Phyrcooler

Phyrcooler

Well Known Member
I started to respond within the other thread on Collision Avoidance http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=14724 but realized I was starting to get off that threads topic a bit. While the new little collision avoidance devices are a good addition... and I will probably put one on my plane... I think that Bill Repucci stated it well:

Just remember, these things only point out airplanes with operating transponders and there is a LOT of aircraft flying without such things, flying with them turned off, or broken.

You still need to look outside.
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This brought up some other thoughts that I have pondered in the past.

We paint (Or don't paint) our airplanes almost purely on aesthetic considerations. Yet... I can't help but wonder if some of our paint jobs actually camouflage our aircraft against either the ground or sky. And while I think that an all yellow airplane is UGLY... is it safer?

The related collision previously posted was nearly a head-on. I myself have had several of those disturbing "where did he come from" close passes. I always leave my "landing lights" ON as a tool to help avoid one of those head-on "OH ****'s". (Yet I was once somewhat berated by my instructor who grumbled about having to replace them about every 25 hours...! )

I am further amazed about the lack of R&D into improving how we light up our aircraft. I don't mean just changing the bulbs from incandescent to LED or HID... but full out improvement and possibly adding of additional bright flashing lights to improve daytime visibility. We have taken amazing strides in the warning equipment of our emergency vehicles... but aircraft seem to have the same Nav/Warning/landing light scheme from 1950.

For example... most strobes have little or no reflector. This coupled with the extremely short "on" time of the flash make them a terrible warning device. (except at night) Manufacturers developed double flash and quad flash devices to try to overcome this delima... but ultimately most emergency service users have moved away from strobe to LED. Strobes just weren't that good during the day. (to say nothing of the inherent "electronic noise" issues...)

LED's are bright, have much longer "on" times... and are still a very low energy draw.

I'd like to see the FAA sanction or conduct some studies which would involve putting additional lights around the aircraft so we can have much brighter warning from all angles.

For me... even if my airplane will be primarily flown during the day... it will have full lighting and anything additional allowed. (Although, if I am correct... even as experimental aircraft we can't deviate from FAA lighting standards...???) Hopefully by utilizing LED's - I can keep the energy draw down equal or less than current incandescent lit aircraft.

DJ
 
I completely agree. For many people, myself included, building an experimental is a way to take advantage of most (although not all) of the technology available. However, I think many builders only consider what is being done in certified airplanes, and perhaps improve upon it, as opposed to engineering systems that make sense, from a safety standpoint.

Mike
 
Phyrcooler said:
(Although, if I am correct... even as experimental aircraft we can't deviate from FAA lighting standards...???)
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Actually you CAN deviate from the FARs during daytime VFR.
91.205 only applies to amateur-builts for night and/or IFR.
 
Colors

Phyrcooler said:
We paint (Or don't paint) our airplanes almost purely on aesthetic considerations. Yet... I can't help but wonder if some of our paint jobs actually camouflage our aircraft against either the ground or sky. And while I think that an all yellow airplane is UGLY... is it safer?
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Not particulary scientific, but while I was flying my '8' before painting I had not one, but three tower controllers comment on how easy my airplane was to see. It was mostly nasty yellow chromate primer with the 'glass parts white. I took these comments to heart and painted her yellow and white with a bit of trim. Some colors are nearly invisible depending on the background. I was told to avoid colors that occur frequently in nature like blues and greens. Yellow sky is a little scarce. :)

John Clark
RV8 N18U "Sunshine"
KSBA
 
Phyrcooler, I saw a DOT study a number of years ago that found that the best color for vehicle visibility in fog and low light conditions was white or light colored paints. I would imagine the same would apply to our planes. I intend to make myself more visible by installing some recognition lights at least in the wingtips of my RV8. I would also like to figure out where i can get some side and aft facing recognition lighting. I intend to use some Whelen TIR3 Ultra LED lights for this purpose to keep current draw down. Take a look at these on the www.strobesnmore.com website. It would be nice if these could completely replace the strobe tubes also. If you have any ideas for side and aft facing recognition light placement pass them on. I am also thinking of using these in red and green for position lighting. Tony
 
westwinds said:
Phyrcooler, I saw a DOT study a number of years ago that found that the best color for vehicle visibility in fog and low light conditions was white or light colored paints. I would imagine the same would apply to our planes. I intend to make myself more visible by installing some recognition lights at least in the wingtips of my RV8. I would also like to figure out where i can get some side and aft facing recognition lighting.
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I read something similar. I think anything bright, light and non-earth tone would be superior. BUT... how far am I willing to sacrifice aesthetics for safety? Even I'd be the first to admit to being a bit vain about my toys.

I am leaning towards 'old-school'... Polished aluminum with a nail-polish red trim. I think that for day flight, there is a good chance of some part of the aircraft being able to reflect a glint of sunlight in a lot of different (and hopefully right) directions.

I am researching lighting... and will continue to do so as I prepare to build. (Soon I hope). I am also considering a small smoke system. :D I have heard that it is an outstanding feature to be able to give a little blip of smoke to help someone who is looking for you. Maybe some intermittent puffs in the pattern??! I don't plan on leaving contrails... but I'd give up a few pounds of weight to have that ability. Anybody with smoke able to attest to it's value?

DJ
 
Somebody posted a video of them chasing dan and his -7 here in so cal. dan turned hard and dove and the chase plane followed. After a second or two, his plane became invisable aghnist the typical dry so cal scrub on the rolling hills EXCEPT for the white wing tips. I dont know if it was the color, or the blocky, shape, but the bare aluminum and grey primer on the fuse and tail totaly blended in with the terrain. Something to think about...not only are the colors a factor in your eyes seeing something, but also the shape. Swoopy multicolor paintjobs designed to fool your eyes as to the airplanes shape...probaly not the best for visability.
 
Some time back I remember a company that offered small spot lights that were to be mounted at the base and on both sides of the VS and were directed at it.

The theory was that highlighting this tall vertical surface would make airplanes more visible in all conditions.

In a quick search, I couldn't find reference. Do any of the rest of you remember this system?
 
It's a rare airliner these days that doesn't have "tail lights". There weren't any twenty years ago. Sure enhances visibility on the ground especially, but I'm not sure that it does much for inflight visibility. I think that the tail lights are good for short range mostly, but surely can't hurt. I doubt very much if they would do anything at all for you in daylight.
 
westwinds said:
I intend to use some Whelen TIR3 Ultra LED lights for this purpose to keep current draw down. Take a look at these on the www.strobesnmore.com website.
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I'd be interested to know how these end up working, if you do use them. I've looked at rolling my own LED-based recognition lights, but the Whelen automotive units you mentioned (more info here) are certainly compelling for the price. Too bad there doesn't seem to be much data available on how bright they actually are. Still, for fifty bucks I might have to pick one up and see how far away it can be seen during the day...

mcb
 
Visibility was a primary concern when I designed my paint job. I figured that black would be good looking up, black against light blue or white; and white would be good looking down against the earth. I still feel that way.

Unpainted I got comments that the airplane was pretty much invisible.

I think it is esthetically OK, even though that wasn't the primary consideration.

I always wonder about the camo paint jobs!
 
Tis hard to see planes at times

I had one coming opposite my direction...same altitude...seven miles apart (pointed out by COS approach).

I dropped 500' yet never saw it.

That is not unusual.
 
I have recently been watching other planes to note the visible and invisible colors. Most days so far have been pretty cloudy, which has slanted conclusions. I am in northwestern Oregon (30 mi. from Van's) which gives me farmland, forest or suburbs for background most of the time.

So far, most observations seem obvious.

At far distances, all planes looked dark.

A white plane disappeared against haze.

White planes were not very visible from below when there were clouds. Note that most factory built planes are white, not for safety, but because it is the cheapest color.

Dark planes disappeared more easily when viewed from above.

A friend has a baby poop brown Luscombe and when I flew above it, it disappeared against dry hay fields, which were more of a yellow color. Over timber, he was quite visible. I suspect he would get lost to my view over eastern Oregon with desert and wheat predominating.

One mostly yellow plane did seem to be the most readily visible.

Suburbs seem to be the most difficult background to spot an airplane against.

These are only a few observations so far and I intend to continue watching.

I guess the point is that you should note how visible planes are in your area, because different backgrounds make a big difference.
 
Black is it, according to the RAF

Black is the most visible colour according to the RAF and they paint all their aircraft flying training missions black. I have been in the air in the UK with a few fast jets flying around painted black and with a helpful LARS (radar) vector, you can spot them from an impressive distance.

http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/FactSheets/Tucano.htm

A
 
edneff said:
It's a rare airliner these days that doesn't have "tail lights". There weren't any twenty years ago. Sure enhances visibility on the ground especially, but I'm not sure that it does much for inflight visibility. I think that the tail lights are good for short range mostly, but surely can't hurt. I doubt very much if they would do anything at all for you in daylight.
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Actually they are referred to as "logo lights" for obvious reasons. I have heard a story that the original idea more for advertising around the terminal than collision avoidance. But, as you note, they are very effective on the ground and, in my experience, in a busy terminal area. Another option is "ice lights" usually mounted in the sides of the fuselage and focused out the wing. Same effect as the logo light except it lights the front edge of the wing.

John Clark
RV8 N18U "Sunshine"
KSBA
 
I had LoPresti Boom Beam landing lights installed on my Mooney. The bulbs are guaranteed for 5000 hours, and they are incredibly brighter. Worth the price just for night landings alone.
My RV6 has a switch to turn the landing lights on to "Wig Wag" like a flashing motorcycle headlight. I'm guessing it is a lot easier to see the flashing lights.
 
A couple of comments.

It would be very hard to find white in nature. Even clouds and snow have very little white in them, mostly greys, and blacks. Unless it is morning or evening and then you have those dang reds and oranges.

The planes that we want to avoid us, and us to avoid, are close to our flight level. The ones that are above us and have overhead clouds as a background are not of that much concern. The planes below use and have farms, cities and deserts are not of much concern.

The ones that are of the most concern are going to have a more blended background. It could be dark (mountains, forest, etc) or light (clouds, snow, etc).

There are exceptions, but we have to play the odds.

My plane is white. I think that it is the most visible color. I will be adding some color with vinyl, but most of the plane will stay white. I don't think that the difference between white and some other colors would be that much as far as visibility is concerned. So colors will hide you from other pilots.

Keep in mind being hidden from the ground or from someone looking at you from above is not a problem.

JMHO

Kent
 
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Lights during the day are worthless

Wig wag may help if someone is coming right at you but all these other lighting options most likely do nada during the day.
 
HID WIG WAGS

I was working outside just last weekend and we had a Mooney come into the airpark. It had a flashing HID taxi light (one just below and right of spinner). With just that one light it was very easy to spot on approach. I was very surprised at the effectiveness. He had his strobes on and you couldn't see those until it was 100 feet away.

Am trying to figure that into my budget.
 
There are probably better things to worry about than a midair collision anyway. There are only about ten a year out of 30,000,000 general aviation hours of flying. That being said, a Christian Eagle came darting into the pattern at St. Augustine from above and behind me and took the prop off of my Mooney M20C ten years ago while I was on mid final approach. Got a new engine and prop out of the deal, but my (ex) wife never flew with me again. Makes a great hangar flying story.

And daytime running lights wouldn't have helped me a bit. Maybe a rear view mirror.
 
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