R

rwarre

Well Known Member
Today upon returning to my home airport, winds were 15 gusting to 20. Winds were 270 to 290. Runway in use was 35. I had no trouble lining up with runway, but a soon as I got close to touchdown, the wind would pick up my rv7a. I added power to stabilize the airplance, and had to start the flare procedure again. This happened about 3 or 4 times before I finally was able to get the wheels to stay on the runway. I am wondering if my approach was too fast, I did not use flaps at all. Any suggestions on technique would be appreciated. Thanks
 
My airplane floats in the flare if I don't use flaps regardless of crosswind. I know the general knowledge is to not use full flaps in a strong crosswind, but I'd use at least half flaps. It's not unusual to have to make a couple of attempts to get it to stick in gusty winds. Just keep flying it all the way.

-Andy
 
I second the use of flaps even though it goes against the grain. My 7 floats for days with no flaps.
 
Is just one wing ( the upwind wing) getting picked back up, or both symmetrically?

If it is just the upwind wing it is a crosswind technique issue.

If it is both symmetrically it is likely an airspeed and pitch control issue. And just the plane ole nature of gusty winds.

Using less, or no flaps is a technique for gusty conditions. ( i have not really heard of it for crosswinds that are steady, although there is really nothing wrong with it) It provides more speed, and more controlability to deal with the changing wind speeds. Also for a taildragger wheel landings are sometimes preferred for gusty conditions. (depends on experience level, in my opinion takes a bit more skill) Again the higher speed for controlability. However too aggressive of a crosswind technique in a wheel landing will leave the downwind wheel in the air and taking away the brake on that side to assist in stabilizing the yawning affect of a gust.

Edit: oops, just noticed the "a" in your rv-7. Disregard the wheel landing stuff.

Good luck, and practice.

Mark
 
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I use full flaps even in the strongest of crosswinds. This allows the plane to fly slower and reduces the risk of ground looping.

BTW, the strongest crosswind I have ever landed in was 32 knots and it took 73 feet of a 150 foot wide runway to do it. It wasn't pretty but it it worked.
 
Think about how little crosswind experience we have! Only a few minutes in many hours of flight. A couple years ago I got some time in the Xwind trainer at Indy. That was probably equal to a couple hundred hours of flight time. It could be money well spent. See http://www.redbirdflightsimulations.com/xwind/ The seat belts aren't there for looks, BTW. When they turn up turbulence, you need them. I just wish it had a stick instead of a yoke.

Bob
 
This is going to sound harsh, but that is not the intent...

The airplane does not do anything on its own. If its not tracking the runway, or floats, or picks up a wing, you are not providing the correct control inputs fast enough or agressively enough. How much control input is enough?

...whatever it takes!

Without flying with you, I think the best a forum response can tell you is simply to remind you that YOU are in control- not the wind, not the airplane, but YOU. Many people struggle with this concept at first, and I was one of them. To keep my head in the game during a particularly rough patch in my flying, I installed a "motivational slogan" right in my line of sight on the panel:

"Fly the airplane, stupid"

This sticker remains to this day.
 
Toobuilder said:
The airplane does not do anything on its own. If its not tracking the runway, or floats, or picks up a wing, you are not providing the correct control inputs fast enough or agressively enough. How much control input is enough?

...whatever it takes!
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Well said..... And part of the "whatever" is most certainly practice. If intimidated find someone who isn't to go with and babysit. I love going with newbies for crosswind practice. Seeing the light come on is fun.

Mark
 
Toobuilder said:
This is going to sound harsh, but that is not the intent...

The airplane does not do anything on its own. If its not tracking the runway, or floats, or picks up a wing, you are not providing the correct control inputs fast enough or agressively enough. How much control input is enough?

...whatever it takes!

Without flying with you, I think the best a forum response can tell you is simply to remind you that YOU are in control- not the wind, not the airplane, but YOU. Many people struggle with this concept at first, and I was one of them. To keep my head in the game during a particularly rough patch in my flying, I installed a "motivational slogan" right in my line of sight on the panel:

"Fly the airplane, stupid"

This sticker remains to this day.
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I'm not someone who claims heroic crosswind abilities, but in sporty wind conditions, I remind myself on short final "Active hands, active feet." You can't be passive in that situation.
 
good advice

thanks for all the input. More practice and stay in control are a couple of excellent suggestions.
 
I think the original poster KNOWS that he has to fly the airplane - he was asking for advice on how to do that.

There are several cross wind landing techniques. I don't have an RV, so I cannot comment on the use of flaps, but it sounds like something you could try. I agree, if you're floating, it sounds like you're carrying too much speed in the flair. Also understand, that in a stiff crosswind you don't want much of a flair; it's more of a fly the airplane to the ground type of landing. Active hands and feet is important too. Just curious, are you using a forward slip or crab technique on short final?

Tom
 
Coming from helicopters, landing was uncomfortable for me when I did my SEL add-on. Whenever I had the proper angle/sight picture, I felt like I was diving toward the runway vs. a slightly nose-up attitude in a helo - also unlearning the muscle memory of wanting to bleed off airspeed on final; doesn't work well in an airplane:eek:

Add cross-winds to the landing during my training, and I was very uncomfortable for a while. As a previous poster mentioned, practice really is the key. Practice will increase the confidence and in turn improve the landings and continue to increase your confidence. I find it analogous to learning to hover (only not as difficult). Initially you're thinking, WTH?! Eventually, you're watching your hands and feet make movements that you really aren't commanding. You are almost instantaneously responding to variations in aircraft movement, preventing that movement inertia from growing and getting out of hand. Very similar to handing the controls to a non-pilot and watching them chase altitude up and down constantly. They are not used to anticipating the aircraft movement and correcting for it; they can only react.

I would get up with an experienced friend, instructor, etc, and just practice - in a fun, non-threatening fashion. Also, IMO, a good technique is to extend downwind a little bit (if not interfering with traffic flow) and give yourself plenty of time to get stabilized and be able to recognize the wind's effect on your plane and corrections necessary to maintain centerline - understanding that mechanical turbulence may change this requirement significantly from initial final leg altitude to TCH.

While I agree with the above post, I believe most of the time it is not such a matter of technique, but of quick, responsive control input to prevent the plane from from getting out of shape while, at the same time, not over controlling. The slow, flowing control inputs that make a CC flight smooth and pleasant to a passanger do not work well during gusty landings. Check out some cockpit video of gusty approaches and look at the amount/rate of control inputs.

I find my RV-7A a poor cross-wind trainer because it handles cross-winds so well. That being said, I'll go back to what a previous poster said - fly the airplane; we make the aircraft control inputs. The RVs responsiveness allows the pilot to handle cross-winds very well.
 
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Av8torTom said:
I think the original poster KNOWS that he has to fly the airplane - he was asking for advice on how to do that...
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Tough to do on an Internet forum- After all, his technique may have been basically right for all we know.

...but when you hear a pilot say things like "...the wind picked up my airplane..." Then that is a pretty good indication said pilot does not yet have his head around the fact that he is responsible for aircraft control - not the wind or the airplane. Some pilots have a hard time making the mental leap from the gentle control inputs used during a calm wind approach to the almost violent, high deflection inputs sometimes called for. And that CAN be learned on the Internet, because it is an attitude - a mindset.

If you have a pilots certificate, you have been trained in proper crosswind technique... Beyond that its practice, yes... and just as important, the determination that you WILL make the airplane do what you want.

The Pitts airplane is often described as "twitchy". To that end, Curtis Pitts was said to say that "...there are no twitchy airplanes, only twitchy pilots...".
 
I have tried no/half/full flaps in steady/gusty crosswinds up to 25 kts in our -10. I wake my feet up on final, prefer full gross weight, prefer steep vs shallow approach angle, prefer full flaps for less flare duration, kick out the crab 75% through the flare, maintain centerline and ready to add a blip of power or full power if needed. In strong, gusty conditions your stick/pedals will be all over the place and to max deflection at times. It took my wife by surprise the first time. I always ensure my legs are the limiting factor for stick movement and not my little copilot's, so seat adjustment is very important for both of us in crosswinds. Find an alternate airport nearby with winds more aligned with runway just in case you need it. Take snacks/drinks in case you have to wait it out at the alternate. Have your tie down kit, gust locks and a car ride back home available. Watch for some "good wx" winds and go practice. Take a CFI if needed.
 
Kyle Boatright said:
I'm not someone who claims heroic crosswind abilities, but in sporty wind conditions, I remind myself on short final "Active hands, active feet." You can't be passive in that situation.
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The first time I ever flew in a small airplane was with an instructor on a "discovery flight" at the Robins AFB Aero Club. He pretty much let me land the plane (a Warrior) on my own. It was a little gusty that day (nothing bad, maybe 5g10 at 45 deg) and while on 3 mile final (we were landing on a 12000 x 300 ft runway talking to a USAF controller....). He was talking me through the landing, and at one point said, "don't be afraid to use the rudder" and gave the tail a BIG wag or two to show me that I wasn't going to break anything by using the rudders. It stuck with me, and it's something I'll occasionally do on final to remind myself to FTFA....
 
something I tried to impart on my students when teaching tailwheel students. first, if the airplane is moving from where you want it you are to slow on the controls. the movement needs to be stopped before it moves the airplane off the line you want it on. you need to be commanding it, not reacting to it. second, tricycle drivers are scared to put their foot all the way to the firewall if needed. rudder is not to slow down movement in the yaw axis, it is to stop it or reverse it.

some of this is brought on by instructors that have no idea how to really do a slip. I have seen some instructors that are afraid to cross control and airplane.

don't feel bad, I have flown with FO's that have no idea how to land in a crosswind in an airliner.

how do you get better at crosswinds? only three ways, practice, practice, and practice.


bob burns
rv-4 N82RB
 
LettersFromFlyoverCountry said:
I have found that the most important technique to use in cross winds is the go-around technique.
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Good to see this post.

On Monday, I was returning from my Biennial and the winds were 17G25 and variable. It was the "less desirable runway approach" (over tall trees into 1900'). I felt the wind really start to twitch and the bottom drop out. The big lever went forward pretty darn quick.
 
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My normal approach is a crab, then kick the tail out to a wing low in the flare. The crab, because it's coordinated and keeps the passengers comfortable as long as possible. However, if there is any question that the crosswind component will overpower the airplane, I will transition to the wing low method on short final and see how much rudder I have left. If I can maintain centerline and still have some rudder power available, then I continue. OTOH, if the rudder is on the stop just to maintain centerline or worse, it's drifting, it?s time for plan B.

Once I got myself stuck on landing at one airport and my only "plan B" was to land diagonally on the runway - using every inch of the width. Fortunately, that reduced my effective crosswind component enough that I had sufficient rudder power to get it down and stopped.

It was safe and without damage, but was anything but pretty.
 
flyboykelly said:
Go get some tailwheel time. You'll have a whole new outlook on crosswind landings.
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Walkman Likes this :D

The best thing I have find for myself to improve x wind technique is to go fly when others aren't. It may not always be pleasant. On days when there's a stiff wind, find the local airport with the greatest cross wind component, go do some touch and goes or better, full stop landings. Its something I'm doing myself right now, trying to brush up rusty skills.
 
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rwarre said:
Today upon returning to my home airport, winds were 15 gusting to 20. Winds were 270 to 290. Runway in use was 35. I had no trouble lining up with runway, but a soon as I got close to touchdown, the wind would pick up my rv7a. I added power to stabilize the airplance, and had to start the flare procedure again. This happened about 3 or 4 times before I finally was able to get the wheels to stay on the runway. I am wondering if my approach was too fast, I did not use flaps at all. Any suggestions on technique would be appreciated. Thanks
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One thing to be aware of in crosswind technique, is the landscape off the airport. It contributes -- often mightily -- to what you're experiencing in the last few feet and the runway.

There might be trees clustered off to one side, with a break, followed by some buildings. Guess where the surface wind is going to be problematic in relation to the runway.

So depending on where you're flying into, have a good look at what's going on within a 1/2 mile of the airport and you can often adjust your approach to compensate for that, either landing short or landing long.

In many ways, it's like accounting for wake turbulence.
 
After reading this thread, I had a perfect chance today to put it into practice. Not in an RV, sadly, just a lowly 172, but... still. Wind was all over the place. When I started out it was 170 06G17, then 180 08G17, then 190 07G18. Perfect for a low time pilot practicing crosswind landings, right?

The first one I tried with full flaps. Bad idea. It was ugly but nothing bent, I was just glad nobody was watching. After that I was using about 15 degrees of flaps and maintaining a little higher approach speed than usual, but concentrating on using whatever control inputs were needed to keep the airplane where I wanted it. I probably used more control deflection than I'd used any time since demonstrating a forward slip on my check ride, but I felt like I was much more "in control" and less "reacting". Three times I got caught by strong gusts just as I flared or just before touchdown. Twice I got a good bounce and some go-around practice, the third time it happened I added some throttle, stabilized it and "FTFA" for what ended up being a pretty nice landing.

So, guys, thanks for all the advice given here, it came in handy. I was dreading crosswind landings, now I'm looking forward to getting more practice. I made a big improvement in an hour today, but I know I've got a lot of room to improve.
 
More info

Great helpful comments. Here is more info as I remember that landing. I talked to another pilot who was with an instructor flying a Cessna 172 who commented that the rudded pedals were pushed to the firewall. They ended up landing on a gravel strip which was a little more toward the wind. During the landing in my RV7A, my feet and hands were all very active. Also hand on the throttle the whole way. As the wheels would touch the ground I felt like a gust would pick up the plane rather than it floating along. I added a little power so not to slam onto the runway. Again I would get the plane aligned and start the same procedure all over. I never lost control of the craft, just could not stabilize it enough to let it settle down. I use the low wing/opposite rudder technique and see if I can keep the plane straight down the runway before I actually have to set down. I have done several crosswind landing, this one seemed more violent that some. I live on the Colorado plains where winds are common and have a chance to practice.
 
Well, sometimes they are just rough, no matter how active you are on the controls. There certainly are physical limits to control authority (as the 172 driver apparently found out), so the best you can do is make sure you are able to use ALL of the capability available from the airplane. If that's not enough, you go to Plan B.
 
Cross wind

I like the guy who says " I ran out of rudder " , he most likely ran out of "Skill " not rudder .
Tom
 
Maybe

g zero said:
I like the guy who says " I ran out of rudder " , he most likely ran out of "Skill " not rudder .
Tom
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Reminds me of my commercial flight test in a 172RG. Examiner called for a power off spot landing, with a pretty good crosswind blowing. I did okay tracking centerline and touching down just past the called for spot, but touched down in a slight crab. We take off again, examiner takes the controls, says "Let me show you how to do that.". He does the exact same thing.
"Not much rudder authority in this plane, is there?" is his only comment.

Seriously, most tailwheel aircraft have powerful rudders (for good reason) but some trikes are genuinely lacking.
 
There's a lot more to it than simply having "enough rudder", of course. You may have a ton of rudder, but run out of bank angle on a low wing aircraft (wingtip on ground). The Christen Eagle comes to mind. You might also have a "powerful rudder" but a huge fin that drives you to weathervane - Stinson 108-3 or a triple tail Bellanca come to mind.

Since we occupy the real world, "skill" will eventually bow to physics. Our goal as pilots is to use the machine to its limit, but also recognize when even that is not going to be good enough.
 
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rwarre said:
Great helpful comments. Here is more info as I remember that landing. I talked to another pilot who was with an instructor flying a Cessna 172 who commented that the rudded pedals were pushed to the firewall. They ended up landing on a gravel strip which was a little more toward the wind. During the landing in my RV7A, my feet and hands were all very active. Also hand on the throttle the whole way. As the wheels would touch the ground I felt like a gust would pick up the plane rather than it floating along. I added a little power so not to slam onto the runway. Again I would get the plane aligned and start the same procedure all over. I never lost control of the craft, just could not stabilize it enough to let it settle down. I use the low wing/opposite rudder technique and see if I can keep the plane straight down the runway before I actually have to set down. I have done several crosswind landing, this one seemed more violent that some. I live on the Colorado plains where winds are common and have a chance to practice.
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Yep, sometimes the gusts are so turbulent we just have to accept a rough arrival. It isn't necessarily the wind speed, but wind quality.

When arriving at my home airport on 36 with a strong (19 gusting 26) wind from 280, the wind is incredibly turbulent from rotoring over the tall buildings of the college adjacent to the runway. It can be almost impossible to time the abrupt up and down motions of the RV-6 to make a noiseless arrival.


g zero said:
I like the guy who says " I ran out of rudder " , he most likely ran out of "Skill " not rudder .
Tom
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The small-tail RV-6 can most definitely run out of rudder, and it only takes about 15-18 kts crosswind component to have the rudder pedal bottomed out if the plane is kept aligned with the center line. The -6 can be landed with a less than perfect runway alignment but it won't be our most graceful landing. :)
 
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I usually crab until passing the threshold. From that point on I use runway center line as my guide. I use aileron and rudder to glide down over the center line and have nose pointed to the end of the runway. As soon as I am off, I move the stick to come back. Keep a slightly nose high attitude and not pulling nose up quickly. When I run out of control, it is time to go around. With the big rudder (7, 8 & 9), the plane can take a lot of crosswind. Under gusty condition, it is busy work! Like others have said, fly the airplane and don't just take a ride.

When you have the chance pick a crosswind runway and do slow flights a foot or so over the runway centerline. If you can track the centerline well, just hold the attitude and pull the power. Although it is not a full stall landing, you will have a good crosswind landing.

Airspeed should be the same as no wind landing, except add 1/2 gust.
 
Sam Buchanan said:
The small-tail RV-6 can most definitely run out of rudder, and it only takes about 15-18 kts crosswind component to have the rudder pedal bottomed out if the plane is kept aligned with the center line. The -6 can be landed with a less than perfect runway alignment but it won't be our most graceful landing. :)
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Sam & Michael are both right on here and there is no simple panacea of technique that will work across all RV's. The small tail 6's WILL flat run out of rudder exactly where Sam says and it doesn't even take that much effort. That said, if you put a -9 rudder on a -6 then it IS possible to drag a wingtip on the ground (ask me how I know), but that big stab is a weathervane. The mid sized 7/8 rudder almost match the capabilty of the plane in crosswinds, and will many times outperform the pilot. I've seen both TD's and nosewheels landed in winds that freak out a DC9, yet seen people almost out of control with 5 kts of Xwind. Also, don't forget that if you have really tight tire clearance on your pants....it's also relatively easy to catch a tire (again, ask me how I know) during gusty touchdowns. It's probably a good thing that youtube wasn't around during some of my less elegant arrivals!

I have no good answer to this dilemma because there are SO many variables to take in to account. Kind of like wheelies vs 3 points in the wind for TD drivers...no silver bullet for 100% of the time.

Just my 2 cents as usual.

Cheers,
Stein
 
I frequently like to fly at about 1' above the runway, for as long as the runway allows, before touching down. The runways at my home airport are about 5000', so I can easily fly for 3000' down the runway. This might last 20 or 30 seconds, giving me much more practice than the normal few seconds one spends at that location. I find it really helps in the never ending learning of coordinating the flight controls and power. Find a long runway and variable crosswinds, and you might be impressed with how much you can learn through this technique.

Humorous side note: The controller will typically tell me while I'm in the pattern, on clearing me for landing, that I can roll to the end and then taxi to the hangar. So, while I'm flying down the runway, they'll call me and mention the turnout. I of course call back saying I need to first land...
 
This is a very entertaining thread to come to late in the game with little else to contribute. I can relate to about 70% of the comments. "Don't worry, I'm a pilot!" works sometimes, other times, quiet concentration and planning / skill building work too. I've done both with various levels of success given the day, from the "heroic" to "no excuse".

We've spent many a day when nobody else would fly, entertaining the tower as we stayed in the pattern on the crosswind runway for an hour. Result = pouring pilot1+pilot2 > Sat_afternoon_nap.
 
Crosswinds

Randy, I can't speak for a 7 but I regularly fly my 6 off a field where crosswinds are an issue. In my 6 I almost always land full flaps which seems to work well even in a strong crosswind. Although that is not what I was taught during my PPL training I did get in the habit of landing full flaps while glider towing to make out trips as quick as possible. Years back when I was really fighting crosswind landings, I had a very good pilot take me up and while practicing, he had me get my cross controls in early so I had a stabilized approach and I was already used to the cross controls when I flared. That seemed to help me alot. I do notice when on the approach it is sometimes hard to get everything lined up perfect but once in the flare and speed drops off more it seems to work fine.

As someone else said, get some training from an instructor to better your technique and you will find the plane behave fairly well even in a strong crosswind.

Goodluck
 
I didn't mention it, but as the previous poster, I also use full flaps. If nothing else, it makes it easier to see over the nose during final touchdown phase, allowing for more precise corrections.
 
n5lp said:
I'm another guy that always uses full flaps and I like it that way.
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Agree. Full flaps minimizes your exposure to floating, getting you on the ground faster, with less susceptibility to getting pushed around feeling for the runway. If you're going to use flaps at all, I don't understand not using all of them...unless there's a control surface blanking issue. Some seem to think you're more likely to get tossed around by the wind using full flaps. Well, if you're only using partial flaps, you're just as susceptible. Adding more than partial flaps only adds drag, not additional lift. I like maximum energy dissipation during landing - wind, gusts, calm, doesn't matter.
 
Cross wind landings

I go back aways, but in a Champ on cross wind landings a side slip was used to parellel the run way if you could not hold it you tried another runway. I have found in my RV4 with half flaps, that a well developed side slip is the best way to judge if you can hold a heading of the runway in any cross wind, you play it down to the runway and cheat. Angle a little into the wind on touch down depending on the width of the runway.:rolleyes:
 
Ron's terminology is correct.
Of course a slip is a slip to the airplane, the different names just apply to the pilot's perspective.
Forward slip airplane tracks the desired ground track, nose points elsewhere.
Side slip nose points in desired direction, ground track moves to one side (to be counterbalanced by the wind, on a x-wind landing).
 
Sometimes it helps to tell the pilot not to hold the plane in the desired attitude, but instead to constantly rock the wings, wiggle the nose left-right and up down, all just a little bit. For some it seems to help to reinforce the "hands and feet alive" idea.

Btw, I also prefer full flaps for landing.
 
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