[bertschb]

I learned to fly before there was GPS and the last time I flew was 20 years ago so I'm totally out of the loop on the new GPS navigators, auto pilots, etc. As I start to get caught up on what's new in avionics since I last flew I've done some cross country trip planning using some free online tools. I plan to install a full Garmin suite in my -14 but I haven't subscribed to Garmin Pilot yet so I have no experience with it other than watching YouTube videos. There seems to be one thing missing in all the videos I've watched and that's "customized auto-routing".

For example, when doing trip planning using ground based mapping/navigators (e.g. recreational vehicle trips), you can choose to avoid highways, dirt roads, toll roads, set height restrictions for bridges, etc and the navigator will provide a route that matches your criteria. Do any aviation products do this? It seems like there should be a way during flight planning to check boxes for avoiding certain types of airspace (TFR's, MOA's, Class B, etc), adding minimum AGL altitudes, etc along the route and have the navigator plot that route. One more thing I think the avionics should do is allow you to send this customized route to the autopilot and have the autopilot fly that route. Again, in the videos I've watched I don't see this capability either.

Am I missing something or do I just need to wait another 20 years for these features to show up?

 

[N40ES]

I learned to fly before there was GPS and the last time I flew was 20 years ago so I'm totally out of the loop on the new GPS navigators, auto pilots, etc. As I start to get caught up on what's new in avionics since I last flew I've done some cross country trip planning using some free online tools. I plan to install a full Garmin suite in my -14 but I haven't subscribed to Garmin Pilot yet so I have no experience with it other than watching YouTube videos. There seems to be one thing missing in all the videos I've watched and that's "customized auto-routing".

For example, when doing trip planning using ground based mapping/navigators (e.g. recreational vehicle trips), you can choose to avoid highways, dirt roads, toll roads, set height restrictions for bridges, etc and the navigator will provide a route that matches your criteria. Do any aviation products do this? It seems like there should be a way during flight planning to check boxes for avoiding certain types of airspace (MOA's, Class B, etc), adding minimum AGL altitudes, etc along the route and have the navigator plot that route. One more thing I think the avionics should do is allow you to send this customized route to the autopilot and have the autopilot fly that route. Again, in the videos I've watched I don't see this capability either.

Am I missing something or do I just need to wait another 20 years for these features to show up?

IFLYGPS . COM does everything you ask for and a whole lot more! just run real plan and even get altitude recommendations based on current winds aloft. Garmin panel products do not play nice with it so I use it as a required backup otherwise it would be my first choice. Oh Yeah, put it on your own I-PAD with cell service and drop down to 2500 ft or less and pick up "UPDATES" in Flight. But don't let it distract you, or wait till you are on the ground. Add a portable ADSB IN and you get "Fish Finder" too.

 

[rocketman1988]

I use Forelflight with my Garmin G3X. It is a simple thing to flight plan a route on ForeFlight, easily avoiding any airspace you desire. You can set an aircraft profile with a typical cruise altitude and speed. ForeFlight will allow you to select different altitudes and will show winds and performance changes. These are all things that you, as PIC, are supposed to be doing during your flight planning. Once the route is established, it will upload to my GTN650 wirelessly. It is a two way conduit, so you can change on one device and the other will update.

 

[Amadeus]

I use Forelflight with my Garmin G3X.

The ForeFlight/Garmin is a beautiful combo. Easy flight plans at home then sync to Garmin once you start up!

 

[bertschb]

..These are all things that you, as PIC, are supposed to be doing during your flight planning.

I understand that. All of my cross country flights to date have been done with an E6B, sectional charts and dead reckoning. No GPS. No iPad. No electronic devices of any kind.

What I want to know is if there is any flight planning software that will allow me to set default behavior for route planning (just like auto/RV navigators do- including Garmins). This is basic functionality now but I don't think Garmin includes this in their aviation navigators.

IFLYGPS . COM does everything you ask for and a whole lot more!

Thanks. I'm installing this now on my iPad. But, if I can't send the route to my G3X, it's no bueno. I'll be 100% Garmin and don't plan to fly using an iPad (although I will carry one).

 

[DeltaRomeo]

….. don't plan to fly using an iPad (although I will carry one).

I use ForeFlight on my iPhone, Bert. It’s all I use now. I have an iPad, but I stopped carrying/using it about six months ago. I fold up a microfiber cloth and place it on my thigh - set my phone on that, and I run a small portable battery to my phone if the airplane isn’t equipped with a phone charger.

Works well in concert with my Garmin panel

I have a Sentry that talks to my phone and provides traffic and weather

I do all my flight plans, my fuel planning, weight and balance, calling the FBO, etc. just using my phone. You can amend a flight plan in 30 seconds and can shove it under your headset and call departure at the runup area

I use it this way in the RV-6, the King Air 350, Phenom 300 and in the simulator. It took me four years to whittle it down to just this - time in the seat is what it really took, for me. And plans always seem to change when you’re eating lunch at a fuel stop. Doing everything from your phone lets you quickly amend the flight plan and make any phone calls you need to make. I used to not always have my iPad with me.

used to carry a lot more stuff, but not anymore. This seems to work best for my situation these days

As Stein says, my .02.

 

[RNB]

Fly direct.
Ignore all that stuff you are worried about.
Take a Garmin class!

 

[bertschb]

IFLYGPS . COM does everything you ask for and a whole lot more!

OK, I tried this app but I couldn't figure out how to get it to automatically route around airspace that I select in advance. I can set up warnings for airspace along the route but that's not what I'm looking for.

 

[DeltaRomeo]

OK, I tried this app but I couldn't figure out how to get it to automatically route around airspace that I select in advance. I can set up warnings for airspace along the route but that's not what I'm looking for.

At least in ForeFlight, you can set up constraints to include a waypoint. You could use that to steer you around an area when you were having it suggest routes for you.

 

[Amadeus]

Fly direct.

I "get" what you are seeking Brian but I believe, more often than not, you will find yourself flying direct. Flying direct with flight following the traffic controllers will hand you off (with clearances) through all airspaces and if there is a "hot" MOA they will vector you around, above or below. Same with a TFR. GPS for aviation doesn't have the automation choices ground GPS has. With the advent of artificial intelligence perhaps ForeFlight will eventually add real-time routing that takes present and forecast weather, icing levels, mountain obscuration, etc., etc., etc., into consideration and spew out the dream flight plan. Until then flying direct and letting ATC do their job is the best option.

 

[DeltaRomeo]

... the traffic controllers will hand you off (with clearances) through all airspaces and if there is a "hot" MOA they will vector you around, above or below. Same with a TFR.

And even ‘hot’ MOAs can be fun if you’re talking to center.
I had (2) F-35s give me a wing rock a week ago as they passed off the right side.

 

[rocketman1988]

Fly direct.
Ignore all that stuff you are worried about.
Take a Garmin class!

Ignore the airspace concerns? Brilliant.

 

[bertschb]

Let me try this again because it appears I wasn't clear in my original post.

Garmin sells an RV (recreational vehicle) GPS navigator (e.g. Model RV 1095) that lets you select default settings for trip planning. For example, you can enter your RV weight and height and when planning a road trip, the GPS will avoid roads/bridges with weight limits that you would exceed and it will also route you around bridges that are lower than the height of your RV. You can also tell it to avoid gravel roads, etc. Once you have these default routing options selected, the GPS includes that information in its route planning calculations and will avoid those things in the route it selects. This is what I'm looking for.

Yes, I can do this myself by adding waypoints along my route to avoid TFR's etc. I was doing that 40 years ago on the sectional chart with a pencil. I'm just trying to find out if there are any aviation navigators today that have the same basic route planning capability as the recreational vehicle GPS units that have had these features for many years.

And again, I'm not looking for a system that warns me about obstacles in my path. I want the GPS to plan (and the autopilot to fly) the route around these obstacles.

 

[docjjrmd]

I get what you are asking. Not sure the current family of navigators can do what you are asking. Most, if not all, GPS units assume a straight line route VFR or waypoints IFR. You are asking about old fashion cut holes in the sky pilotage methods. Yes, I still have a handheld radio, wet compass, E6B, and try to have a reasonably up to date paper sectional in the cockpit with me. I might have to work at it, but I am never lost even if the whole panel goes dark (yes it happens!). So no short cuts on the flight planning, you can tell the navigator where and how to go to a series of points but I don't think they are sophisticated enough to pick the waypoints for you given a final destination.

 

[RNB]

Let me try this again because it appears I wasn't clear in my original post.

Garmin sells an RV (recreational vehicle) GPS navigator (e.g. Model RV 1095) that lets you select default settings for trip planning. For example, you can enter your RV weight and height and when planning a road trip, the GPS will avoid roads/bridges with weight limits that you would exceed and it will also route you around bridges that are lower than the height of your RV. You can also tell it to avoid gravel roads, etc. Once you have these default routing options selected, the GPS includes that information in its route planning calculations and will avoid those things in the route it selects. This is what I'm looking for.

Yes, I can do this myself by adding waypoints along my route to avoid TFR's etc. I was doing that 40 years ago on the sectional chart with a pencil. I'm just trying to find out if there are any aviation navigators today that have the same basic route planning capability as the recreational vehicle GPS units that have had these features for many years.

And again, I'm not looking for a system that warns me about obstacles in my path. I want the GPS to plan (and the autopilot to fly) the route around these obstacles

`again, I think you are making this all too complicated. Air travel is wide open, unlike spinning rubber on the ground.
if you file ifr, file direct, atc will guide you, fancy airspace and all.
preflight briefing needed. Re route if you want, in ForeFlight this is with magical devices called fingers, drag, drop, insert to route.

i don’t think you will satisfy your mind until you fly with your panel or one similar.
looking at a map, these things take seconds to figure out, even in a land of many MOAs.

 

[Stevea]

Once you have these default routing options selected, the GPS includes that information in its route planning calculations and will avoid those things in the route it selects. This is what I'm looking for.

Don't think any of the phone/ipad/tablet device flight planning software works like that in the VFR aviation world. There are default routing options in the IFR end of the planning (victor airways, SIDS, STARS, approaches).

Generally the VFR stuff works by entering:
1: where do you want to start?
2: where do you want to go?
3: what (if any) way points do you want in between the endpoints.

There is usually more than one way to enter and edit the route. My personal preference (VFR ForeFlight user) is to pick the route endpoints, then "rubber band" the route to avoid things (airspace, terrain, etc) and to add anything I want to overfly (airports, scenic spots, etc). ForeFlight (and probably all of them) instantly recalculates ALL the flight planning data so I always know how far, how much time, how much fuel, etc.

My suggestion is to pick one of the programs you're interested in using, and start "playing" with it.

 

[bertschb]

...you can tell the navigator where and how to go to a series of points but I don't think they are sophisticated enough to pick the waypoints for you given a final destination.

Based on what I've learned to date, I think you are correct.

 

[RV7A Flyer]

I think the answer you're looking for is "no". If you want an aviation GPS navigator to work like the infotainment system in your car viz-a-viz route planning (fastest vs. minimize freeways vs. blah blah blah), nuh uh.

 

[bertschb]

My personal preference (VFR ForeFlight user) is to pick the route endpoints, then "rubber band" the route to avoid things (airspace, terrain, etc) and to add anything I want to overfly (airports, scenic spots, etc).

This is what I do as well.

I actually enjoy route planning even though I think others here think I'm trying to avoid it - or I'm lazy. My background is software development so any time I'm "rubber banding" the route around restricted airspace I think to myself "this software should do this for me". It's not rocket science and it's already done with ground based GPS units.

 

[DeltaRomeo]

[...you can tell the navigator where and how to go to a series of points but I don't think they are sophisticated enough to pick the waypoints for you given a final destination.]

Based on what I've learned to date, I think you are correct.

If you file IFR most EFBs have a 'Route Advisor' that takes into account current WX, NOTAMs, hot MOAs etc. Button visible in the grab attached. I just used it to plan a flight from Denton, TX to OSH. Process took 20 seconds. Used the jet in the ex. below.
EFBs rock. IMHO.

 

[bertschb]

My suggestion is to pick one of the programs you're interested in using, and start "playing" with it.

Thanks Steve. I've tried 4 or 5 different programs and haven't found one yet that does what I'm suggesting.

 

[N40ES]

This is what I do as well.

I actually enjoy route planning even though I think others here think I'm trying to avoid it - or I'm lazy. My background is software development so any time I'm "rubber banding" the route around restricted airspace I think to myself "this software should do this for me". It's not rocket science and it's already done with ground based GPS units.

I don't think you are taking enough time to learn to use the IFLYGPS software. It will do the flight plan routing under "REAL PLAN" just as you are asking for it to. It will even "Rubber Band" based on your choice of best fuel prices, airspaces, water features, altitudes, TFR's etc etc. etc. Maybe you need to learn more about it to grasp it's abilities. Or watch some You tube video's, maybe even call the company support: Walter Boyd at IFYGPS. (a software developer too?). NO, It is not Garmin but it will do what you ask with most other operating systems and Auto Pilots to include Dynon, Advanced, and Grand Rapids. I love Garmin in all aspects except it often seems a bit too proprietary for the Experimental world. (My personal Opinion only). I use it extensively to plan my trips and then when I am happy with the result, I copy their "Real Plan" suggested Flight Plan over to my Garmin and launch.

 

[RV7A Flyer]

This is what I do as well.

I actually enjoy route planning even though I think others here think I'm trying to avoid it - or I'm lazy. My background is software development so any time I'm "rubber banding" the route around restricted airspace I think to myself "this software should do this for me". It's not rocket science and it's already done with ground based GPS units.

Seems to me that route planning for a *car* tends to stick to roads (even if it might include dirt ones, gravel ones, etc.). If the entire 2-dimensional surface of a city were available to it, though, and you simply wanted to tell it "avoid irregularly shaped areas around shopping malls", it might have more difficulty.

 

[bertschb]

It will do the flight plan routing under "REAL PLAN" just as you are asking for it to.

You're right!

I think my background in software development gets me in trouble some times. I expected to find what I was looking for under Settings or Setup under the main menu. That is where I would have put it. I did briefly look at the Flight Plan screen but I wasn't looking to create a flight plan - just a route from A to B so I didn't spend much time on that screen and didn't select More Options and then Real Plan. This wasn't intuitive to me and it's not how I would have implemented this functionality. HOWEVER, it works just like I wanted!!!! It even does Min AGL! Plus, you can tell the system that you don't have ADSB and it will route accordingly. Very, very cool!

The only thing missing is the ability to send the route to a Garmin navigator and autopilot and have it fly the route - including altitude changes along the route to maintain Min AGL.

Thanks so much for mentioning this software. I'm watching their YT tutorials now. I'll play around with it some more. Even though I can't send the route to my G3X, I can use it as a starting point for route planning. From there I can verify the route and tweak as needed to come up with a final plan.

 

[N40ES]

The only thing missing is being able to send the route to an autopilot and have it fly the route - including altitude changes along the route to maintain Min AGL.

I think it is only missing from Garmin Autopilots. The New EFB (still removable from a Base Unit) will wire direct to many other Autopilots and also there is a new communication via Bluetooth wireless as well. Any way, I am not in any way affiliated with IFLYGPS just a believer and big FAN. I am off the soapbox and back to the foxhole. Thanks for the great call-out too!

 

[Draker]

It's a good idea for VFR. Would be cool if you can just put in a starting airport, a destination airport, and have a bunch of controls like "Avoid Class B," "Avoid Class C," "Avoid MOAs" and so on. Maybe "Avoid remote terrain" and "Avoid large bodies of water". For routing, "Use VFR Waypoints" or "Use Victor Airways" or "Land for a break every N hours"... things like that. Just to start you off with a few waypoints if you've never planned a route in that area before.

 

[bertschb]

and have a bunch of controls like "Avoid Class B," "Avoid Class C," "Avoid MOAs" and so on. Maybe "Avoid remote terrain" and "Avoid large bodies of water".

Like this?

 

[rolivi]

I suspect aviation navigators and tablet apps will never have this feature for the simple reason it is worthless.

Let's say the Garmin brain trust figures it all out and builds it into some app someplace. They go to market with their customary pricing policies and all the early adapters buy in.

6 months later reality sets in: The flight plan is just a plan. ATC doesn't give a rats rump what this brilliant product came up with. Now the support pages and phones are swamped with reports that "the routes are always wrong."

 

[bertschb]

I suspect aviation navigators and tablet apps will never have this feature for the simple reason it is worthless...

iFLYGPS (tablet and Windows app) has this functionality already with their feature called "Real Plan". See post #27. It may be worthless to you but it's very worthwhile to other people. I don't do flight planning for ATC. I do it for myself.

What makes the "Real Plan" feature worthwhile for me is it can create the starting route far more quickly than I can. Among other things, it uses airspace and winds aloft as part of its calculation and will also select the most convenient refueling point based on fuel prices, fuel burn, etc. From that starting point I can modify it as needed.

Yes, I can do all of this manually. In fact, that's the only way I have ever done it. But, as a previous software developer and pilot, I feel all flight planning software should include this functionality as an option. It's the natural progression of navigators.

 

[rolivi]

I suppose if you fly mostly VFR there is some benefit. I'm sticking with my opinion for IFR.

 

[bertschb]

I suppose if you fly mostly VFR there is some benefit. I'm sticking with my opinion for IFR.

Oh I agree!