kevinh

kevinh

Well Known Member
Someone recently referred to the annual $50 for Spot as being a factor vs the cost of an EPRB. One thing to consider with EPRBs is the battery replacement cost. For the ACR EPRB I had the amortized cost of the 5 yr replacement with their special lithium battery was $30/yr. So not much savings compared to the Spot with its customer replaceable cheap li-ions.

Just something else to consider. For my use I decided on 121.5 ELT + Spot + APRS.

[ I almost replied in the ELT install thread, but making a new thread seems more appropriate. ]
 
Assuming I plan to be rescued reliably... EPRB is the only real choice.

Don't get me wrong, I like my spot. But it's not survival gear IMO.
 
There are other factors. Spot "can" provide actual position reports. This could help if you are in a situation where activating the PLB is not feasible.
 
ccsmith51 said:
Can you tell me where to find a $50 annual service? On the SPOT web site the least expensive plan is $99.95.
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Doh - Good point. I can't find it on their website. When I upgraded from my spot 1 to the current messenger they sent me a special 'buy 3 yrs for $150' thing. It does seem like it is $99/yr.
 
DCat22 said:
Assuming I plan to be rescued reliably... EPRB is the only real choice.
Don't get me wrong, I like my spot. But it's not survival gear IMO.
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Can you elaborate? What does the EPRB give you that the SPOT doesn't?
 
The feature I like about SPOT is it gives a location about every ten minutes. In the event of an accident, if your rescue equipment is damaged a location within about ten minutes of the site should have been sent out. On cross country flights I always use flight following so this is not as important to me. But in my SuperCub just meandering arround locally, I rarely have a planned path. If something were to go wrong and I could not summon help , at least when someone noticed I have not returned they might have a chance of knowing where to start looking.
Ron
 
Snowflake said:
Can you elaborate? What does the EPRB give you that the SPOT doesn't?
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Reliability. Many times the SPOT loses it tracks or has delays in reporting...or doesn't have the best fix in marginal GPS conditions...which is just fine for what I use it for, but not what I have in mind for a dedicated rescue device. Don't get me wrong, I love my SPOT. (Except when it causes folks at home to worry for no reason.) A bit of tangent, but the SPOT company customer service folks have gone above and beyond for me too, great folks.

A 406mhz GPS PLB works in the COPAS/SARSAT system and are by definition reliable life-saving devices. It is what they do, and the system's design mission. It's the same thing as the new ELT type devices on planes, ships, etc...

SPOT runs on the GlobarStar satellite system, and has lots of cool features...but it is also seems a consumer device. It may not work in as many places, and I've had issues with it's reporting in all conditions... It's nice to have the breadcrumbs, and if you were missing and it was pinging away at a location, your family watching it could help you point it out, etc. Usually a non-ELT type PLB you have to manually activate so even if you can't "911" your SPOT the breadcrumbs have an advantage --and while you can one-shot track a location in a PLB's "test" mode this functionality is very limited. But the SPOT doesn't, in my opinion, hold up as a purpose built "life saving device" in the depth of its reliability. I fly with my SPOT, but I wouldn't solely rely on it (or a 121.5 ELT) in hostile areas.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distress_radiobeacon is a good start for some more reading. Note I'm not an expert and could be wrong about plenty of things...I'm sure some others hear can add more useful information either way on this.

Or in other words, IMO it's about your mission. :)
 
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DCat22 said:
Reliability. Many times the SPOT loses it tracks or has delays in reporting...or doesn't have the best fix in marginal GPS conditions...which is just fine for what I use it for, but not what I have in mind for a dedicated rescue device. Don't get me wrong, I love my SPOT. (Except when it causes folks at home to worry for no reason.) A bit of tangent, but the SPOT company customer service folks have gone above and beyond for me too, great folks.
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I've had SPOT for close to three years, and several friends carry them too. I track most of their flights, and it's not very often that SPOT misses that 10 minute report. I'd always check all my cross country flights, and found very few misses of the 10 minute position report. For most flights, it never skipped a beat. And the 911 feature works as advertised. We set ours off by accident a couple of years ago. Had a call from SPOT before we even got out of the plane. My wife placed here headset on the unit, after arriving back at the hangar.

L.Adamson
 
The SPOT has two advantages in my mind over other systems... One, the breadcrumb trail, which makes it easy both for loved ones to follow you enroute, and for SAR to infer a track if you go missing. Two, being largely independent of the condition of the aircraft after landing. If your ELT, EPIRB, or SPOT is buried in a pile of aluminium, no signal will be getting out. If the antennae are broken during the touchdown, again, no signal. But the SPOT's breadcrumb trail will already be there to follow.

For my mission, it's the right choice. :) But i'm open to hearing other ideas if my understanding of EPIRBs is wrong.
 
Spot tracking is not reliable

I have a spot device in my 7A and use it for messaging. I had the spot tracker and found it so unreliable that I dropped the service. I tried working with spot to resolve the problems but got tired of them telling me they were having technical difficulties. If you are considering a spot device be prepared for long delays in reporting your position. In my case is was often 30 to 90 minutes late and on several occasions my position was never reported. I could not use it for flight following or I would have been reported over due on several occasions.
 
It's been a while since getting involved in an ELT discussion but after my experience last month this might be helpful to others attempting to make decisions on their favorites methods to get found. I like what SPOT has to offer but not necessarily for aviation related SAR. As a real world example, I was involved in a SAR last month in WV looking for N115CL. Check out its flight path on FlightAware and the NTSB prelim at http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/brief.aspx?ev_id=20111006X03238&key=1.

This aircraft was on flight following and where you see the flight path end is where he dropped below radar coverage as he supposedly was doing a 360 turn while descending in IMC. Pilot was a new PPL without an IFR rating and flying VFR. Not matter, that is just the set-up. The important thing here to this discussion is that where he dropped off radar was only about 1800 feet AGL and 1 mile away from where the wreckage was found FOUR days later. It was in very mountainous rugged terrain. The wreckage was scattered just enough that it was flown over a few times but there were no signs of the plane having gone through the tree cover. It took a helicopter flying very slow and low to be able to see anything. The impact was great enough that the ELT did not survive.

To this discussion on SPOT, 10 minute reports at RV speeds can put a search radius just for starters at over 30nm from the last recorded point. That is a lot of area to search thoroughly enough to have an even close to acceptable POD (probability of detection) depending on how many aircraft and ground teams are engaged in the search and how staffed and skilled that particular SAR group is. Where I see SPOT as something for SAR would be if you survived the landing or crash and able to get out where the SPOT could hit the satellite to mark that position.

ELT's are not perfect and we all know especially in my example above that they don't always work so if getting found is important to you then there are a variety of things out there to look at. Spot is better than nothing if you fly without flight following or IFR. APRS is only an option if you are a Ham. PLB's are nice but they are big and require activating which may be problematic in some situations. In my opinion pushing the little red button on the panel to activate a 406 ELT with GPS in your plane would be the best solution since it will begin transmitting immediately even though it may not survive a crash, it will give the closest last known position.
 
I find SPOT very reliable

cdn_7a said:
I have a spot device in my 7A and use it for messaging. I had the spot tracker and found it so unreliable that I dropped the service. I tried working with spot to resolve the problems but got tired of them telling me they were having technical difficulties. If you are considering a spot device be prepared for long delays in reporting your position. In my case is was often 30 to 90 minutes late and on several occasions my position was never reported. I could not use it for flight following or I would have been reported over due on several occasions.
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Loooks like we need input from many other SPOT users on this forum. I've seen that many pilots here use this device. I don't know about Canada, but it's sure reliable over the USA. If someone is following you on their computer using your password account, it's nearly instantaneous with reports.

L.Adamson
 
Capflyer said:
In my opinion pushing the little red button on the panel to activate a 406 ELT with GPS in your plane would be the best solution since it will begin transmitting immediately even though it may not survive a crash, it will give the closest last known position.
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That 911 button on SPOT will do the same thing (last position, and immediate). However, in the interest of safety, I suppose having both devices wouldn't hurt.

L.Adamson
 
I have a newer 406 ELT in both my aircraft and also carry my SPOT with me. I purchased it at Oshkosh and have used it every time I fly since. It's only been a short period yet but it's never missed a beat here in Atlantic Canada.
Ron
 
Capflyer said:
To this discussion on SPOT, 10 minute reports at RV speeds can put a search radius just for starters at over 30nm from the last recorded point. That is a lot of area to search thoroughly enough to have an even close to acceptable POD (probability of detection) depending on how many aircraft and ground teams are engaged in the search and how staffed and skilled that particular SAR group is.
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I see this argument a lot, mostly from people trying to sell SPOT competitors. Keep in mind that with a track to look at, you know which way the plane was going. Even if the last waypoint is 30 miles from impact, you can be pretty sure that the plane continued on a mostly straight line from the last point. So you're not searching a 30 nm circle, you're searching a 30nm long triangle that diverges by some reasonable angle.

Where I see SPOT as something for SAR would be if you survived the landing or crash and able to get out where the SPOT could hit the satellite to mark that position.
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I agree, this is a more ideal situation.

In my opinion pushing the little red button on the panel to activate a 406 ELT with GPS in your plane would be the best solution since it will begin transmitting immediately even though it may not survive a crash, it will give the closest last known position.
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The SPOT functions this way too... Just hit the 911 button when you're in trouble. How frequent a waypoint can the 406 MHz devices put out?
 
In previous discussions about ELTs, Spot etc. I sometimes chime in that Spidertracks is an alternative and I am surprised no one has ever taken up the discussion. True, Spidertracks costs more but it pretty much does everything mentioned in this thread.
We are happy to spend big bucks on avionics, fuel, insurance etc but balk at what I consider the very reasonable cost of Spidertracks given the potential life saving features it provides.
YMMV.

Fin
9A
 
Louise has carried a SPOT for three or four years, and e find it very useful for her daily commute - I can tell when she is headed home, and when I have to have dinner ready! :)

That said, I'd say that maybe 5% of the time, messages get lost - not a big deal the way we are using it, but it's not 100% reliable.

The biggest thing I want to point out is some real-world experience in the mountains - on the ground. We have carried it on a couple of backpacking trip sand hikes in the Eastern Sierra, and after a day of hiking in steep valleys and mountain passes, gone home to check our track. On one occasion, with SPOT in "Track" mode all day, there were a total of five breadcrumbs that got our...five! There is a lot of blockage in steep, wooded terrain. that's something to consider if you go down and in survival mode - get to the highest point you can to try and hit a satellite, or the messages might never get out.

There are frequently delays in the "I'm OK" messages of several minutes to a half hour - we have no experience with the 911 feature, but if it doesn't transmit instantly, then I wouldn't count on it getting out if you hit the button on your way down.

We have found the SPOT quite useful - but I carry a (registered) PLB for emergency use.
 
Finley Atherton said:
In previous discussions about ELTs, Spot etc. I sometimes chime in that Spidertracks is an alternative and I am surprised no one has ever taken up the discussion. True, Spidertracks costs more but it pretty much does everything mentioned in this thread.
We are happy to spend big bucks on avionics, fuel, insurance etc but balk at what I consider the very reasonable cost of Spidertracks given the potential life saving features it provides.
YMMV.

Fin
9A
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nothing against spidertracks....I'm just on the fence because; if 'they' are gonna make us in Canada buy a 406 ELT, then I want one with GPS, and that will run around $1000+ installed....so I'm just getting the most bang for my buck now with SPOT, and a PLB will be an added tool; both are useful in the car and while camping etc., rather than the ELT or Spider which sits in the plane exclusively.
 
If your flying over water please have proper PPE and a 406 EPIRB to make my job of finding you easier. If your EPIRB is registered I can assure you I can get the wheels in motion for your rescue faster than having the report come in from a third party. The few times I've delt with SPOT on boats have been a real PITA. Reason being is mainly information gathering and how the coordination process works.

I can't speak for land SAR, but I'm going to assume it's the same because the information is coming from the same RCC's.

Lurking on this site and plotting my path to RV ownership is one of my favorite pastimes:) Hope everyone had a great Thanksgiving.


Tony
Search and Rescue Coordinator
USCG
 
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Tony/SAROPS

Interesting point about registration of 406 PLB/EPIRB.
I am considering buying a 406 PLB and not registering it, on the basis they will come anyway. (There is a reason for not registering it.)
So can you explain why is there a delay in launching if signal from a non registered 406? It seems to me registration makes it easier for RCC to check for a false activation. Is there some other reason for registration to make a difference? What sort of time delay comparing registered to non registered?
Don't get me wrong - I am not trying to make it harder for RCC or you to do your job. There is another reason for me to not be able to register the 406 (I wish I could register it - no it will not be a stolen beacon if anyone thinks that).

Thanks
John
 
rjtjrt said:
Tony/SAROPS

Interesting point about registration of 406 PLB/EPIRB.
I am considering buying a 406 PLB and not registering it, on the basis they will come anyway. (There is a reason for not registering it.)
So can you explain why is there a delay in launching if signal from a non registered 406? It seems to me registration makes it easier for RCC to check for a false activation. Is there some other reason for registration to make a difference? What sort of time delay comparing registered to non registered?
Don't get me wrong - I am not trying to make it harder for RCC or you to do your job. There is another reason for me to not be able to register the 406 (I wish I could register it - no it will not be a stolen beacon if anyone thinks that).

Thanks
John
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Other than the fact that it is supposed to be registered, why have a SAR initiated when all the AFRCC needs to do is call you to be sure you're safe on a false activation? Personally, I prefer to sleep rather than get a call at 2AM to get an aircrew or ground team together to go looking for your false alarm when a simple phone call to you would have sufficed. Keep in mind CAP is all volunteer, we don't get paid to be roused out of bed or taken away from work to hunt an ELT down. CAP is the one that gets the first calls from AFRCC for inland SAR.

So, it is not whether we'll come after you if your beacon is not registered, it's that we don't need to come if it is registered, a call was made, and you are safe.
 
rjtjrt said:
Tony/SAROPS

Interesting point about registration of 406 PLB/EPIRB.
I am considering buying a 406 PLB and not registering it, on the basis they will come anyway. (There is a reason for not registering it.)
So can you explain why is there a delay in launching if signal from a non registered 406? It seems to me registration makes it easier for RCC to check for a false activation. Is there some other reason for registration to make a difference? What sort of time delay comparing registered to non registered?
Don't get me wrong - I am not trying to make it harder for RCC or you to do your job. There is another reason for me to not be able to register the 406 (I wish I could register it - no it will not be a stolen beacon if anyone thinks that).

Thanks
John
Click to expand...

John,

CAP hit the nail on the head. CG AUX does the same thing over water.

The rescuers will come, but there will most likely be a difference in response time. The satellites have to give the RCC a resolution or position narrowed down enough for us to search. This normally takes two passes. Each pass can be 40 min, then on average our assets have 40 min response time plus ETE. This can all add up due to a lot of factors. On average assuming you don't have GPS coupled my guess you'd be sitting in the water 1-1.5 hrs longer than the one with amplifying information. And if your way offshore double that easily. That's very ballpark estimate though.

Now the flip side to that. RCC (USCG D5)receives 406 signal instantly upon activation, still no resolution, the SAR controller at D5 runs HEX ID and it comes back registered to a airplane with good contact information. Bells and Whistles are going to start going off, everyone has high apprehension, the Nearest Air Station is going be spun up ASAP, and sent towards the vicinity, every local agency that might have responded is now going to respond! Oh, and we called the contact number you registered and got your flight plan. With that the friendly local approach controller pulled op your last radar position. That all took 10-15 min, with me launching the station in about 5 minutes. Those responders who have a 40 min response time are now underway in less than half the time, due to their apprehension.

In cold or even not so cold weather and water this may be the difference between life and death. If you must not register, my suggestion would be to couple it to a GPS or maybe supplement it with something like SPOT.

Another factor is the false alarms. Something I was unaware of until recently is the CG and locals will send you a bill for a wild goose chase. How often they actually do that I don't know.

Sorry for the rambling, but I did want to paint somewhat of a picture of the procedure for ya.

Here's some good reading: http://www.boatus.com/foundation/epirb/works.asp

Hope this helped John,

Tony
 
I looked at various products and decided on a PLB instead of SPOT. I ended up with the McMurdo fast find PLB with 406 main signal/121.5 homing beacon also. It was $229 on sale recently. No annual fees, and I plan on flying from Alaska to Georgia this spring. Don't want to risk my life with the SPOT not being reliable when I need it to be.
 
Spidertracks has a new cheaper unit available designed for the non commercial flier.

Spider S3 lite $495 verses $995 for the standard S3. However you still need to subscribe to a plan which will be more expensive than SPOT.

Fin
9A
 
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