Down south the haze, as Webb mentioned can be very bad. The worst I've ever seen, was one day driving (as in on the ground) I thought to myself,.. wow,.. very hazy,.. wonder if there are any showers around... about that time, lightning struck the power line next to the road,... couldn't even see the clouds

Webb - yep understand about visibility, and need to have some ability to back out. Down on the coast I'm glad I'm heading up to higher altitudes to do my tests. I lost about a 60 degree sector of visibility to haze and sun friday evening... spent a good deal of time in turns and watching the traffic watch (which by the way gives off some false indications when I'm climbing/turning),.. which can get into a bit of a tail chase on trying to get out of your own way,... till you figure out it is you...

p.s. Webb,.. when you get to Mobile, let me know if you need a second onboard for some IFR work. I'm over at Pascagoula.
 
I agree with the use of an autopilot to supplement staying bottom side down. While I learned to fly in the Southeast USA, going back on several trips haze has caused similar issues to what others reported.

I have seen haze in the distance and wondered if it was solid clouds.

I have descended to avoid entering clouds (really just haze) plus to get to where I can see ground for spatial orientation. Going into the sun with haze is bad.

Haze usually forces me to fly low which I do not like.
 
I'll never understand the guys who fly 500 or 1,000 hours without ever getting an instrument rating. That's just begging for it, in my opinion, especially if you ever fly cross-country. I met a guy the other day who had about 650 TT, and the whole time he was talking about hot-doggin it around his home airport or flying long XC trips to go gambling with a non-pilot buddy of his, in a plane that's probably got one radio, no ILS, and all this for a pilot who aside from the PPL requirements has never had any formal IMC training. The day I got my PPL, I went out and flew myself a short XC. Typical summer day with more and more cumulus clouds getting lower and lower. I did fine, but as soon as I landed I said "**** with this," and started on my instrument training the very next day.
 
I'll probably get ripped for this one but boy did I experience how quickly weather can turn down here in the south. Sunday morning I woke up with the fiance expecting to have a nice little flight around the pattern for some touch and go practice. I had rented a little spam can out at KIWS and upon waking that morning 0600 I checked all the local weather stations around me. I had checked the outlook the night before and the reports indicated some fog and haze around 06-0700. After looking at the weather at 0600 I decided to go back to bed and hope the fog would clear out. Waking back up around 0730 I noticed 2 of the 4 weather stations were reporting vfr with two still showing IFR but with visibility increasing. PERFECT I thought. from what the stations are showing it looks at though the fog is burning off and pulling back. I called the airport and after asking what the airport looked like, the fiance and I headed out for a final go no go decision. Side note: airport official I spoke with said there was a light haze, no wind, and that it was clearing as the sun came up. In Texas or at least Houston you get used to hazey mornings. While in training the early morning flights were always of this nature and i thought this was no different. Upon arriving at the airport I could still see a haze but could see the downtown skyline and didn't see any reasons to think it wasn't typical morning fog/haze. This is were it all started going wrong. First since I was the only plane on the radio and no one else was in the pattern I decided to make 15 the active(winds were calm and I mean CALM). After completing my run-up and moving toward the runway hold short line. My fiance said "hey honey that Baron is going the other way" WHAT!! I thought and just as soon as I worked the wing around to see down the taxi way he came over the radio "Baron XXXX taxing onto 33 for a westbound VFR departure". I was pissed to say the least. I had seen the baron land earlier for fuel and he never came back over the radio for a radio check, airport advisory or saying he was leaving the ramp and taxi'ing 33 or anything. I miced in that I was on the hold short line for 15 for a closed pattern and and his response was "well i'm taking 33 do what you want". I should have known then that it was going to be a bad morning. So I radio'd that I was taxing back to 33 for a closed pattern as I didn't want anyone possibly flying around to be confused about what runway was being used. After one last check of systems and doors we were off. Once I got to about 500 feet I started noticing that the light haze had gotten much much worse and so I turned crosswind. Radar hadn't shown any precip but I tell you by 800 feet I was schiming the bottom of some pretty thick fog. I didn't dare go any higher although I could tell that the sky's were clear above the layer. My only thought at this point was lets go ahead and get this bird back on the ground. I didn't like how it was turning and the fog looked to be thickening. staying around 800ft(pattern altitude was 1,111 which was right in the middle of the layer) I turned very short base knowing that the thickest of what I was now battling was straight off the end of 33(the skyline was now gone). It was at this point i decided that i was to close, to high, and to fast to safely land on 33 without throwing in some flaps and a slip. So I radio'd that I was changing to a 15 landing. Still there were no other sounds on the radio, there hadn't been since I asked for a radio check on the ramp and of course the baron. Approaching the end of my downwind for 15 the fog had pushed me to 600 feet and so I made a short base and final all while reducing airspeed putting in some flaps and setting up for my landing spot. The landing was fine little bit of floating and such but that was just my flying. After getting on the ground I checked all my weather stations and all of them now had tempo's for fog 1-2 miles visibility. Needless to say it wasn't fun and I learned a valuable lesson. I never felt like I wasn't in control of the airplane and knew the fog/haze was light enough I could climb out of it but i knew also if i climbed above it i would loose sight of the airport and with this weather creeping up fast like it did I didn't want to get stuck having to fly to another airport. All I wanted to do was get the bird on the ground not get above what had moved in. By the time I paid for my .4 hours and we were walking out of the FBO the skies were completely clear and in the distance i could see the mass that had worked it's way over to me. I checked the ole iphone local aviation radar. To see if what I had experienced was indeed heavy fog or a cloud and the radar showed nothing. It was a learning experience and a caution i hope others can learn from. Just because you think you know what the weather is going to do doesn't mean it won't do the opposite!!
 
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