I

ionstram

I'm New Here
I wasn't looking at building a plane - was looking to buy a finished RV-6, but then I came across this project for sale locally to me, in which the builder claims it is "95% finished up to the firewall." It seems ideal because I can put an engine of my choice in it, choose my own paint job, and get exactly the avionics I would like. He is a 75 year old gentleman who unfortunately lost his medical and has decided to sell the project. He claims to have over 1000 hours already invested in building it. There is a Chevy engine installed, but he is not including this and is going to remove it before selling the project. I would put a Lycoming in it. I've attached photos he e-mailed me. Thanks in advance for any feedback - this would be my first build. My building experience so far is limited to Estes model rockets when I was a kid, and a couple of kit-build R/C cars. :) I know any time estimate is really, really rough. Is there at least a range people could point me to? As for avionics I'd probably go with a dual screen G3X system or a Dynon skyview, planning later to add a WAAS capable GPS like a Garmin 430 when finances allow.

Here is his e-mailed description of the progress so far:

"I am selling this project because I am 75 years old and can?t get my medical back after a heart attack a few years ago.
Wings are finished with finished tips with all lights including strobes and landing lights. Wings have the
Nav-aid device installed, see details below. Ailerons and Flaps are done. Flaps are electric. Fuel Tanks
are finished.
Horizontal Stabilizer has tips finished and has electric trim. Vertical Stabilizer also has tips top and
bottom finished.
Gear and brakes are installed and brake lines installed. Gear legs have fairings. The flaps are electric.
All cockpit panels have been fitted and installed. This includes the seats. (No upholstery) At this time they are not in place so as to get to all wiring. I have a wireing diagram but the wiring is not yet in final looms. For final proving purposes.
The instrument panel is upgraded to a fiberglass panel with two sub panels tilted toward pilot. No
upholstery yet. Instruments are the standard ones plus, Navaid device (see below), Apollo GX65 (see below), Lift Reserve indicator (see below), Military style flood lite adjustable to spot or flood, white or red. Military style stick grip with switches, Wig-wag for landing lights.
About 1,000 or more hours invested in assembly.
The engine is an alternative one which will be removed at the time the aircraft is sold, as it balances the aircraft so it can be moved on its wheels. Each wing is mounted separately on a 4 wheel dolly for easy transportation."

Photos at the link below:

http://s826.photobucket.com/albums/zz188/ionstram/RV-6A Project/

Thanks!
 
3 years???? :eek::eek::eek:

Well thanks for the dose of reality! I was hoping more like 3 weeks. :p

Seriously, I would make this a full time job and plan on putting in 50 hour weeks til finished, probably with the help of an experienced builder or at least my uncle (private pilot who taught wood and metal shop for many years - he's good with building stuff).

Maybe I should just go back to the original plan of getting a flying plane and then putting in a glass panel down the road.
 
Full time job with no distraction or waiting for parts along with a qualified builder assist you could cut down the time considerably....But there is some serious work ahead on that plane.
 
Depends on how much you work on it and how crazy you get with your panel. If you spend 10-20 hours a week, it could easily be done inside a year.

I figure you have;

100 hours - Canopy
100 hours - Firewall forward.
200 hours - Fiberglass - cowling, wheel pants, gear leg fairings.
50 - 250 hours - panel and electrical work.
0-150 hours - Paint (are you painting it or hiring it done?).
Final Assembly - 50 hours.

Total: 500 - 850 hours.

If you take this challenge, take a couple of experienced RV builders to give the project an in-depth inspection before you buy it. Also, find a building buddy or two who'll come by from time to time so you can bounce questions off of 'em. Feedback on these forums is great, but in-person feedback is much more valuable.

Again, get some experienced builders to look at the project before you make a committment. It's easy to overlook things that would be obvious to an experienced builder.
 
ionstram said:
3 years???? :eek::eek::eek:

Well thanks for the dose of reality! I was hoping more like 3 weeks. :p

Seriously, I would make this a full time job and plan on putting in 50 hour weeks til finished, probably with the help of an experienced builder or at least my uncle (private pilot who taught wood and metal shop for many years - he's good with building stuff).

Maybe I should just go back to the original plan of getting a flying plane and then putting in a glass panel down the road.
Click to expand...

You are probably going to have at least as many hours invested in research and education as actual construction. The learning curve for a novice builder jumping into an advanced project will be very, very steep.

If you want to build for the next year or so, this may be a good project. If you want to fly, best to pass on this one and purchase a complete plane.
 
Kyle Boatright said:
100 hours - Canopy
100 hours - Firewall forward.
200 hours - Fiberglass - cowling, wheel pants, gear leg fairings.
50 - 250 hours - panel and electrical work.
0-150 hours - Paint (are you painting it or hiring it done?). (later)
Final Assembly - 50 hours.

Total: 500 - 850 hours. (?)
Click to expand...

(subtract the things in red)

My opinion may not matter, since I havn't finished one. (BUT).....

3 years seems too long of an estimate. A novice builder could finish one from scratch in that time. Your time to complete the project would be a matter of your motivation, diligence and budget.
You may spend a long time just waiting for an engine or avionics.

Do a through inventory of what needs to be done and make an estimate based on your experience dealing with those elements (engine work, fiberglass, etc.)
 
jcaplins said:
(subtract the things in red)

My opinion may not matter, since I havn't finished one. (BUT).....

3 years seems too long of an estimate. A novice builder could finish one from scratch in that time. Your time to complete the project would be a matter of your motivation, diligence and budget.
You may spend a long time just waiting for an engine or avionics.

Do a through inventory of what needs to be done and make an estimate based on your experience dealing with those elements (engine work, fiberglass, etc.)
Click to expand...

he doesn't have any experience.
 
Jeff, why would you subtract those hours? finished airplanes have canopies, fairings and paint.

And I agree a novice builder MAY be able to complete one in 3yrs, but it is not the norm. Also as Sam noted, the learning curve is steep at this point and the instructions vague. A novice doesn't know, what he doesn't know.

I see a novice needing 500+hrs to FINISH that plane. Even if he has decent skills, knows exactly what to do next, no questions to ask and sticks to his 50hr work week, he'll need 3 months....no delays on parts. no taking a day off for family. But then IF he gets some really quality consistent help, those numbers could fall. But he'll still be looking at months and lots of money to speed things up.

YMMV, Mine is not finished either, but heck I've had to wait on my seats for 2 months, engine took 6 months, prop 9 months. So he needs to make all those decisions the day he buys the project and get that stuff heading to his shop. Anyway sorry potentially gloomy outlook, but building your 1st RV is no place to rush things. Plus you can buy one cheaper than you can build it these days
 
Thank you all very much for the replies and the insight - I really appreciate it.

I think this seals my decision - something that looks like it could stretch to 1000 hours is not my idea of a good time, when I could be spending that time flying, working on additional ratings, etc.

My initial impressions were maybe 200-300 hours, which I see as do-able for me.

But there is just something really appealing about "rolling my own" so to speak.

Thanks for the replies! I'm gonna pass on this, but for those of you who may find this project appealing, the owner has it up on Barnstormers and is asking $20K for it, which includes everything in the photos except for the engine.
 
hydroguy2 said:
Jeff, why would you subtract those hours? finished airplanes have canopies, fairings and paint.
Click to expand...

The gear leg fairings and canopy are done (I had to look at the pic's and read the project description a second time to pick that up), so that's a chunk of work out of the way.

Still, as Sam said, there is a huge learning curve for a new builder who's jumping into a 75% done project. During that first 75%, you have a lot of time to talk with friends, other builders, and to read these boards and figure out what direction you want to take on engine, prop, panel, lighting, and a hundred other issues that you need to resolve in your mind before you go buying all those expensive systems you buy as the project nears completion.
 
hydroguy2 said:
Jeff, why would you subtract those hours? finished airplanes have canopies, fairings and paint......
....... Anyway sorry potentially gloomy outlook, but building your 1st RV is no place to rush things. Plus you can buy one cheaper than you can build it these days
Click to expand...

True. This funky economy has not spared anyone and there are airplanes on the market for less than replacement cost if you watch the ads.

The question is do you want to fly - or experience building your own airplane and fly?

FWIW, I believe you can scratch build a RV-7 as quick as completing a half built -6 and realize a lot of personal satisfaction doing it. Any of Van's matched drilled kits are a piece of cake to build - unless one is not a builder by genetic default.

If $$$ matter above all else, the least cost probably can be found in a partially completed kit as you describe or a desperation sale of a flying airplane.

The choice is yours. For me it is a no brainer, I'd much rather build and fly my own machine.
 
"I wasn't looking at building a plane - was looking to buy a finished RV-6,............ in which the builder claims it is "95% finished up to the firewall"

One thing you may not have thought of is that, from a Lycoming standpoint, the cowl furnished with the project has been FUBAR'ed and is pretty much trash so.......more than likely you'll have to buy a new one. Also, you'll have to buy a new engine mount. I don't know for sure but, I'd say a new cowl, engine mount and shipping etc. will set you back in the neighborhood of $2000 or so!

Sam has a really valid point in that a novice builder jumping into the middle of this project will spend a lot of non-productive hours just "catching up".

Time wise, I agree with the 3 year estimate. I think you'll spend 400-500 hours a year for at least 3 years before this baby gets off the ground!

Hope this helps,
 
Last edited:
Hey Jeff, you win.

we'll just have to agree to disagree. My definition of done is different from yours....From the pics I looked at, those parts are not done.
 
For the record I have no engine, fiberglass or electronics experience. I would enjoy building, but not for 1,000 hours, and in my experience if one person on this thread is stating they think I can be done in 500, and someone else says 1,000 - I'll bet that 1,000 is closer to it.

It would be a fascinating process and I would learn a lot - if I had enough time and money to buy two planes - one flying and one as a kit, I think I'd do it.

A simpler project of removing a steam gauge panel out of a flying airplane and replacing it myself with a glass panel is something I think I'm more up to the challenge for.
 
Chris,

In my opinion based on your comments, I think you would not be happy with this project in the long run.

Bottom line is you should build an airplane because you want to build an airplane. To build an airplane because you want an airplane is the wrong answer.
 
Hi Mel,

Thanks - your bottom line is correct. I would enjoy having a plane I built because I would know it inside and out and equip it exactly the way I want it - but not enough to spend 1,000 hours of my life on the project when my primary interest is flying. It was the "95% complete" line in the ad that caught my eye. :)

On the other hand, if you enjoy building for its own sake, not as a means to an end (flying), then I'm sure that building is the right decision.

Thanks,

Chris
 
I think who ever thinks this project is 95% complete, either does not really know much about building or not honest about it. When all of those listed above are done then maybe one can claim that 95% is done and still you still have another 95% to go.

Good luck either way and fly safe
 
To be fair to the seller - when I asked the seller for an estimate on how much time was left to complete it he said he didn't know.
 
Yet more perspective ...

Mel said:
Chris,

In my opinion based on your comments, I think you would not be happy with this project in the long run.

Bottom line is you should build an airplane because you want to build an airplane. To build an airplane because you want an airplane is the wrong answer.
Click to expand...

First, I agree with Mel (who wouldn't? :) )

Second, two different comments to consider:

1. My partner and I go a "project" many years ago that was "about 4 months from flying with limited instrumentation". Of course we did not think that was the case for us. Four and a half YEARS later it flew! Life happens and picking up on a project that is already underway takes FAR MORE time than most would estimate.
Remember, all that stuff that is done will be (should be) REVIEWED by you and that takes a LOT more time than you think to read up on, review the drawings, double check how it was done and figure out how to fix that which is not to your liking.

2. I had another RV project underway at the time as well. Once the first RV got to FLYING, the project slowly started collecting more dust!!

I do plan to finish it. It is past the "95%" done and that was 1300+ hours ago of flying the one we completed!

The points here are that a project will take longer than expected and if you have a flying RV, the project will take YET EVEN LONGER than expected.


This may be a great deal for you but as a new builder, you need to go in with eyes wide open so both you and the seller are happy in the end.

Now a "repeat offender" who is bored stiff and "just gotta build" probably could knock it out in almost no time flat. And for that person it would be a GREAT deal.

James
 
Not Half Done

I don't believe that plane is halfway done. The structure is less than half the work on the plane. Putting in all the systems is very time consuming because each one is different, so you have a lot of learning to do for each one.

Hans
 
3 years at best.

Hi

Firstly, ignore anyone who makes any guesses who has never built one, they have no idea what they are talking about.

Secondly, understand that that auto engine will if completed add considerably to the complexity of the job adding lots of hours. My RV4 was way past this stage this time last year and I estimated at 4 to 5 full days a week it would be done by this April.

Bear in mind I have built an RV9, a Kitfox, a Tailwind, and this RV4 so do have some experience. I guestimated it would be finished by last April. Well now its nearly August and while i am at the painting stage its stll taking a long time.

Being new to this you will make mistakes which will cost you time and money. The bottom line is build only if you enjoy building, if you are not someone who likes this type of work buy a finished project.

Regards
 
I am a non-builder so probably don't know squat. However, this is easy. The project is $20,000. The installed engine is not worth using so add a Lycoming O-360. nevermind, use the Vans cost estimator and here is what you get

Price Breakdown Low High
RV-7A Standard kit $21110 $21110
New Lycoming O-360-A1A 180HP $23500 $27210
Hartzell constant-speed prop $6590 $10920
Prop governor and cabling $1350 $1350
Firewall forward accessories $3400 $4800
Electronic flight instruments $3200 $4400
VFR cross country instruments $1100 $1100
Nav and landing lights / strobes $890 $890
VFR cross country avionics $2800 $5000
Basic electrical system $400 $1000
Cushions / harnesses $900 $900
Professional paint $6000 $6000
Tool kit / power tools $2000 $2000
Total Kit $73240 $86680

Low end is over $70,000 total. For that amount you should be able to get a flying aircraft and not spend one year, two, or three building.
 
I think I would advise to get the project inspected to check the workmanship.If it checks out okay with no major problems.Then build it as simple as possible 150 hp. fix pitch.vfr panel.The stage of the project you won't need many special tools.Meet some other builders and have a airplane at the end of the journey. For me building our 6 is right there with getting married and raising our family.So I say go for it. David
 
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