David-aviator

Well Known Member
This thread is in the FWIT category. Some guys are having cooling issues, some are not.

I seem to have stumbled on a method of providing excellent cooling for the cylinders and oil and not appreciably increasing drag. Looking at the set up would make one suspicious of that claim but the numbers seem to support the conclusion. The machine cranked up to 202 mph yesterday at 8500'.

The next subject is RAM air into the fuel injection system. It is without doubt worth considering. It took some cowl adjustment to provide for a connection to a filter by-pass in the left intake area and one would think messing with Vans cowl is asking for trouble with regard to drag, but that does not seem to be the case.

I am convinced the key to good cooling is air flow across the oil cooler. The type of cooler may be a factor also, but air flow comes first. A RV-4 guy reported poor cooling with a James inlet arrangement with upper cowl pressure at 10:1 with outside air. That's a lot air packed into the upper cowl area. That ratio would seem important but I believe what is more important is the lower cowl ratio to outside air pressure. If the ratio in the lower cowl is the same as outside air, there has to be tremendous flow from the upper high pressure area down and out and cooling ought to be very good. But that is not the result. Cooling is not good and it can only mean air is not flowing down and out because the pressure down there is higher than outside air. And that is caused by a restricted exit area.

Vans has cut the inlet to exit area ratio very close out of a consideration of cooling necessity and drag imposed by exit area dimension. As near as I can calculate, that ratio is about 108% exit to inlet area when considering the exit area occupied by exhaust pipes and a NG leg with -A models. My exit area is about 226% to inlet with the 5x15 bottom exit and 2 Bonanza side vents at 14 inches of area each. That is overkill on exit area but may explain way I have not seen an oil temp above 180 even with a climb to 12.5 yesterday with heat soaked engine at take off and the OAT at 92F. The gross exit area is left over from the Subby adventure trying to get a couple too small radiators to work.



Beyond cooling issues, I believe the RAM air inlet to the AFP fuel injection system is worth considering. It provides for squeezing max performance out of the engine. There is a manifold pressure penalty pulling air through a filter.



The Subaru cooling set up was a compromise from the get-go. I did some informal tuft testing to confirm my suspicion that air was not going through the radiators as much as it should and thought the tuft test proved it. Some other guys asserted the test was not valid because the airplane was not inflight. I believe to this day the cooling set up did not work efficiently because the back side of the rads was within an inch of the engine block and air flow in that area was total chaos. Air should be plenum ducted to and from the radiators with gradual area diffusion as was proven with a number of WWII fighters.

The lack of performance of my airplane with the H6 led to some very black days for me in concluding there was really something wrong with my machine and how I built it. But switching to the IO360 has pretty well vindicated the matter. The same airplane is now performing about as well as can be expected and is at or over Vans numbers. I have not had any black days with the Barrett Lycoming IO360X engine and the Catto prop.

That's not to conclude the alternative engine effort is for naught. It is working well for some guys but it did not work for me. I had one of the first H6 engines and its application has been much improved from 6 years ago.

 
Good Read

One of my buddies down here has one of the earlier Egg's, and he is a big fan. He has had to modify the cowling to get his temps right.

If you are ever in the SoMo area, it would be nice to get a look at your airplane.
 
All great points!

Dave, super good info here. Thx for your reporting. I think you have very accurately nailed the real cause of what for many is an elusive problem - cooling.

My current setup (hasn't flown yet) uses a full time K&N filter in front of the #2 cylinder. As you noted, I expect some loss across the filter and wonder if you might have any data for how much loss to expect.

Thx!
 
I am glad your plane cools well and thanks for sharing the data.

I also believe that the 220% inlet/exit ratio is very excessive. Dave Anders advocates 75% based on his data/experience. And Pual Lipps cooling arrangement is as tight and minimalist in area as they come and he cools well. No change in speed means no more drag than the original configuration, which is of unknown efficiency. However, your goal appears to be better cooling with no additional penalty, which you have acheived.

Your post is a good reminder that there is no one spec to cooling design that is the ultimate or a cure all. You need to know your design goals, good cooling or lowest drag most efficient cooling. The entire system must be designed to work as a whole to meet your goal, with consideration to air flow and pressure. Just like the oil cooler debate, Positech, SW, or other, it is generally not the cooler itself but the entire installation.
 
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Don't get too wrapped up in the 10:1 reference. Here's the quote from that thread:

Pressure difference in flight between plenum and outside is 10 to 1 (10in.hg to 1 in.hg).

Recall my comment at the time was "Interesting data point."

The maximum possible dynamic pressure recovery at sea level and 200 knots is around 135 lbs/sqft. The above quote says 10in.hg, which is 707.46 lbs/sqft. Impossible.

Assume he meant 10" H2O. That is within the realm of reason (52 lbs/sqft), but it wouldn't be very good pressure recovery if he was down low and moving fast when he took the measurement. More information needed.
 
Delta-P idea

David & Dan,

In my somewhat limited experience, I've found the difference in pressure across the cooling interface (cylinders, oil cooler, or whatever) is the thing to keep track of. As David said, its "airflow first" and I believe he hit it right on with that comment, after all isn't airflow the cooling medium?

So, feel free to correct what I propose here (I'm not real long on duct flow and/or cooling experience) but if we manage the problem by #1: trying to max-out dynamic pressure recovery at the cooler face and then #2: presenting the cooler exit with a nice low C_p (coefficient of pressure) then we get good m_dot (mass flow) thru the cooling interface. Correct?

And, Dan, I think you're right about the 10:1 figure. At 200 mph true, 8000' and 100% ram recovery, the numbers are (FWIW):.

Static Pressure: 1571 psf
Dynamic Press: 80 psf
Max total Press: 1651 psf
Ratio: 1.051 (total pressure / static pressure)

I don't see how units of measure matter in this calculation, so I just did it in pounds per sq foot.

10:1 might be possible if we strap a radiator to the Space Shuttle and take data on re-entry.
 
My current setup (hasn't flown yet) uses a full time K&N filter in front of the #2 cylinder. As you noted, I expect some loss across the filter and wonder if you might have any data for how much loss to expect.

Thx!

It won't be much if the filter is large enough (and uses external air). Due to space requirements, I tried a smaller than recommended K&N and it caused a considerable loss of power right after take off. It was internal air only and I thought there was something wrong with the engine until the RAM air valve was opened. I did not notice the manifold pressure change but rpm went up 200.

At present the filter set up is somewhat like Vans except I made a metal box that is attached to the ramp forward of #2 and has a Bracket filter (I think BA-5110, I'd have to look it up). It is connected to the AFP "Y" with scat.

The pressure loss is .4 - .5" at 75% power. It's not a lot. Opening the valve right after take off with WOT throttle is more noticeable.

I wanted to use a large K&LN cone filter with internal air only but finally decided internal air is heated too much during the summer and the penalty on take off with the RAM valve closed could be significant. Some guys are doing that but I have not heard any reports on how it affects performance on a hot day.

I believe the larger the filter, the less pressure loss it will cause.
 
<<In my somewhat limited experience,>>

Heck Bill, we're all working with limited experience, so we go with fundamental theory. At least you had the formal training. My wee mind is stretched like a Cub gear bungee in a student landing......which is good. Education and recreation, right?

<< I've found the difference in pressure across the cooling interface (cylinders, oil cooler, or whatever) is the thing to keep track of.>>

Certainly the most important thing.
 
6 CFM/square inch...

... x the OD surface area is the way K&N calculates their air flow rating, if you want to compare filters. Confirmed in discussions w/ K&N tech support.

I posted this info on another thread when I changed from a E-3260 filter that has to be hacked up and RTV'd to a E-3322 that fits arround the projections on the bottom of an MA-4SPA carb. E-3260 = 300CFM rating E-3322 = 295.

The air flow requirements I calculated conservatively several different ways:
1. Fuel Flow for max power take-off
2. Air flow at 100% volumetric efficiency @ 2800 RPM
3. Air flow through carburetor bore at 31" pressure differential.

All three methods yielded flow rates of ~ 250 - 260 CFM, though I think the methodology was conservative enough that that flfow rate would not be achieved in the real world.

LarryT
 
... x the OD surface area is the way K&N calculates their air flow rating, if you want to compare filters. Confirmed in discussions w/ K&N tech support.

I posted this info on another thread when I changed from a E-3260 filter that has to be hacked up and RTV'd to a E-3322 that fits arround the projections on the bottom of an MA-4SPA carb. E-3260 = 300CFM rating E-3322 = 295.

The air flow requirements I calculated conservatively several different ways:
1. Fuel Flow for max power take-off
2. Air flow at 100% volumetric efficiency @ 2800 RPM
3. Air flow through carburetor bore at 31" pressure differential.

All three methods yielded flow rates of ~ 250 - 260 CFM, though I think the methodology was conservative enough that that flfow rate would not be achieved in the real world.

LarryT

There is also a HP method of this calculation. Ross told me it is 1.5-1.6 CFM per HP which would indicate a 180 hp engine will gulp in 270-288 CFM.
 
Same ballpark

My calculations were done for the O-320. So the 360 would have proportionately more flow. Vans recommends a filter for the 360 that flows about 350 CFM if memory serves correct.

LarryT
 
Dan I asked my friend about the inches of mercury for the 10:1 figure and it was inches of water.My mistake.He's adding some more instruments to try and measure wherer the air is going in his cowl. I think he's making a good point for building it stock like Van designed it and having fewer head aches.
 
Measureing Pressure differential

Just a few notes on how I have measured pressure differential accross radiators, oil cooler, and intercooler on my STI Sube / RV7A installation.

I purchased a Magnahelic inches of water column gauge for about $35.00 on ebay, with a range from 0" to 15" WC. From the hardware store I got a roll of clear tubing to fit the barbed connections on the gauge. The pet store had aquarium stones in packs of 6 and they were cheap.

To avoid any Ram air effect I placed the aquarium stones on the ends of the tubing that would be placed in front of the heat exchangers.

One tube end, (with the aquarium stone) was placed in a neutral area inside the cowl, away from air exits etc. to get a low pressure reference point. Other tubes and stones were placed in front of all the heat exchangers.

The tubes were routed out through the air inlets at the cowl front and secured with plenty of Gorilla tape, and routed back into the cockpit via the cabin vent inlets. This may not be desireable if you have painted your plane..

To gather data I tried to always use the same speeds and altutudes etc. To get the measurements all in one flight, I color coded the ends of the tubes with different colors of tape to match colors on the paper I would write the readings on, (this really cuts down on the work load). Leaving the low pressure reference tube connected to the low pressure port on the gauge, I would connect each high pressure tube to the high pressure port and record the readings.

Typical pressure differentials at 140 knots and 3000' were from 2"WC to 8"WC. Opening the cowl flap, (I hinged the lowered portion of the cowl so it is pretty large) would increase the differential pressures by 1"WC, and in my experience the 1" of WC increase was enough to make a noticeable difference in temperatures.

To get a measurement of the pressure in the low pressure side of the cowl, I connected what had been the low pressure reference tube to the high pressure port, and left the low pressure port open to static pressure inside the cockpit. I found that opening and closing the cabin vents made very little difference in the measurements. I remember measureing 7" WC differential between the low pressure area of the cowl and the cabin static pressure. This will be a handy reference for me when I add more exit area, which should lower the cowl pressure behind the heat exchangers, and thus increase the differential on all the coolers.

Using this method has helped me solve some cooling issues, especially in the case of my oil cooler. I had a small one placed back on the firewall with a long curvy run of scat tube to it, and stealing air from one of the radiator inlets. 2" WC was not doing the oil temps much good.

Experimenting with different configurations of inlets to try to improve the oil cooling provided some surprising results. What I thought would work well made no difference, but experimenting with different configurations helped me double the differential accross the oil cooler and give adequate oil cooling for such an inefficient air path. (Of course all that has changed now as I continue to move and improve things...)

This seems like an easy way to establish base line measurements prior to making changes so you can determine if you are going in the right direction:)

Randy C
 
cooling problems

Hello everyone,

I bought a built RV-6. I had to put a new engine on it and prop. I installed a Titan 185hp. It has a nonstandard Vans cowling. The inlet has been modified with two 4.75 inch circle wholes in front (that?s about 35.4 sq.in.) and the exit is 84 sq.in. I have oil temps in the 225 range at cruise with the outside air at 75 degrees. My cylinder head temps range from 360 to 380. I am using a Dynon engine monitor.. Everything is new, eng. Oil cooler, temp prob.

Today I put a restriction on the exit to limit it to about 125% of the inlet. I still had high temps in all areas. I have not done all the testing I need to do, like inlet pressure and exit pressure.

I was just throwing this limited data out there to see what first impressions are and to gather some ideas on what to do next. My inlet is smaller than the standard vans cowl. One might assume that I need to get a new cowling. I am interested in ideas from those of you out there that have good experience with this subject..


PS, how do you post pictures. I was going to post photos of my inlet and exits of my cowling.
 
Hello everyone,

I bought a built RV-6. I had to put a new engine on it and prop. I installed a Titan 185hp. It has a nonstandard Vans cowling. The inlet has been modified with two 4.75 inch circle wholes in front (that?s about 35.4 sq.in.) and the exit is 84 sq.in. I have oil temps in the 225 range at cruise with the outside air at 75 degrees. My cylinder head temps range from 360 to 380. I am using a Dynon engine monitor.. Everything is new, eng. Oil cooler, temp prob.

Today I put a restriction on the exit to limit it to about 125% of the inlet. I still had high temps in all areas. I have not done all the testing I need to do, like inlet pressure and exit pressure.

I was just throwing this limited data out there to see what first impressions are and to gather some ideas on what to do next. My inlet is smaller than the standard vans cowl. One might assume that I need to get a new cowling. I am interested in ideas from those of you out there that have good experience with this subject..

I am no expert on this stuff - just try different things and hope for the best. Sometimes there is a gap from theory to what actually goes on in the real world and the only way to find out what works is to try it.

Your oil temp is high at 225 and 75? OAT. At 90? OAT you could see 240?.

Is the oil cooler attached to the #4 aft baffle? If the opening in the baffle to the cooler is near the same size as the cooler, it should work. If it is firewall mounted and connected with 3" scat, that could be the problem, 4" works much better by providing about 40% more air. I believe that to be the #1 reason my cooler works so well. There is a ton of air across it and the air exits the cowl quickly at the side Bonanza vent.

The James inlet rings are smaller than the Vans opening by about 25%, 35" compared to 45.5". But they should work. There's a lot of ram pressure in flight. As Randy mentions, you can check the effectiveness of all that ram air going somewhere by checking the pressure inside the bottom cowl. I have a Magnahelic inches of water column gauge. If you want to use it for some testing, send your address via PM and I will ship it post haste.
 
cooking problems

My Rv has the oil cooler mounted on the baffel behind #4. It has no restrictions, the opening for the cooler is the same size as the cooler.
My intake hole is 35.5 sq.in. I sealed up my leaks in the baffling the best I could. I just dont know what to do to increase the effectivness. I guess checking the intake and exit pressure is my next move..