Tim 8-A

Tim 8-A

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I have been lucky so far this year with crosswind. This last week is the first real opportunity I have had with any major crosswind takeoff's.
The landing's are not a problem. The takeoff is where my problem is, I am all over the runway.
I was wondering if most of you use rudder or brake to adjust?
My take off configuration is, Flaps full aileron, full power immediately, I have an A and don't use the nose gear except for taxi, so I am normally off of it in the first 50 ft.
I'm not sure if this is part of the problem or not.
any suggestions?
 
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technique

Everybody has their own techniques for crosswind T/O. With my 7A, I find putting ailerons into the wind and then a gradual application of power works best for me. Doing a full power brake release means I have to make aggressive corrections to stay on centerline which tends to cause overshoots and wandering around the runway. The gradual power application allows me to make small corrections to hold centerline. Practice also helps:D

Chuck Olsen
TSP
RV-7A
 
take off

agree. gradual application of power gives you the ability to have more rudder authority. If you want a handful, even with no wind, cob the throttle in the RV's--lotsa torque, p factor, no real rudder control initially. for cross winds, full aileron, flaps as appropriate, gradual addition of power, and as you rotate, takeout the 'extra' aileron. I would keep it on the ground a little longer with gusty winds. Unless you are at high altitude, and very short runway, there really is never a need for immediate full throttle in RV. Probably not good for engine anyway. This worked well for my 7A and -10. IMHO
 
Flaps?

Why are you using flaps on takeoff? I find that half flaps are only needed on short/soft field takeoffs. Even at max gross weight, flaps are not needed on most takeoffs.
 
Hi Tim...

Agree with the others....gently feed in the throttle for more positive control. One thing I do in the Air Tractor, if it's near a 90* crosswind is take off with the wind from your right. This will dramatically lessen the amount of rudder needed...might even take some left rudder.

Regards,
 
I agree with Chuck and the others. There is no good reason for "everyday flight" to get off the run way in 50'. Easy does it! Treat the plane with TLC and it will take care of you. Another good reason for gradual application of engine power is you have much less of a chance to pick up rocks & debris with the prop.

Start out on the center line and hold it there. Try using 600' - 1,000' of runway for practice. Use brakes until you have good rudder control, then use the rudder for directional control during take off. No flaps. Stay on the centerline.

Try these new techniques and lets us know how it goes.

Remember IMHO, there is no such thing as a perfect landing or takeoff. Flying is like being a doctor or a lawyer. We are simply "practicing" the art of flying and practice keeps our skills current. Analyzing our techniques by asking questions on VAF keeps the "continuing education" fresh and viable.

Good thread! I'm gonna go practice my take offs now!
 
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Tim 8-A said:
I have been lucky so far this year with crosswind. This last week is the first real opportunity I have had with any major crosswind takeoff's.
The landing's are not a problem. The takeoff is where my problem is, I am all over the runway.
I was wondering if most of you use rudder or brake to adjust?
My take off configuration is, Flaps full aileron, full power immediately, I have an A and don't use the nose gear except for taxi, so I am normally off of it in the first 50 ft.
I'm not sure if this is part of the problem or not.
any suggestions?
Click to expand...

Off in the first 50'? That is a problem.

Most of the good techniques for a cross wind take off have been noted, minimum flaps, gradual power application, some aileron into the wind....I would add just a little forward stick pressure to keep the nose down until speed is up to where you can break ground cleanly and quickly and not skip along being blown sideways. Seldom is brake needed for steering with prop blast across the rudder.

Like the guys say, practice, practice...etc...go back to the basics.
 
No flap, full or close to full aileron deflection, gradual power application. Force the nose down until rotation speed then quick pull back and off she comes. Since I am a firm believer in protecting the nose wheel, this is the only situation where I do not pull the nose wheel up early in the take off run and keep it there until lift off. It needs to be a decent cross wind for me to have to employ this technique.

EDIT: I guess David (previous post) and I were posting at the same time as he basically said the same thing!
 
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You should try crosswind takeoffs with no flaps. I think you will surprised at what a difference it makes. Same is true with landings---the increased speeds associated with no flap takeoffs and landings improve the ratio between your forward speed and the crosswind, in effect, lessening the effective crosswind.

Lee...
 
I agree with Larry and most of the others. I have never taken off with a strong direct x-wind from the left. Might have to some day, but not looking forward to it... On strong direct right x-wind, I may start a bit downwind of center (wide runway) as I know I may weathervane some. I use full aileron at the start of the roll, slacking off as speed builds. I apply power over maybe a two-second time, don't lift the nose quite as much as normal, and rotate at a slightly higher airspeed, and more abruptly. I don't use flaps. I don't think I have ever seen a strong x-wind without some gusts.

I agree--x-wind takeoffs are harder than landings, at least for me. The rudder has lots of power, but requires a good touch. I try not to use brakes on t/o but sure use them on taxi!

Bob Kelly
 
X-wind takeoffs

It sounds like you are trying to hurry through a situation you are not comfortable with, hence, flaps, full power, immediate rotation! Learn to fly the plane with a gradual throttle increase, some aileron correction and use the rudder to maintain centerline. As you add power gently take some of the pressure off of the nosewheel and use the rudder and ailerons to maintain centerline.

I also see the opposite with crosswind landings with nose gear pilots as they want to force the plane on the ground. Keep the nosewheel off of the ground as you touch down as that gives you more rudder control and it is a lot easier on the plane. Find a nice wide runway on a calm wind day and practice landing on first one wheel and then the other while staying on the centerline.

Happy flying!

Randy Utsey
RV-7 / N55CU
Charlotte, N.C.
 
I think part of the problem, too, in both situations, is focusing in too close to the aircraft. While you're in the air you're fine, no problem handling the crosswind? I found that taking off required focusing down the length of the runway (hard to do with the nose obscuring your vision) or I tended to swerve all over the place. This was exactly the same thing that dogged my landings as a student pilot, with the accompaniment of my instructor reminding me to look all the way to the end of the runway.

That said, I'm going to chime in with the smooth and gradual folks. My general technique is to keep the nose wheel just off the runway until the airplane is ready to fly and then, once I'm in ground effect, tuck the nose until about 90 knots for cruise climb (mountain airport surrounded by trees; you do not want to go staggering into the air here). At 7000' elevation, I'd say the wheels leave the ground in 500' no flap and I'm over the proverbial 25' obstacle withing 1000'. Very few places require the short/soft field technique and you'll be more stable without it, not to mention taking it easier on your engine.
 
A different view

No flaps - I only use flaps for landing and I do pull the nose off right away. I apply power smoothly but I go directly to full power. If you don't have trouble with crosswind landings It is surprising that you have difficulty with cross wind takeoffs - they are a non-event. If the wind is really high like 45 mph across the runway I get on the lee side of the runway and point the nose across the runway toward the windward side a few hundred feet down the runway and plan to be off before I run out of cross pavement. Depending on how the wind is carrying me back across the runway I use brake and rudder for correction as required. You need to fly it off just like flying it on for landing doing whatever you need to do to maintain runway alignment control between the side boundaries - don't sweat the centerline in a difficult crosswind situation - until you are flying then you just fly like always.

Bob Axsom
 
Crosswind component

45 mph crosswinds?? Wow!

I'm curious as to what others have seen as a demonstrated crosswind component that they have been successful with in your RV's (or unsuccessful--although hopefully no one has learned that the hard way:eek:).

Please specify tricycle vs. conventional, as there is certainly a significant difference, at least in theory.

Troy
 
videobobk said:
I agree with Larry and most of the others. I have never taken off with a strong direct x-wind from the left. Might have to some day, but not looking forward to it... On strong direct right x-wind, I may start a bit downwind of center (wide runway) as I know I may weathervane some. I use full aileron at the start of the roll, slacking off as speed builds. I apply power over maybe a two-second time, don't lift the nose quite as much as normal, and rotate at a slightly higher airspeed, and more abruptly. I don't use flaps. I don't think I have ever seen a strong x-wind without some gusts.

I agree--x-wind takeoffs are harder than landings, at least for me. The rudder has lots of power, but requires a good touch. I try not to use brakes on t/o but sure use them on taxi!

Bob Kelly
Click to expand...

Agreed that crosswinds from the left are much more difficult. The key is that if you must takeoff in those conditions, go easy. Get the aircraft rolling, and slowly add power to increase speed as rudder authority increases. If you hammer it, you'll head for the weeds. In nearly 700 hours, I can remember two sporty takeoff's in my RV-6. Both were in strong left crosswinds.
 
This is all good info. The cross wind I normally deal with is from the left.
I want to clarify I don't rotate in 50 ft. I just pull the nose gear off at 50 ft.
When doing my transition training my instructor was insistent on never using the nose gear excepts for taxi.(get it up as quick as possible). Same thing on landing keep it off until slow roll.
I went out to the field this morning unfortunately no crosswind to practice with but I did try gradually applying power without flaps, I have better rudder control in the first 100 ft and it seemed to help.
I still wonder if flaps are needed in calm wind conditions or not? I know they are not needed to get the plane off the ground but do they help get the nose wheel up quicker.
 
Drift angle on mains

I've learned that in strong crosswind takeoffs in my 6A, I need to have the nose pointing a little upwind to keep the plane on center line during the takeoff roll. The only way to counter the side loads of the crosswind is for the mains to have a small drift angle with respect to the aircraft's direction (crabbing on the ground, if you will), until such time that the downwind wing can be lifted. The rudder's force is probably a very small component of the counter force to the wind, as compared to the side load on the tires. If one keeps the nose pointed directly down the runway, the plane will move off center line towards the lee side. Either way, the mains have a side load to counter the wind. I prefer to keep it on the runway center as opposed to drifting downwind. This does feel a bit strange though.
 
Tim, in reference to your last post, flaps don't help get your nose up at all in the takeoff. Your nose comes up when you have control authority on the elevators. It doesn't take a lot; I even hold back elevator when taxiing because you can feel the elevators lighten the load on the nosegear even at taxi speeds. If anything, I'd expect the flaps would help plant the nose by creating an upward force aft of the CG. Notice how you pitch down in flight when you add flaps.

The purpose of flaps in a short/soft field takeoff is not to help get your nose up, it's to provide more lift at lower speed so you can get the entire airplane off the runway sooner. Once the wheels are off the ground, the airplane accelerates quicker than it would in a normal takeoff, even with a notch of flaps.
 
Throttle application

I usually get to full throttle around liftoff...even at 6800'. What's the hurry?
 
I guess I'm different from some of the other guys here. I don't think keeping the nosewheel on the ground really helps at all. It's a free castoring nosewheel. Although there is some resistance there I don't think it's going to help much with the airplane wanting to weathervane into the wind. I always, always, always get the nosewheel off the ground pronto. Crosswinds are no biggie. It seems like if the wind is blowing at my home base it's always blowing at 310 and our runway is oriented 25/7. I always get the nosewheel up and use traditional x/wind technique, including ailerons into the wind, etc. I like going full power quickly. The full power allows the rudder to be more effective more quickly.

I have never used flaps on take-off.
 
Lots of crosswind practice on Sunday

pierre smith said:
Agree with the others....One thing I do in the Air Tractor, if it's near a 90* crosswind is take off with the wind from your right. This will dramatically lessen the amount of rudder needed...might even take some left rudder.
Click to expand...

It was suppose to be a nice day Sunday but the wind picked up much higher than I had anticipated, consequently I got a lot of crosswind practice. I had a chance to try 90 to 80 degree, 15+ mph crosswinds from the left and right. The right 90 TO was definitely smooth and respectable. The only issue was a little skidding sideways once the tail came up (tail dragger). The TO with an 80 degree Was not as pretty.

I would like Pierre's opinion on how much of a tailwind component is reasonable in choosing a right crosswind vs a left crosswind. Here is the situation I found myself in. I flew into Kentland, IN for fuel. They have a 09/27 runway. After fueling the wind sock was standing straight out from approximately 190, estimated at 15G20+. I considered using runway 09 with slight tailwind factor in order to keep the wind on the right side. Instead I choice 27 with an 80 degree crosswind on the nose. The best way I can put it is the TO was not one to be proud of. Pierre, would you consider this situation "near 90" and would recommend taking 09 instead of 27?
 
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As an old instructor once told me...

Use the ailerons to steer the plane and the rudder to keep it straight.

If you do that on takeoff (and landing) all will be good. I was always taught to start with full aileron deflection (Climb into and dive away from the relative wind when on the ground) and gradually take it out as needed to keep the plane on the centerline. Use the rudder to keep the plane lined up with the direction of travel.
 
WhiskeyMike said:
Can you please explain more precisely what you mean? Thanks!
Click to expand...

Say the wind is coming from the three o'clock position. The stick should back and to the right as you start your takeoff roll (or when taxiing). As the speed builds up, you can reduce your control inputs as needed to keep the plane on the centerline.

When taxiing, say the wind is blowing from the 8 o'clock position; the stick should be down and to the right (diving away). Say when you are taxiing to the end of the runway for takeoff.

Mike, go to the POH download page and grab my RV-9 POH. On page 16 there is a taxi diagram that explains it. (Or will be, as soon as Doug uploads the version I just sent him.)
 
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N941WR said:
Say the wind is coming from the three o'clock position. The stick should back and to the right as you start your takeoff roll (or when taxiing). As the speed builds up, you can reduce your control inputs as needed to keep the plane on the centerline.

When taxiing, say the wind is blowing from the 8 o'clock position; the stick should be down and to the right (diving away). Say when you are taxiing to the end of the runway for takeoff.
Click to expand...

Thanks Bill...it was the distinction in your reference between taking off (climbing into) and taxiing (diving away) that was unclear to me. And of course, I agree with your recommendation! ;)
 
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