rocketbob

Well Known Member
I've recently started training to get a commercial ticket and am wondering what entry speeds and power settings are used for practicing chandelles, lazy 8's, 8's on pylons in RVs.
 
I do chandelles, lazy 8's and steep turns pretty regularly when I out just making holes in the sky. I usually use 120 - 125 kts as my entry speed.
 
I would recommend getting a copy of the commercial pts and see what specs it requires for these . It has been a long time for me but as I remember it they are entered at Va or manuvering speed. The power setting will change as they are done.
 
I am kicking around getting a commercial ticket myself.

Am I correct in thinking that all the training and checkride can be done in an -8? There's no special reason to go rent something certified?
 
I am kicking around getting a commercial ticket myself.

Am I correct in thinking that all the training and checkride can be done in an -8? There's no special reason to go rent something certified?

You are incorrect. You will see the requirements for complex. Many have done all their training and most of their check ride in an RV. Then jump in a complex to demonstrate the complex landing practical requirements. This of course assume you meet the min requirements which include complex hours. Practical test standards where changed in 2012.
 
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I got my commercial in late 2012. Did most of the checkride in a 152 and the complex portion in a Cardinal RG. Had access to an RV, but chose to use a slower and simpler spam can for the checkride. I'm sure the maneuvers can be learned fairly easily in an RV, but much easier in a slow bird, IMHO. I did my IFR in a Cherokee 180 for the same reason. Things happen a lot slower so you have a lot more time to think it through and nail the needles.

Check with the DPE first to make sure he will do it in 2 planes and will do it in an experimental. Some will and some won't.
 
Most comm maneuvers , Chandelles , lazy eights etc are done at manuevering speed of aircraft being used.

Bird
 
The PTS standard is to never exceed Va. So Chandelles are entered at Va, lazy 8's are no more than Va at the bottom, eights on pylons no more than Va when directly into the wind.
Contrary to a previous post, these manevers are done at fixed power settings, airspeeds vary. Chandelles use climb power settings, start at Va, end with the stall horn on.
As others stated, the precision landings/takeoffs must be demonstrated in a retractable. At your option the other maneuvers may be done in a different aircraft, but examiners may opt out of E-AB aircraft at their discretion. Many just do the whole thing in a 172RG or Arrow. If you use two aircraft the examiner may want to see two logbooks, two preflights, ask questions on the oral about both airplanes, etc.
 
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The PTS says the recommended entry configuration power and airspeed.
The handbook says a speed no greater the the maximum entry airspeed recommended by the manufacturer, in most cases not above design Va.

Clear as mud?
 
You are incorrect. You will see the requirements for complex. Many have done all their training and most of their check ride in an RV. Then jump in a complex to demonstrate the complex landing practical requirements. This of course assume you meet the min requirements which include complex hours. Practical test standards where changed in 2012.

Doh!

I have the complex endorsement and time, just need to get one for a couple of hours and that part of the ride I guess. thanks mike
 
Mike,
In case you run into an over zealous examiner, note that your logbook should show a minimum of 10 hours dual in a complex airplane, with those 10 hours dedicated to the specific items listed in FAR 61.127.

Edit: you should also plan to study the POH of that airplane. I recall my examiner wanted to know the working pressure of the hydraulic gear system.

Bob
 
Checkride in complex

It has been awhile, but I was told, by the potential examiners, that the required PTS maneuvers, on the checkride, must be done in the complex --- I ended up doing mine in an Aztec (got the multi at same time), and then went through some TO/Lndg in a Archer to fill in all the blanks to have a Comm SMEL.

Working toward any new rating is a great way to keep up with things and expand your respect for our vocation or avocation.

Ron
 
I didn't have the ASEL on my certificate when I made the decision to buy my RV-6, I added the Commercial ASEL in a Cherokee 150, flying about 8 hours including the eval. That was more than needed, but I hadn’t flown anything except the C-23 in years and I knew I would be jumping into an RV right away, I felt like I could use the SE time. The Army training I had done did include some single engine time, but did not include the ASEL Commercial maneuvers such as the Lazy 8, it was focused on preparing for the upcoming multi-engine training. I found all the maneuvers to be easy, but the Lazy 8 was more challenging than the others for me because it is such a slow “lazy” maneuver. I initially had an issue with rushing it.

Although it’s not Army Aircrew Training Manual detail to be sure, I thought the PTS was clear enough, non-specific in many ways, but it clearly spells out the STANDARD you must meet. When words like “recommended” and “should” are found in the PTS and the FAA Airplane Flying Handbook – instead of shall or will, you need to note that. If the aircraft manufacturer has specified entry speeds in the POH you would comply with those of course.

In the RV I have found that it’s important to start the Lazy 8 nice and slow, (around Va works!) it’s much more difficult to do this maneuver well in my -6 than it was in the Cherokee just because a little extra speed/power at the start makes it next to impossible to be on speed/on altitude at the 180. To be level around Va in an RV is going to be a lot less power than the cruise power mentioned in the Handbook of course.

Ref. the PTS:
Task D: Lazy Eights (ASEL and ASES)
Reference: FAA-H-8083-3.
Objective: To determine that the applicant:
1. Exhibits satisfactory knowledge of the elements related to lazy eights.
2. Selects an altitude that will allow the task to be performed no lower than 1,500 feet AGL.
3. Establishes the recommended entry configuration, power, and airspeed.
4. Maintains coordinated flight throughout the maneuver.
5. Achieves the following throughout the maneuver—
a. approximately 30° bank at the steepest point.
b. constant change of pitch and roll rate.
c. altitude tolerance at 180° point, ±100 feet from entry altitude.
d. airspeed tolerance at the 180° point, plus ±10 knots from entry airspeed.
e. heading tolerance at the 180° point, ±10°.
6. Continues the maneuver through the number of symmetrical loops specified and resumes straight-and-level flight.

Ref: FAA Handbook 8083-3-B
"The correct power setting for the lazy eight is that
which will maintain the altitude for the maximum and
minimum airspeeds used during the climbs and
descents of the eight. Obviously, if excess power were
used, the airplane would have gained altitude when the
maneuver is completed; if insufficient power were
used, altitude would have been lost."

"Prior to performing a lazy eight, the airspace behind
and above should be clear of other air traffic. The
maneuver should be entered from straight-and-level
flight at normal cruise power and at the airspeed
recommended by the manufacturer or at the airplane’s
design maneuvering speed."
 
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To be level around Va in an RV is going to be a lot less power than the cruise power mentioned in the Handbook of course.

Doug, yep this is exactly why I asked. I've been practicing the maneuvers in the RV and have found it a little tricky to get to PTS standards. After I finish some work on my C150 I will start practicing in that as well to get me in tune for the 172RG I'll be flying.
 
It has been awhile, but I was told, by the potential examiners, that the required PTS maneuvers, on the checkride, must be done in the complex --- I ended up doing mine in an Aztec (got the multi at same time), and then went through some TO/Lndg in a Archer to fill in all the blanks to have a Comm SMEL.

Working toward any new rating is a great way to keep up with things and expand your respect for our vocation or avocation.

Ron

This is incorrect. Only the landings, takeoffs, and emergency procedures need be in a complex aircraft. Of course, since your initial commercial license was MEL, it is pretty hard to find a fixed gear multi, although there are some.

Some examiners may charge more if you use two aircraft, since that will make the test longer.

PS I have never seen any two cfi's or examiners agree on what a lazy eight should look like! But most agree they are lazy (slow).
 
I will start practicing in that as well to get me in tune for the 172RG I'll be flying.

My story: I used a 172RG too. Examiner had me do the power off landing at an airport with about a 15G20 crosswind. I touched down okay (imho!) but slightly misaligned with the runway direction. Examiner took the controls, said, "Let me show you how it's done". Then he proceeded to touch down crooked, a bit worse than my attempt. "Not a lot of rudder authority in this plane, is there?" was his only comment, and the test continued!!
 
Rocket Bob,
There is nothing wrong with doing the check ride in two aircraft your RV and a complex as BOB Turner states, the bank requirements in a Lazy 8 have changed and now they are very gentle 15 degree bank at the 45 and 135 degree position and 30 degree bank at the 90. This makes them harder to keep the ball centered and if the pitch attitude is not high enough you will have a hard time reaching the 135 degree spot in the Lazy 8 at a 15 degree bank.
Some examiners are very picky on the Chandelle that any further moment aft of the yoke or stick would produce a stall and have had some of my students stated the examiner wanted the student to stall the aircraft from that point.... This of course was their own little test and really not required but you can not really argue with the examiner since a power on stall is a commercial maneuver.

Maneuvering speed is good of all maneuvers including steep turns.
Gliding spirals can be done with up to a 60 degree bank. Nothing wrong with you adding a few RPM's every couple of turns to clear out the engine. You do not have pull the power to an abrupt idle on any maneuver you can do a gradual power reduction and you can state this before the flight exam. This has been a discussion with examiners especially multi engine.
Jack
 
Another thought is that if you are getting dual with an instructor you might consider seeing if the examiner you plan to use will do a couple of hours with you. This way you will get to know each other and learn what the examiner expects from your demonstrations.