DakotaHawk

Well Known Member
I built my RV-7, and this is my story.

My RV-7 was signed off by the FAA in Oct 2009, and first flight was in Dec 2009. In the past fourteen months, I have flown exactly 200 hours. Flights have included over 50 friends and family members, long cross-country flights from Washington to OshKosh, shorter cross-country flights to Utah and Oregon, and lots of $100 Hamburger flights.

One safety item that I installed in my panel is a CO Gaurdian Carbon Monoxide Detector.

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During the early months and up until about 150 hours on the Hobbs, my CO detector would begin alarming during certain flight regimes. For example, when I pulled the throttle back to about 12"MAP and entered a descent, another example is slow cruise at about 18" MAP and no maneuvering, I would hear the persistent "beep beep" of the CO monitor. My response was to open the fresh air vents and try to get some fresh air into the space behind the panel where the monitor draws it's air sample from.

Finally, I decided to really dig into the cause of the alarm and find out why I was getting it. My first thought was that someone in the plane had flatulence and may have caused a spike in gasses.:rolleyes: But my passengers kept denying it, so I had to investigate further.

After de-cowling and setting up a 500W halogen lamp on the outside of the firewall, I closed the hangar door and turned off all other lights. Crawling under the panel, lo and behold, I had enough light showing through the firewall to light up the Superbowl!:eek:

OK, maybe that's a little bit of an exaggeration! I could see slivers of light on the outside edges of the firewall. Now, to be honest, I knew that I had missed a step in the building process. When the firewall is completely ready to rivet to the fuselage, there's a step that says "run a bead of Pro-Seal along the entire joint, and then rivet the firewall to the fuselage". My firewall was cleco'd in place for several months before I finally got up the nerve to close out the easy access to the cabin. When I got to that step, I didn't go back and read the directions, so I missed the Pro-Seal. I didn't think it was that big of a deal!:(

So fast forward to the Superbowl lights. I got some Hi-Temp gasket maker and ran a bead on the cabin side of the firewall. After letting the material set, I did the halogen light test again and filled in a couple of stray light sources.

I did this work about 50 Hobbs hours ago. Since completing the sealing of the firewall, I haven't had a single CO monitor alarm! Next time I hear that alarm, I'll pay much closer attention to it. I really should have paid attention to it from the beginning. It was trying to tell me exactly what it was supposed to tell me!
 
Thanks for your post Scott! As a Paramedic this hits home far too often, especially in these winter months. I have yet to take care of anyone who thought it could happen to them and I have seen cases ranging from mild CO poisoning to severe requiring a hyperbaric chamber and/or CPR which has never ended well. Not a single severe case I have seen had a working CO detector but those who did tended to have little to no medical problems thanks to early detection!

As pilots we have a responsibility to get our passengers (and ourselves) back to the ground safely and the small expense of a CO detector is worth it's weight in gold. In addition to your aircraft, I also recommend a CO detector for your home (even if you dont have gas heat) because gas is exactly that... a gas. It will travel from your garage, a neighbors house, ect. Hands down CO detectors save lives!
 
Good catch Scott.

My experience has been that if there is a smell, there is a reason.

I also had a faint sense of fume time to time and every time I investigated it, nothing was found. Till one day I decided to really not give up till it was found. Well, after some more looking I found a very small trace of fuel dye that was seeping thru my fuel gauge screws (on the inboard of the tank). This was enough to come thru the wing root area. I end up installing on of these which detects both fume and CO2 and have had great result with it.

http://www.fireboy-xintex.com/M2A.html
 
Finally, I decided to really dig into the cause of the alarm and find out why I was getting it. My first thought was that someone in the plane had flatulence and may have caused a spike in gasses.:rolleyes: But my passengers kept denying it, so I had to investigate further.

Well... You may have asked all your passengers... but did you ever look in the mirror?:p
 
Scott,

Thank you for the courage to post your oversight about sealing the firewall and tell this story! It might save someone's life.

Where did you get your CO detector?
 
Nope. Never smelled anything. The only clue that there was a problem was the beeping CO monitor.

Just wanted to point out in case not everyone knows, but CO (carbon monoxide) is odourless so if you don't smell anything, don't assume you don't have CO leaking!

Cheers,
 
CO and Hypoxia

Great to hear the CO detector helped you. CO Guardian is a must have in my book. It interfaces with the GRT EFIS and alarms on screen when the CO levels get too high.

Their pulseoximeter http://www.guardianavionics.com/aero355.html Aero-455 unit takes it to a new "flight" level helping the pilot and passengers remain aware of hypoxia. This unit also interfaces with the GRT EFIS. At 10,000 feet the GRT EFIS alarms every 30 minutes, "CHECK BIO DATA". As you fly higher the alarm intervals get shorter.

Have fun, fly safe with CO Guardian and GRT Avionics.

P.S. CO Guardian doesn't pay me for this, I just believe in the product.

Best regards,

Carlos Fernandez
GRT Avionics
 
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Anything wrong with going cheap and using a $20 hardware store CO detector?

The alarms are pretty loud - I would think it would still be plenty audible

erich
 
Anything wrong with going cheap and using a $20 hardware store CO detector?

erich

That is what I use. Make sure you replace it every 3-4 year though. They do wear out and become ineffective. You can test them also by placing it near the exhaust of your car breifly.



All I have is one of those detectors on a card.

Make sure you know the self life of these also, I think they are only good for a few months.
 
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A buddy of mine uses one of those in an RV6A and when his battery gets low it beeps at him. He says it is plenty loud in flight!

Anything wrong with going cheap and using a $20 hardware store CO detector?

The alarms are pretty loud - I would think it would still be plenty audible

erich
 
Flight Data Systems CO Detector

Flight Data Systems will be introducing a full featured CO detector, the GD-40, in the next few weeks.

The GD-40 communicates with AFS, GRT and Garmin EFIS's or can be installed as a stand alone unit. It also has voice alerts which orate CO alerts through your headphones.

Pricing is $299 with free shipping to the USA.

We expect to be shipping the unit no later than mid March.

GD_Small.jpg


http://www.fdatasystems.com/
 
The GD-40 communicates with AFS, GRT and Garmin EFIS's or can be installed as a stand alone unit.
GD_Small.jpg


Chuck,

Will this unit work with a Dynon EFIS? I'm guessing that there is a on/off signal that could be detected by the Dynon generic input, which could then be programmed to alarm when the signal changes. I like the idea of cleaning up panel space and putting the alarm in my EFIS.
 
Several years ago I knew a pilot from a warmer state who took some flight training in preperation for a family trip to the mountains. During the training the pilot became incopacitated. The instructor was a military pilot who landed at the closest airport but did not even make it off the runway before being incopacitated. Both were both hospitalized. The fact that it was an unusualy cold morning that required cabin heat while having the instructor along most likely saved an entire family from catastrophy the next week.
 
On/Off Output

The GD-40 communicates with AFS, GRT and Garmin EFIS's or can be installed as a stand alone unit.
GD_Small.jpg


Chuck,

Will this unit work with a Dynon EFIS? I'm guessing that there is a on/off signal that could be detected by the Dynon generic input, which could then be programmed to alarm when the signal changes. I like the idea of cleaning up panel space and putting the alarm in my EFIS.

Yes,

The GD-40 also has an alarm switch output for this exact purpose.
 
The scariest thing about this post is that the OP spent the money on a CO detector, and when it did it's job, it was rationalized away or brushed off.

Aviation is ones and zeros folks. I'm beyond double digits with friends I've lost, and there's no room for stuff like this.

That said, I applaud the OP for sharing the story and owning up to it. One of the biggest sources of learning in aviation is hearing from others mistakes. If we're too proud or too ashamed to do that, we lose the sole greatest source of knowledge/experience.

So if you've got a CO detector, and it turns black or beeps, ground that plane until you figure out why!

I will be putting this device on my "must" have list because of this pilots experience, at the cost of other cushy things if need be.

Edit: Maybe the mods could start a section devoted entirely to "I learned about flying from that" stories. Yes I ripped that off, I'm not motivated enough to think of a better name.
 
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Cheap CO Detectors

Anything wrong with going cheap and using a $20 hardware store CO detector?

The alarms are pretty loud - I would think it would still be plenty audible

erich

There are two reasons not to use a household CO detector in an aircraft.

1) They are not altitude or temperature compensated. As altitude goes up, sensitivity goes down. As temperature goes down CO sensor sensitivity also goes down. This means that at low temperature and/or high altitudes dangerous levels of CO may not be detected.

2) They do not perform a periodic self test to confirm the sensor is within spec. CO sensors are life limited and must be replaced periodically (every 5 or so years).

The Flight Data Systems GD-40 is temperature and altitude compensated and performs a test of the sensor every hour to confirm the sensor is operating normally. The sensor can be replaced and the unit recalibrated once the life of the sensor is over.
 
Good catch Scott.

My experience has been that if there is a smell, there is a reason.

I also had a faint sense of fume time to time and every time I investigated it, nothing was found. Till one day I decided to really not give up till it was found. Well, after some more looking I found a very small trace of fuel dye that was seeping thru my fuel gauge screws (on the inboard of the tank). This was enough to come thru the wing root area. I end up installing on of these which detects both fume and CO2 and have had great result with it.

http://www.fireboy-xintex.com/M2A.html

I believe you meant to say it detects gasoline vapors and CO rather than CO2, buit in the pdf file I can find no mention of CO detection with that unit.
 
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Some perspective

CO can be a serious flight hazard but it is nothing like we are going to lose consciousness because there is some CO present. The normal problem that causes difficulties for pilots are damaged exhaust/heat exchanger systems. That can cause vision problems headaches and loss of consciousness.

A friend and I did some testing with both of our airplanes. They are both RV-6 tip-ups that were built before any instructions about sealing the firewall and I don't believe either of them had any firewall sealing, although I have done some since.

Using a scientific gas monitor we found that there was CO present in very detectable concentrations just about all the time in these airplanes. I believe it tended to be the worst during taxiing and low speed climbs and best in cruise flight. I think the concentration was in the range of 5 to 15 ppm most of the time with some higher and lower spikes. This CO concentration, all day long, would not produce the blood level CO that a regular smoker has all the time. The FAA standard for cabin air is 50 PPM.

Sealing the firewall sounds like a good idea to me but there are many more possible sources for CO than that. My guess is that cabin vents and open canopies would be a likely source on the ground and that belly seams and holes back in the tail would be a likely source during low speed climb. Just think of all the places the smoke goes during air shows. CO goes all those places too.

I don't really think it is necessary to worry about every seam or all CO though. If the exhaust system is intact, you have pretty much eliminated the problem. If an aircraft CO monitor can alert you to such a problem, that is great.
 
i bought mine a couple of weeks ago. Velcro to the panel and portable it registers in parts / million. usually 1 or 2 p/m in flight. taxing out behind a twin was enough to get it going though. im sure my old 57 chevy would have drivin this thing crazy. small and expensive. $140.

http://www.detectcarbonmonoxide.com/
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