[Bryan Wood]

With the TFR's, ADIZ's, etc., this hit me kind of wierd when I read it. With the current airspace grabs taking place in the name of security this seems very odd to be taking place. What do you all think?

http://www.avweb.com/newswire/12_06a/briefs/191524-1.html

Regards,

 

[n468ac]

only in america

 

[jcoloccia]

This could make for some interesting TV. A stall-speed chase through the Los Angeles VFR Corridor...

 

[joe gremlin]

I wonder how he got a medical?

 

[ww2planes]

Astonishing

As a law enforcement officer who has spent the last three years locating and jailing mid to high level drug traffickers I find this amazing. I have found that there is little to no accountability or tracking by the FAA regarding student pilots. You are not tracked or publicized until after you have obtained the certificate. I have encountered this several times. I have had reports of subjects that get their student rating and are just riding the student status to fly wherever they feel. They get just enough info to be dangerous and use it without any accountability.

Very frustrating when things like this are going on.

N-7BA

 

[Highflight]

Yea, if they want to rehabilitate the guy, they should sign him up for a shop class that, as a project, builds an RV.

At least then they could keep an eye on him, and he might even make parole by the time he puts in about 4000 building hours.

What I'd like to know is: Who's paying for his flight instruction and aircraft use? Don't anyone dare tell me that taxpayers are.

 

[rv8ch]

Inmate takes flying lessons

Taken from: http://www.corrections.com/news/didyouknow/

Inmate Takes Flying Lessons
WOWT News

An Omaha man nearing the end of his sentence for motor vehicle homicide has been granted permission to take flying lessons, including solo flights. Barry Greg Caughlin was granted permission to take flying lessons and even fly solo to receive a private pilot's license -- all while he was a Nebraska inmate.
At least one veteran lawman says that kind of rehabilitation goes too far.
"He's under the supervision of a flight instructor," said Ryan Mahr of Community Corrections. "He has to file a flight plan and the plane is on radar, so we felt we could account for him while he was out of the facility on the program."
Caughlin has served more than four years for motor vehicle homicide. He had been drinking when he crashed his vehicle into a father and son, killing them in 1999.
His driver?s license is revoked until 2011 but the FAA says he can still obtain a pilot's license.
"And the reason he can't operate a motor vehicle is past behavior and concern of the judgment used," said Elkhorn Police Chief Tim Dempsey. "Then it doesn't make sense the person should have a pilot's license."
Before approving the request for an inmate to get flying lessons, the staff at OCC contacted the FAA and informed the government Caughlin is nearing the end of his sentence for motor vehicle homicide. Still, the FAA approved pilot training.
FAA spokesperson Elzabeth Cory says, "We take these issues very, very seriously."
She says there's a review of the details of the case and the individual must give complete disclosure of the facts and detailed current treatment and sobriety. Corrections officials say Caughlin earned the privilege of pursing a career in aviation. Inmates are carefully screened for educational release and pay their own way through school. They also must always pass a breath test. Though granting flying lessons is a first, correction officials say when it came to protecting the public, nothing was left up in the air.
Corrections officials say that since his driver's license is revoked, Caughlin would ride his bicycle from the work release center to a bus stop, and then take a bus to the Millard Airport for flying lessons.

I don't know any details of the case, but I have to say I'm happy to see that the prison system in Nebraska is doing more than just warehousing people during their sentences. We've got to live with these people once they've served their sentence, and I'd prefer that they have some skills that can help them lead a productive life in the "real world".

 

[Nosferav8r]

There's enough information in the linked article for me to say... kudos. Honestly, I may be in the minority here but I actually think it's pretty positive.

Granted, I don't know any more about his case than any of us here, but it seems like he's in jail for a stupid accident. He got drunk and got behind the wheel... it was just a crying shame someone had to die in his case. However, it still remains that he made a really dumb mistake, a really tragic mistake, and one that has consequences he'll live with for the rest of his life. I mean, he killed his own son in that accident... it follows that in all probability he's not going to do anything that stupid again. It was also 7 years ago... I'm sure he's had plenty of time to sit in his cell and think about what he did.

I, for one applaud this action. It's not like he's sitting in his cell rotting, he's actually making a solid attempt to better himself and I think the fact that he has kept his promise to return after each flight shows significant responsiblity.

There'll be the usual people who will scream "FOUL" at this because "... he could kill lots of people with an airplane... look at September 11th!" but we as aviators need to look well beyond that and realize that he's learning to fly in an aircraft that has about as much effect on a building should they meet that a dragonfly has on my windshield at 60 mph: Sticky, ugly mess but my car's not about to explode on impact.

 

[dgrayent]

So, this guy wants a career in aviation by starting flying lessons AFTER a DUI and a vehicular homicide conviction

From the get-go his "aviaiton career" is DOOMED -- at least in any LEGAL, respectable aspect. What 'ta heck are those officials thinking in their "rehabilitative ivory towers"!
Would any of you want to trust this guy with a King Air under 121?

Disgusted,

Don Gray

 

[joe gremlin]

So, this guy wants a career in aviation by starting flying lessons AFTER a DUI and a vehicular homicide conviction

From the get-go his "aviaiton career" is DOOMED

Absolutely. I think opportunities in aviation will be very limited with a fatal DWI conviction in your past. Aviation jobs aside, I know of at least one flying club that won't even let you fill out an application for membership if you have any DWIs or felony convictions.

I agree that it's good to see programs of this type that give people a better shot at getting their lives on track after they're released. At the same time perhaps I'm being closed minded but I fail to see how a private pilot certificate will help anyone with a DWI conviction and prison time in their past find any kind of gainful employment.

 

[rv8ch]

What does flying teach?

... I fail to see how a private pilot certificate will help anyone with a DWI conviction and prison time in their past find any kind of gainful employment.

One of the most important things you have to learn to be a (good) pilot is that you alone are responsible for what happens. If this guy learns that from his flight training, even if he does not get his PPL or go on to fly 777s to Tokyo, I think he will be better off, and as a consequence, so will the rest of us.

In any case, he's paying for the training. He could have wasted the money on something useless.

 

[Hawkeye7A]

Peace of mind?

A friend here at work raised what I feel may be a significant point: I don't know about the rest of you but I get a very relaxing feeling of peace when I fly. I don't know how I would cope with having killed my own son because of a stupid mistake I made. However, I surely can see how flying may help me regain/retain some sense of usefulness and accomplishment (and sanity) whether or not I operated the aircraft in a commercial endeavor. JMHO

--hawk

 

[kevinh]

One of the most important things you have to learn to be a (good) pilot is that you alone are responsible for what happens. If this guy learns that from his flight training, even if he does not get his PPL or go on to fly 777s to Tokyo, I think he will be better off, and as a consequence, so will the rest of us.

In any case, he's paying for the training. He could have wasted the money on something useless.

Well said!

 

[Nosferav8r]

Maybe I missed it, but nowhere in the article did I see mention that he wished to pursue aviation as a career. Not everyone who flies even has an intention of becoming a professional... I'd think in this forum more than anywhere we'd recognize that.

I have my PPL and an IFR ticket with wet ink... I have absolutely no intention of pursuing it further than that because I'm quite happy in my day job in computers. Flying is my hobby... there it'll stay if I have anything to say about it. Perhaps this guy has the same goal as me.

 

[L.Adamson]

i*only serving 5-7 years for KILLING TWO INNOCENT PEOPLE..HOLY CRAP YOU ARE KIDDING ME lets all give him a great big hug and tell him its ok to not be responsible for your action's he should rot in jail or be put to death....man what about the victims? whrere does this sympathy for wreckless drunks come from ?yea it is stupid but you are responsible for you actions period.

Let's divide this statement up for what it really is....

Being drunk and reckless----- no excuse

Killing two innocent people "intentionally" --- not hardly

Giving big hugs & saying it's okay ---- no one is doing that, are they?

L.Adamson

 

[grover]

a possibility

I'd suggest organ donation would be a good way for this turkey to try to amend a little tiny bit for his egregious lack of judgement.

 

[Jerry Kinman]

Unbelieveable

I must start by saying I respect anyone's opinion, no matter how misguided it may be. The Opra-watching do-gooders seemed to have overlooked the fact that a license to fly is a priviledge, not a constitutional right. There are standards that must be met, one of which is moral character. That may sound unreasonable to some but it was included in the licensing requirements for a very good reason. Propelling a ton of metal or plastic through the same airspace that is used for public transportation requires considerably more maturity, judgement and responsibility than driving your Honda around the highways. In today's anything-goes society where a child rapist gets only a 60 day jail sentence and convicted child molesters get pardoned by departing presidents the FAA still gets serious about felony convictions when it comes to medical applications. Even intentionally falsifying applications can lead to up to 5 years imprisonment and/or up to $250,000 in fines. This guy better be thankful he is from a state like Nebraska where they are soft on crime.

If he really wants to use his talents he will move to Massachussets and run for the Senate.

Doug, thanks for the soap box. I feel better now.

 

[redbeardmark]

less desirable alternatives

One of the most important things you have to learn to be a (good) pilot is that you alone are responsible for what happens. If this guy learns that from his flight training, even if he does not get his PPL or go on to fly 777s to Tokyo, I think he will be better off, and as a consequence, so will the rest of us.

In any case, he's paying for the training. He could have wasted the money on something useless.

Agreed. He could have worked on a law degree and started suing "the system"-- which, by the way, is us.

He was tried and convicted by a jury of his peers. He was sentenced to prison(capital punishment was probably not one of the judge's options for vehicular manslaughter) and is serving time. That is how our system works.

Apparently, there is no law against this person flying an airplane. If folks don't like that, they should petition the legislature to change it.

 

[w1curtis]

Least ye be judged!

.. The Opra-watching do-gooders seemed to have overlooked the fact that a license to fly is a priviledge, not a constitutional right. There are standards that must be met, one of which is moral character. That may sound unreasonable to some but it was included in the licensing requirements for a very good reason. ...

The requirement for "sound moral character" only applies for the ATP certificate-for as you say-good reason. Can you cite where it is required elsewhere?

I can't say I watch Oprah, but before we are so quick to judge, lets pose the situation a little differently. Lets say you are a VFR pilot that stumbles into IMC over a city and crashed in a city block killing folks on the ground. Aren't the folks just as dead? A few years ago a IFR pilot (also CFI rated) took off at Linden airport in NJ with a bad Turn Coordinator and after a gyro failure, did this very thing.

While not justifying DUI and/or vehicular homicide, the only thing this guy did differently it seems was to survive. So now that he is alive, how should he function in society?

Note: I always found it odd, that some are afraid to fly IFR over mountains in a single, but give no thought to doing the same over a city.

 

[kevinh]

While I appreciate the reasoned (ahem) response below. I think any discussion of sentencing in the united states deals way too much with class, money and the 'war on drugs' to discuss at length in this forum. Probably best to move those aspects of discussion over to someplace like instapundit/redstate/dailykos.com as people wish.

I must start by saying I respect anyone's opinion, no matter how misguided it may be.

...

In today's anything-goes society where a child rapist gets only a 60 day jail sentence and convicted child molesters get pardoned by departing presidents the FAA still gets serious about felony convictions when it comes to medical applications. Even intentionally falsifying applications can lead to up to 5 years imprisonment and/or up to $250,000 in fines. This guy better be thankful he is from a state like Nebraska where they are soft on crime.

If he really wants to use his talents he will move to Massachussets and run for the Senate.

Doug, thanks for the soap box. I feel better now.

 

[srv]

talents

If he really wants to use his talents he will move to Massachussets and run for the Senate.

I hear there's a House seat coming up in Sugarland also.

 

[Nosferav8r]

This is certainly a contentious issue... and I know I seem to be one of the more vocal opposition to the general consensus... but hey, isn't debate what we're here for? If we all agreed, then Van would only make one RV with a single engine option and panel.

I think one way to look at it is thus:

This guy was jailed 7 years ago for a dumb mistake. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone. I know I'll admit I won't be throwing ANY stones here today. I've never driven drunk... I've never killed anyone... but hell if I haven't done some damned stupid things in my life.

After 7 years of rotting in a jail cell, he has decided that he wants to pursue aviation. With a criminal record (and one involving alcohol, to boot) he will never be able to progress in a flying career beyond being a private pilot. Instrument, max. No flight school I've ever been around will do commercial on anyone with a background like that.

He is paying for this out of his pocket. There are no tax dollars going into his flight training. Where he's got the money from... well, that's frankly none of my or anyone else's business.


Let me tell you a little story. I worked as an EMT for some time in my life... and in that time I got to see a lot of things. I was in a lake area, and a vacation spot, so I got to see my fair share of accidents that involved vehicles that travelled on water, roads, air and off-road. By far, the accidents that were typically the worst and the largest takers of life were the car accidents. Two true stories I worked;

Some kid in an old muscle car that his/her dad bought him for $1000 as a car to learn to drive in (the number of times I heard "It'll put up with the punishment"...) loses control in the first storm of the year... sweeps across three lanes of traffic and takes out the front of a Mexican restaurant, killing 9 people in the process (though in deference to his dad's decision, the kid survived!)

Light aircraft on approach to a small strip right beside a holiday destination loses power on final. Pilot is doing a long final and doesn't have enough energy to make the threshold... makes for the highway. Oddly, the same highway mentioned above. Somehow manages to avoid all the cars on the road, bar one. Small car with a woman at the wheel who somehow failed to see the aircraft land on the highway in front of her... clips one of the wings causing some damage to the A-pillar of her car. It turns the light aircraft toward oncoming traffic, he veers across the road and somehow manages to avoid traffic again, coming to rest in the trees on the opposite side of the road with one wing about 2 feet shorter than the other. Seriously injured in the crash, but after a few weeks at the hospital was able to walk out with no permanent injury (except to his wallet; the insurance had lapsed on his plane). Cause of the accident? Fuel starvation... he had left the fuel selector on LEFT for the entire trip and happened to empty the tank on final.

Moral of the second story? As pilots, even as high and mighty as we sometimes see ourselves... we make mistakes too. Should the guy in story 2 be any less deserving of continuing to fly if his pocket book will allow it because he made a dumb mistake and came very close to killing someone? How about kid in story 1? He killed 9... his mistake was he hadn't replaced balding tires when he absolutely should have (I saw them, they weren't pretty). He was a student... just out of high school and couldn't afford said tires. Excuse? No... but it was a mistake. For all I know, he may be a pilot today... I really don't know... I haven't looked him up.


If you're worried about this guy driving a 757 into a school, I doubt that's a realistic concern. He's not going to get an airline job... hell, as I said I don't know of a flight school that will pass him on a commercial... there may even be flight schools who won't allow him to progress beyond private.

Sure, he's a criminal... but you know, I have a lot of friends who have served jail time. Maybe they didn't kill anyone, but three weeks ago I had one of them up in a rented Cessna who happens to have been jailed for DUI a few years back. It was his first time in a light aircraft, and I'm not about to discourage him from pursuing a private ticket if he wants to himself... he certainly is excited by the prospect (waiting on tax refund). For your information, he hasn't touched alcohol in the 4 years I've known him... I think he's safer flying than some commercial pilots I've seen at the bars around Lambert Field.

Just hoping that I provide some food for thought, and an opposing opinion.

 

[JoeG]

Let's Get Real...

What seems to be missing here is the concept of Punishment for the Crime... Plain and Simple. Incarceration is intended to punish the offender and keep him from, in this case, killing again.

Unfortunately, the misguided masses have come to believe that prision is for rehabilitation. Let's look at the root of the word prison. It is derived from the Latin prensionem (nom. prensio), a shortening of prehensionem "a taking," noun of action from prehendere, "to take"

So the purpose of prison is evident in it's etymology; "to take" freedom from the prisoner, i.e. PUNISH him.

The longer he "rots" in jail, the better off innocent law abiding drivers are, and the more time the idiot has to consider his inane actions. If you don't think that's very compassionate, you may be right. But if you want to feel good about yourself and be all compasionate, why don't you direct your compassion at the family of the innocent victims that he murdered. Put yourself in the place of somebody who has lost a loved one to a moronic drunk driver, and you may change your tune. I have compassion for the victims, not the idiotic drunk. That kind of misguided "time-out" mentality is behind most of our social woes today. What the guy really needs is a "Spankin".

Cast the first stone? Somebody obviously missed the message of that parable. The context was that of people guilty of the same crimes, or worse, as the woman they wanted to stone. The proper analogy here would be a convicted drunk driver getting off scot free for killing someone and then sitting on a jury to convict another drunk driver who had committed the same crime... i.e hypocrisy. That doesn't apply in my case. I've never killed anybody, much less while driving drunk! So I am free to judge this man the same as a court and jury already did... Guilty, Guilty, Guilty.

 

[N62XS]

"Ju$tice"

I once had an attorney tell me " Don't you know your innocent until proven broke?". Our system rewards those with the money to buy the best defense(Remember OJ) when it comes to crimes against persons, but when it comes to property crimes(stealing money) the rules and penalties change and increase. Human Life has a monetary value and when it comes to crimes against persons, it averages about $200,000 or seven years in prison, at $29,000 per year(Average cost of incarceration). While I think capital punishment is too easy, I think all child molestors, rapists and terrorists deserve summary execution. This idiot made an series of unforgettable mistakes that he will carry for the rest of his life and, if the victims' family is smart will cost him for the rest of his life. If he is able to pay his legal bills and pay the victims' family, then and only then, should he be allowed the priviledge of flying lessons.

BTW Did anyone read the story about the bank robber buying a Cessna in Atlanta in the 70's, from Epps Aviation, in AOPA?

Don't forget the worst 535 criminals take way too much money from your paycheck every year and are called statesmen. Vote for the Fair Tax and vote the crooks out!

FWIW

Robby "Hard" Knox

 

[txaviator]

JoeG hit the mark!

Exactly what JoeG from Fort Worth said! And no, I am not saying this because he is located only a few miles from my home.

This guy should not be allowed to take flying lessons while in jail/prison. Period.

I thought I had finally "heard it all" when the guy recently had to sell his VAF shirts because his wife didn't like the image on the back. Yes, my brother designed the image, but let's get real...a Hawaiian girl is offensive and reason to not be allowed to wear a shirt? Anyway, I digress......Now I have FINALLY heard it all. A prisoner being allowed to leave jail/prison to take flying lessons.

Unbelievable, especially based upon his crime.

 

[w1curtis]

kill them all, let God sort it out

I was wondering when the Texas (kill them all, let God sort it out) crowd would chime in on this. Irrespective of the root meaning of the word prison, I'm sure the founding fathers associated that meaning to institutions in the old world and not to the new republic.

If current trends continue 66% of Texans will be behind bars-33% in prison and 33% behind gated communities, to protect them from the other 33% that use to be in prison but were never reformed or re-educated.

This guy should not be allowed to take flying lessons while in jail/prison. Period.

Why?

What if he wanted to get a degree in chemical engineering, should that be excluded also? How about physics? Both of these could ultimately be more dangerous than flying lessons if malice was his intent so why no emotion for other forms of training? This is the kind of bass ackward thinking that makes people feel good in the short term, but less safe in the long term.

I'll put on my flame proof jacket now.

 

[rv8ch]

Prison training

This is the kind of bass ackward thinking that makes people feel good in the short term, but less safe in the long term.

Someone mentioned that it costs over $20,000/year to warehouse someone in prison. That would pay for a lot of flying lessons, or technical school, or a good University, or... It's amazing that we are willing to waste that kind of money keeping someone locked up, but if that same person wants that kind of money to better themselves, before they commit any crime, no chance.

Gosh, it might even save us money to invest in educating *all* of our citizens so that they can be productive members of society.

 

[JoeG]

God Bless Texas

If current trends continue 66% of Texans will be behind bars-33% in prison and 33% behind gated communities, to protect them from the other 33% that use to be in prison but were never reformed or re-educated.

Fortunately we don't have to live behind gated communities in Texas, since our 2nd ammendment rights are at least partially intact with the Concealed Handgun License Law. If someone exercises the poor judgment to attack me or mine, or a third party in my presence... well let's just say, they won't need any flyin' lessons...

 

[txaviator]

w1Curtis...

I don't follow your edict of "kill 'em all, let God sort 'em out". I bet you think we still ride horses to work, too?

Seriously, what I am trying to say is that a criminal IN PRISON should not be allowed OUT of prison, WHILE STILL DOING HIS TIME, to take flying lessons!

That is ridiculous! Getting to leave prison to go fly, then come back in after your lessons? Now that is crazy, and despite the circumstances, this guy was convicted of killing people while driving drunk. He should do his time BEHIND bars, just like the others in prison.

Once he is out of prison and has served his time? He can take all the flying lessons he wants. The jury and judge set his sentence, and fortunately for this guy, it appears he is getting out soon. Again, once his full time is served, according to the jury and the eyes of the law, his punishment has been served 100%. Great. After he gets out, hell, let him fly 8-hours per day if he has the money and a CFI will allow this much training. But to do so while coming and going out of an 'open-door prison system' doesn't make any sense to me.

And yes, just like JoeG said, some of us Texans do legally 'pack heat' at all times. I just wish it was like Arizona where they can wear a gun on their hip if properly licensed...we must conceal our weapons.

I just want someone to make a VALID argument why someone should be allowed in and out of jail, while still serving their time, to take recreational flying lessons? That's the point here...that he gets to leave jail to fly. NOT that he should be denied the opportunity, but he should not be able to enjoy things of this nature until his time is served. Let's say he flys 10-hours per week, and it takes him 60-hours to pass his checkride. Does the judge come back in and tack on 60-hours (or almost two-weeks) to his sentence? There's no mention of that, and that is my point!

And finally, William, the "what if he wants to get a degree" statement doesn't have any relevance to this discussion. He can get a degree from WITHIN prison, without ever having to leave- which is of course the case to go flying.

 

[CFI1513840]

If it looks like a duck...

This reminds me of a situation many years ago when I gave some flight instruction to the inmate of a nearby minimum security prison who was nearing parole. He was allowed to participate in an outside day-work program at our local airport. The airport manager would pick him up at the prison in the morning and deliver him back at night, several days a week. While at the airport, he did odd jobs and pretty much had the run of the place. He was allowed to take flying lessons as part of this program, (in compensation for his work) so he progressed through solo and was working towards his private license. He had the makings of a pretty good pilot. I left the area for a year or so, but when I got back I heard that he had stolen a C-172 and earned a little more time in prison, this time without any more flying lessons.

 

[jcoloccia]

This reminds me of a situation many years ago when I gave some flight instruction to the inmate of a nearby minimum security prison who was nearing parole. He was allowed to participate in an outside day-work program at our local airport. The airport manager would pick him up at the prison in the morning and deliver him back at night, several days a week. While at the airport, he did odd jobs and pretty much had the run of the place. He was allowed to take flying lessons as part of this program, (in compensation for his work) so he progressed through solo and was working towards his private license. He had the makings of a pretty good pilot. I left the area for a year or so, but when I got back I heard that he had stolen a C-172 and earned a little more time in prison, this time without any more flying lessons.

I guess he didn't read Dan's primer on flying to Mexico...

 

[CFI1513840]

Flying criminal trivia...

Another alumni of Lompoc FCI was Christofer Boyce of the Falcon and the Snowman fame, but at a much later time than when I was teaching my soon-to-be paroled friend Bill to fly. Boyce escaped from Lompoc in 1981 and was on the loose for 19 months, during which time he took flying lessons in Washington. He was two weeks short of getting his Private Pilot license and a flight to Russia via the Bering Straits when they caught up with him.

 

[CFI1513840]

I guess he didn't read Dan's primer on flying to Mexico...

Dan was a twinkle in his daddy's eye when Bill was planning to fly the coop in his stolen C-172, so I guess he was just born 40 years too soon.

 

[Tom Maxwell]

Purpose Of Incarceration

The value of incarceration is typically argued from one of three angles:

1) Rehabilitation
2) Punishment
3) Protection of society

Seems to me that if one subscribes to #2, then one must accept the sentence handed down by the system and assume the convicted has served his/her punishment and is free and clear when the sentence is over. It would then be difficult to argue that the person shouldn't be allowed to pursue any activities not prohibited by law i.e convicted fellons cannot vote nor legally own handguns. In this case the FAA has said it is not illegal so on it goes. I guess it can be argued when this person should be allowed to pursue his interests but that is nit picking in my opinion.

Seems to me that if one subscribes to #3, then anything short of a death sentence or life in prison would be short of fulfilling the goal. After all, does protection of society become no longer necessary at the end of a sentence? If a person is a threat to society today, does he/she magically become a nonthreat tomorrow when the sentence is up?

Thirdly, if one subscribes to the notion that incarceration is to provide time for rehabilitation, then one probably has no issue with the situation under discussion.

I happen to believe that each case needs to stand on its own. And I am glad our system is such that each situation is looked at individually, tried by a jury of peers, and that there is some latitude in sentencing guidelines. I have been to many countries in which such latitude is nonexistant and the sentences are often contrary and arbitray, the results are not all that great. I too know people who have made mistakes, some pretty severe, and am relieved that "...throwing away the key," was not the only option. I do believe that some people are hardened criminals with little chance of rehabilitation and for them punishment and protecting society are the primary goals of incarceration. However, there are others who, as has been said already, do make mistakes. They pay their debt to society, are truly remorseful, and deserve a second chance. We leave it up to our administrators and parole boards and courts and yes politicians to make these determinations. In this case the powers to be made a decision based on what they know about this fellow. I think we need to respect that decision or has been suggested work to change the laws.

On the surface it may appear that this decision plain sucks, but we need to hold back our passion and put faith in the system. The system is not always right, as it is only as good as the laws and people supporting it, but I happen to think our system works pretty darn well. Given the alternatives, I happen to think it is great.

 

[Tom Maxwell]

Respectfully Disagree

tried by a jury of peers. this statement is so untrue it sickens me. jury selection is at best trying to find the most people who have no clue as to who or what you are and are as opposite as possible. they try to select people that will bury you is what they do,. but then the lawyers get involved and screw an honest man and set the guilty free.. i think weve all seen this tooooo many times ...but then theres dna setting people free everyday..yes it is the best system but man thats a scary thought bet they dont let the cessna pilot that broke the no fly zone fly from jail.....or anywhere else for that matter....and he's probaly a great guy...
.

Man you are pretty emotional about this William and that's OK, I like passion in an individual.

Yes there is a jury selection process and I believe the idea of a jury of peers is everyday people from everyday walks of life deciding the outcome of our case rather than an appointed person or group of people. I have been involved with a few court martial situations and I can tell you that a court martial is just about as opposite of a jury of peers as you can get. But that is another story. The jury selection process does allow for a finite number of challenges and refusals and the judge can disqualify others for good cause, but I disagree that the jury selection process is as stacked as you suggest it might be. Setting on a couple of jury pools will quickly reveal that lawyers do not have unbridaled discretion in stacking the jury. Besides, if the accused wishes he/she can wave his/her right to a jury trial and asked to be judged by the court alone. Yes there are faults and misques and mistakes. A lot of good people are trying to fix these problems within the law. I still maintain that it is the best system around.

As far as the pilot(s) who broke the ADIZ (if those are the ones you are referring to), I may be wrong, but I don't believe either one of them got any jail time and the pilot will be eligible to get his ticket back a year down the road. And if I recall properly, correct me if I am wrong, his lawyer is trying to get that reduced to a 10 month suspension. He made a really dumb/stupid/unbelieveable/idiotic mistake, should we lock him up for life for doing so? There were a large number of people calling for his head as well. I am glad we have a system that gives him the opportunity to recover from his mistakes rather than allowing a group of vigilantes to string him up.

Hopefully not, but you may just need the protections of this system some day.

Good luck to you. Everything is going to be alright and the sun will come up tomorrow. In all likelihood you will never have to meet or deal with this guy so it isn't worth having a stroke over. Relax and don't worry about the things over which you have no control.

Take care!

 

[rv8ch]

Criminal justice system

...you are correct this is the best system especially compared to others...

I agree that our system is better than many, probably better than most, but I think it's a bit of a stretch to say it's the best. We've got more people in jail than anyone else. I think we can do better. Prison is the NTSB report of our society. I feel that hiring more NTSB investigators is not the answer, better education and training is.

 

[Broken-wrench]

Fortunately we don't have to live behind gated communities in Texas, since our 2nd ammendment rights are at least partially intact with the Concealed Handgun License Law. If someone exercises the poor judgment to attack me or mine, or a third party in my presence... well let's just say, they won't need any flyin' lessons...

Everyone knows the only tall buildings in Texas are in Dallas so that leaves Texas with a shortage of prisoner runways!

 

[JoeG]

Get Real... Again!

Where the heck did that chart come from; USA Today? CNN? Oh wait...it's right there in the fine print... what the heck is November.org? Oh here it is. I found their mission statement. In part it says:

"We are a growing body of citizens whose lives have been gravely affected by our government's present drug policy. We are prisoners, parents of those incarcerated, wives, sisters, brothers, children, aunts, uncles and cousins...

...The drug war is an assault and steady erosion of our civil rights and freedoms "

Now THAT sounds like an unbiased objective group. A bunch of druggies and their families! So they think doing illicit drugs is now a civil right!?!?!? WHAT A JOKE! Of course they are against prisons, they are FELONS!

Oh and they conveniently forgot to list CHINA on that list. Not to mention North Korea, Vietnam, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Cuba... And even if there were numbers for those places, I would doubt the accuracy of information shared by any "closed" society.

I did get a good laugh out of it though, so it had some value

Sometimes, ya just have to wonder.....