T

tinman

Well Known Member
Recently, I flew my -8 into a class C airport in order to refresh my radio and procedure skills. It had been 18 years since my last controlled airspace encounter, so I was working hard to get it right. The inbound leg was uneventful. I taxied over to the GA area and shut down long enough to gather my wits and to prepare for the departure process. After talking with Clearance Delivery and Ground, I was taxied to an intersection and instructed to hold short of the runway. There was a LONG line of arrivals and after almost 15 minutes of holding, I was asked by Tower if I could execute an expedited departure. I replied that I could?and just sat there waiting on the magic words which never came. Finally, I asked Tower if they actually wanted me to go, and they said yes. I am still waiting on the magic words?nothing?
I then ask Tower ?Is 451BZ cleared for takeoff on runway xx??. Tower came back with the magic words- ?451BZ cleared for takeoff on xx.? which I read back, then took the runway and scooted on out of there.
The point of the post is to remind everyone, if in doubt, ask. I didn?t think that I had been given permission to enter the runway and it took two questions from me to get what I wanted to hear from Tower before I felt that I was actually cleared onto the runway. It just didn?t feel right.
 
tinman said:
The point of the post is to remind everyone, if in doubt, ask. I didn?t think that I had been given permission to enter the runway and it took two questions from me to get what I wanted to hear from Tower before I felt that I was actually cleared onto the runway. It just didn?t feel right.
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Seems like you did pretty good for an 18 years gap.
 
You were right.....

....Don, in that they asked you a question..."can you do an expedited take-off?"....they didn't clear you. The controller may have had a bad night;)

Best,
 
YEP!

Never taxi onto that active runway without hearing the "magic words". And visually checking traffic for yourself.
 
An Awful Lot of Trainees in ATC

Our ATC systems is undergoing the biggest influx of new people since the days of Reagan. I believe we have at least 6 trainees assigned to the tower at KPTK, and FAA.gov is listing jobs available all over the country in ATC. They are being supervised, but mistakes happen. Good post. It you're not sure, whether on the ground or in the sky, ASK. Even when you're cleared onto an active runway, check the sky. The system is pretty reliable, but it requires our active participation as well.
Terry, CFI
RV-9A N323TP
 
The controller did say a soft "thank you" over the radio as I rotated...didn't know if that was for getting off the ground so quick or for not creating a mess on the runway...
 
Can you imagine the trouble you'd have been in if you'd just taken his request as a clearance and taxied out onto the runway ... and unseen traffic became an issue?

You done good. ;)
 
tinman said:
There was a LONG line of arrivals and after almost 15 minutes of holding, I was asked by Tower if I could execute an expedited departure. I replied that I could?and just sat there waiting on the magic words which never came. Finally, I asked Tower if they actually wanted me to go, and they said yes. I am still waiting on the magic words?nothing?
I then ask Tower ?Is 451BZ cleared for takeoff on runway xx??. Tower came back with the magic words- ?451BZ cleared for takeoff on xx.? which I read back, then took the runway and scooted on out of there.
Click to expand...

When I was based at the local Class C airport I used to catch controller errors fairly regularly (it became kind of a game actually). Usually very minor ones, like wrong frequency assigned, forgetting which practice approach I had requested, etc. However, I once saw another airplane cross in front of me on an intersecting runway while I was starting my takeoff roll (apparently we had both received the "magic words"). Fortunately timing would have kept us apart, but not a good situation. I suspect that the other pilot started his takeoff a bit later than Tower anticipated.

Bottom line is that controllers are human too, and it pays to keep track of the big picture.
 
I think this was training weekend and the first weekend in a while where the weather has been nice and everybody was flying. Flying into Jekyll Island yesterday it took me over ten minutes to get through to Jacksonville so I could land. Back into Savannah it took another ten minutes to contact them.
 
tinman said:
The controller did say a soft "thank you" over the radio as I rotated...didn't know if that was for getting off the ground so quick or for not creating a mess on the runway...
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Probably for saving his bacon. I have always received courteous replies when asking for clarification of runway-related clearances.
 
Was telling you thanks for getting out of his airspace quickly! Which I've found can be a real benefit if the tower people know you or your type plane.
 
The other funny thing about this departure was that he asked how much runway I needed to take off. I told him 1,000'. He was laughing when he replied that he would work something up as quickly as possible...I ended up getting 1,900' of runway and needed around 800'. These RV's are awesome! I had my daughter in the back seat and she was enjoying having the big jets rolling by us.
 
Perfect

Making sure that things work safely requires ATC and pilots working together to catch errors...which will happen.

Look at this link

http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=54546

The biggie is "If in doubt...ask." The trouble is having that inner voice saying this is not right but not recognizing that the inner voice is right.

I was at an airport where I had to cross another runway. Since I did not recall if I had been cleared to cross it, I verified with ground control that I was cleared to do so. Short term memory issues but even if they were annoyed with me asking or laughed at me, does not matter. Better to ask than do something dumb.
 
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TODR ATC Rule #1: Trust, but verify.

TODR ATC Rule #2: Be helpful to the extent you can; play well with others.

Sounds like you did both.

TODR

(BTW, TODR ATC Rule #3: Remember that ATC works for you; don't skimp on your safety margins to help out someone else just because ATC asked.)
 
Good catch. I always intend to ask for the "magic words" when I don't hear them properly. Something I seem to be saying a lot recently is "...please verify 'IFR cancellation received'."
 
Understanding controlers

I don't post very often but had to comment.
I was landing at a controled airport and the controler had such a accent that it was really hard to understand him. I had him repeat a couple times and I could tell he was getting P Od at me.
I was really disgusted with the atitude.
 
I fly out of a Class D airport underlying the Class B MSP. Occasionally I'll use flight following and if I'm going anywhere of any distance, I'll report my intended altitude, which usually would bring me into the Class B early.

Almost every time after first contact, I'll be told to climb to XXX altitude. But almost every time I have to ask for the magic words.
 
ATC folks sometimes don't like experimentals

Usually this is just the opposite but you have to be very careful these folks sometimes view experimentals in a bad light and don't like to deal with them. My worst experiences are with Austin Approach and Atlanta Center - more than once at each place. Sometimes it almost seems like they are baiting you. You have to be very careful not to give them justification for their attitude. It sounds to me like you did exactly that and kept your end of the communication correct.

Bob Axsom
 
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