captzoom

I'm New Here
About to undertake improving RV-4 cockpit fresh air ventilation for Texas summer requirements. Would appreciate hearing about your own improvements, both what works and what doesn't. Have limited panel space, acft now has one eyeball vent in panel ducted through firewall, and three virtually ineffective adjustable NACA vent things in canopy fairing skirt (2 in aft, 1 in fwd seats). Thinking about Van's RV-10 fuse side panel tilt-out doors at front and rear seats, plus exhaust vent under baggage compt floor.

Thanks for input.
 
Captain Zoom, I built my -4 with the RV10 vents.

You can see the PAX vent in this picture. If you double click the picture, and look carefully, you can just see the location aft of the roll bar attach position. I am not sure there is a picture of the front one but its about by my right knee, below the cowl cheek. Both provide a hurricane Katrina quantity of ventilation. to the point I will never want them fully open.

I took a bit of a chance but I am 100% satisfid with the result. I suspect they steal .001 Knts from my performance, but to have plenty of fresh air is well worth it. (The 'cool' decisions probably save more than that in fuel!)

Install them carefully so that you can shut them off. They close well into the boundary layer and provide no detectable air flow, though I have to admit to a bit of tape over the leading edge of the front one during the coldest days of winter just to remove a cold spot.

I havnt flown my -4 in really hot weather yet. It has occurred to me that I might want air directed right onto my face in those circumstances. They wont do exactly that in all honesty but I think the general 'wind' inside will be enough.

PS Yes there is a picture of the front one here, below the fuse panel. (Top picture) Again double click it. It is perhaps just a little hard to reach. If I were doing it again I might move it .5" aft and .5" up. No big problem though.
 
Above the cheek

I put my RV-10 style vents above the cheek. Now I get Cat 5 hurricane winds to the chest. I don't ever open it fully while airborne. It is just too much air. Works great on the ground since it is in the prop wash. Highly recommend using these vents where ever you place them.
 
Captain Zoom, I built my -4 with the RV10 vents.

You can see the PAX vent in this picture. If you double click the picture, and look carefully, you can just see the location aft of the roll bar attach position. I am not sure there is a picture of the front one but its about by my right knee, below the cowl cheek. Both provide a hurricane Katrina quantity of ventilation. to the point I will never want them fully open.

I took a bit of a chance but I am 100% satisfid with the result. I suspect they steal .001 Knts from my performance, but to have plenty of fresh air is well worth it. (The 'cool' decisions probably save more than that in fuel!)

Install them carefully so that you can shut them off. They close well into the boundary layer and provide no detectable air flow, though I have to admit to a bit of tape over the leading edge of the front one during the coldest days of winter just to remove a cold spot.

I havnt flown my -4 in really hot weather yet. It has occurred to me that I might want air directed right onto my face in those circumstances. They wont do exactly that in all honesty but I think the general 'wind' inside will be enough.

PS Yes there is a picture of the front one here, below the fuse panel. (Top picture) Again double click it. It is perhaps just a little hard to reach. If I were doing it again I might move it .5" aft and .5" up. No big problem though.
What did you do to allow the air to escape the cockpit? Or does it not need some type of exhaust vent?
 
This is something that is not intuitive. I have a NACA duct on the skirt (front seat) that should blow air in but sucks air out! A NACA duct on the rear skirt for the back does blow air in! I rode in the back of a -4 where the rear of the canopy did not have a tight seal and blew air in on the back of my neck.
 
What did you do to allow the air to escape the cockpit? Or does it not need some type of exhaust vent?

538pg, nothing in particular. There are quite a few options for the air to exit if you think about it. Its ram air so its going to get out.

In no particular order:

1.The canopy hinge line, but my guess this is very minor. (Where there is not leakage is around the canopy itself.
2. Water drain holes in the bottom of the fuselage. Several, but 3/16 only.
3. My aileron push rods are sealed tight, but there is scope for leakage around the flap push rods
4. My guess is the main route is down the fuselage and into the stab fairing. From there there is some room between the stab spar and the fiberglass fairing and on into the space between stab and rudder. (I did make sure there was a path through the baggage bulkhead. That was the only specific provision I made.) It could also leak spanwise through the horizontal stab and exit beside the elevator horns and (I think) into the HS/elevator interface.

Similarly, I think there is a path up inside the rudder, but a very small exit. So nothing major but lots of minor routes.

It gets out OK!
 
I'm not flying yet, but I went with a rv-10 vent under each cheek. I used no ducting but am thinking about maybe a small battery powered fan attached to the roll bar for my rear-seater.
 
Some Ideas, or wild a guessing

and three virtually ineffective adjustable NACA vent things in canopy fairing skirt (2 in aft, 1 in fwd seats). Thinking about Van's RV-10 fuse side panel tilt-out doors at front and rear seats, plus exhaust vent under baggage compt floor. Thanks for input.
If you search the web the forums there is some good info. I posted some info. Due to prop wash the canopy NACA vents are pretty poor. However I put some VG's vortex generators in front of them. It is hard to describe and don't have a picture, but

>two VG's
>The VG's are about 1.25" to 1.5: long and 1/4" or 3/8" tall
>The front of the VG's can be radused, looks good ....
>VG's fwd of the NACA scoop on the either side of the NACA center line
>VG's angled about 20-30 degrees from the center line, closer together at fwd end than aft end
>VG's are about ~1" apart at front of VG and wider at the aft end because they are angled of course
>VG's aft ends will end about where the scoop starts.


VG......................./
flow of air >>>>>>...<[[[[[[[scoop]
VG.......................\

The back-slash and fwd-slash are not at the proper angles, but it shows what I mean. This is not my idea but I tried it and it worked. I think the credit comes from an old RVator. I forgot which one was more affective but with the above VG's the flow went from nothing to something on one and light to excellent in flight. The VG's where alumunyn T's with two way tape. They where real VG's. The plane was white with the gold anodized VG's in front of the NACA scoops it looked good. I had spares thinking they would fall off and experiment. They never did fall off and it worked so well from the first itteration I left them alone. The angle distance and postion fwd/aft I just made it look good. WHAT DOES IT DO? It trips the boundry layer and keeps the prop wash from dominating across the NACA scoop, I think.

For taxi I had a custom partial canopy holder that keep it cracked and there was no problem with breeze with the big fan shouving air (prop).

Also you should reduce leaks into the cockpit from the aft baggage compartment and alerion area. It may seem good to have air come in but what it does is fight your vents and keeps air from flowing.

The three golden rules of HVAC (heating ventalation and air condition) for comfort is:

Temp: Not much we can do about that
Humidity: Not much we can do about that
Flow: Convective flow, not statignant.

The latter rule is where we get our comfort, that feeling of air flow across the skin. This is why a fan works even though it is not AC.

So how do you get more air flow into the cockpit from the vents. You have to get OUT FLOW. Makes sense. If you seal the heck out of the cockpit you really are not going to get AIR FLOW across you for comfort. In some of my other post I talk about putting in a belly scoop to get that flow.

A lot of leaks around the canopy in all models are both in and out. You will get these little leak couples. None of it is reall good since its not in your control. In winter they make cold drafts and in summer they keep the vents (or heater) from working well because of the issue of pressureizing the cockpit, fighting the vents where you DO want air from. I found my RV-4 leaked like crazy around the aft canopy. I sealed it as best I could. It did not pose much of an issue. I flew in a very temperate North West and heating was more important. I few solo mostly in the cold months and in the summer, X-C's with a passenger, temp was not an issue, since it was mostly at altitude where its cooler. I also had two pretty good vents on the canopy front and back, left side after the VG's where put on. I never tried to improve the HVAC so to speak till I sold that plane. My RV7 is a little different and plan on trying the belly exit vent.

From Walmart I got some sun shades that have suction cups. The Girlfriend never complained but than shes a trooper. The idea is to get to altitude and

The POP out RV-10 scoops might be OK, they are going to be more drag, but you can retract them and adjust as needed.


OUTFLOW EXIT VENT

I personally have not done this but a RV-8'er did, but I am a BIG FAN of this idea. I have been thinking of this for a good bit. Again serach the forums, I have some post with pictures. He found that leaks around the aft canopy caused air to leak in on the neck of the back seater in cold weather. None of the heat was making it to the back seater. He put in vents on the back deck of the fuselage and ducted it to the belly. Problem soloved. In this case he was he was not really so much as sucking cold air drafts out but causing a low pressure area that DREW the warm air from the heater in the front registers to the back. Same principle will work with cold air.

If you don't have air going through the cockpit it is static and causes it to be uncomforatble hot or cold.
 
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Cool it...

Zoom (or whoever you are)

I used canopy skirt NACA vents when I built my -4 back in the 90's with poor results in the AL summer (flight = sweat!). I added VG's which helped a bit but the best improvement was doing three things:
1. Buying a pair of Larry Vetterman flip out vents and one Van's NACA duct and installing them on the fuselage sides. The Vetterman's above the throttle (front seat) and left knee (back). The Van's just aft of the Rudder pedals.

2. Drilling 4 -3" holes in my baggage compartment rear door, put screen behind the holes. Helps "draw" the air out of the cockpit.

3. Converting my heater to a vent in summer months by unhooking the muff and giving direct air from the baffle to the cockpit. Works well above 5K.

I put two Van's NACA ducts on my HR2 fuselage sides and get huge amounts of air inflight, but the HR2 fuselage is coke-bottle shaped, higher pressure there. The RV-10 vents work well on the -4 fwd fuselage in line with the wing leading edge, 6" forward.

The best idea however was my buddies Cheese and Hollywood who put their Van's NACA ducts on the underside of the fiberglass rear cowl cheeks, a very high pressure area.

Stay Cool...

Smokey
HR2

Bottom line, in the summer, fly high...it's cooler and smoother...
 
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Thanks

I appreciate all the good info provided in answer to my question.

Had thought of making the aft-of-firewall portion of the cheeks into pressurized plenums for ducted air, with louvers on lower surfaces, but since this is an assembled and flying acft, did not wish to try to do internal surgery inside the cheeks. Now I think the RV-10 tilt-out air doors are going to be the answer for ease of installation and high convective flow. And could maybe array some VG's ahead of the doors if more boundary-layer flow is needed.

Will try the idea of just providing exhaust ports through the baggage bay bulkhead and letting the air follow its own course out through leaks in the empennage; can always add a reversed scoop to the belly if that's not enough.

Don't want to cut off the discussion, so if there are other ideas out there please keep 'em coming.

Thanks!
 
Vents

I orignially installed two Vetterman scoops in the canopy skirt on the right. This was totally indadequate, so I put installed two NACA scoops from Van's just behind the fuselage/cowl split line, below the cheek, just above the rudder cables. They put out a lot of air. I would like to install one on the bottom of the wing for the rear seat passenger as well, but for the front they work well.
 
I still haven't found a GREAT solution, but here's some info:

RV6
NACA ducts at knee-level - poor and warm. Add VG's ahead of them - much better, almost okay except in desert conditions.

Those little swivel-silver-dollar things (can't remember the name), also on the side of fuselage above the wing root. Nearly useless. Other people have had better luck, but these are really sensitive to placement, and they tend in this location to be just noise-makers.

Ducts from the engine plenum, through the firewall. Warmer than ambient all the time, even at cruise. Not okay in California. Also, I hated having those giant holes (fire portals) in my firewall.

I think I'll try replacing the silver-dollars with the little "swing-door" (Van's) vents. They've just GOT to grab some air, and when I'm that hot I don't care as much about a little extra drag.