J

jmartinez443

Well Known Member
I'm about ready to close my QB wings and was wondering if anyone has ever used blind rivets to fasten the outboard lower skin. Would this be considered a no-no?
 
Not A Problem!

Blind rivets are acceptable almost anywhere on the RV except for the main wing spar. I've inspected many RVs with the lower wing skins blind riveted as you suggest. Many of these have been flying for well over 10 years.
 
As Mel says, you certainly can do the outboard panel with blinds...but it really only takes a couple of three or four hour sessions with a partner to use solids - and it's quicker on the second one!
 
WOW

Mel said:
Blind rivets are acceptable almost anywhere on the RV except for the main wing spar. I've inspected many RVs with the lower wing skins blind riveted as you suggest. Many of these have been flying for well over 10 years.
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Now that is what I call a quick reply. Thanks Mel. If I may bother you with one more stupid Q: I've already dimpled one of the skins for AN426AD3 rivets, would it be acceptable to use MK-319-BS (after I ream out to 7/64" of course).

Thanks in advance.

PS Do you DAR outside of TX? If so, I'll be calling you in about a year :)
 
The MK-319 rivets will work fine in the 100 degree dimpled holes. These rivet heads are so close to the AD3 heads that you'd be hard pressed to see a difference.
Yes, I do go outside of Texas. I've done quite a few airplanes in Kansas, New Mexico, Colorado, Oklahoma and Arkansas.
 
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Mel said:
The MK-319 rivets will work fine in the 100 degree dimpled holes. These rivet heads are so close to the AD3 heads that you'd be hard pressed to see a difference.
Yes, I do go outside of Texas. I've done several airplanes in Kansas, New Mexico, Colorado, Oklahoma and Arkansas.
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Mel has been one of the best, most absolute advisors I have ever dealt with in regards to build questions and real true honest answers. Your money would be well spent having him sign off your project. And, no... this is not paid advertisement! Just the plane ;) truth!!
 
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I have never heard of using blind rivets to fasten the skin. I would use solid rivets. Some of them are difficult to buck, but it can be done. This is best accomplished with a partner.
 
Obviously money is not problem as those pop rivets cost a lot compared to solid rivets. Price for MK-319-BS at Van's is $0.22. Pneumatic pop-rivet tool might be nice as well... The builder is different from us anyway as building for RV-8A. ;)
 
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Pirkka said:
Obviously money is not problem as those pop rivets cost a lot compared to solid rivets. Price for MK-319-BS at Van's is $0.22. Pneumatic pop-rivet tool might be nice as well... The builder is different from us anyway as building for RV-8A. ;)
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Time vs Money the eternal paradox. I'm always inclined to follow the path of least resistance. That's why I bought a QB, that's why I'm building an A (no TW time or desire to get transition), blind rivets where I can to save time and labor, and yes, I do own a pneumatic rivet puller :)

Even if I needed 500 of them (which I won't), it would only cost about $100. This is a $70k plane (conservatively). Peanuts compared to the PITA it's gonna be to buck all of those solid rivets. Besides, it's the bottom of the wing - who'll ever know ... oh, I guess you guys will. The shame :)
 
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Mel...

Mel,
is there not a strength issue with pop rivets over solids? Would Van approve? Somehow it seems that if/when you pull 6 G's the underside would be in a stretch mode with shear forces on the rivets, no?

Curious,
 
jmartinez443 said:
Time vs Money the eternal paradox. I'm always inclined to follow the path of least resistance. That's why I bought a QB, that's why I'm building an A (no TW time or desire to get transition), blind rivets where I can to save time and labor, and yes, I do own a pneumatic rivet puller :)

Even if I needed 500 of them (which I won't), it would only cost about $100. This is a $70k plane (conservatively). Peanuts compared to the PITA it's gonna be to buck all of those solid rivets. Besides, it's the bottom of the wing - who'll ever know ... oh, I guess you guys will. The shame :)
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Save some money now, lose some later.

I wouldn't buy an RV that is put together with pop rivets. It would make me wonder where else the builder deviated from the plans. Now if the plane was supposed to be put together with blind rivets, that is something different.
 
N941WR said:
Save some money now, lose some later.

I wouldn't buy an RV that is put together with pop rivets. It would make me wonder where else the builder deviated from the plans. Now if the plane was supposed to be put together with blind rivets, that is something different.
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I though I had made the purpose of my post very clear: would it be acceptable to use blind rivets to close lower outboard panel of the wings. If the response had been "your wing is gonna fall off if you do that" then I wouldn't do it. That does not mean I'm taking short cuts all over the plane - after all my butt is gonna be in it when it first flies.

Bill, I promise not to call you when/if I put my plane up for sale :)
 
pierre smith said:
Mel,
is there not a strength issue with pop rivets over solids? Would Van approve? Somehow it seems that if/when you pull 6 G's the underside would be in a stretch mode with shear forces on the rivets, no?

Curious,
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Yes, Van approves this.
 
Give it a go!

jmartinez443 said:
I'm about ready to close my QB wings and was wondering if anyone has ever used blind rivets to fasten the outboard lower skin. Would this be considered a no-no?
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Jorge,

I am sure you can put in blind rivets. I guess the real question is why you would? Putting the solid rivets in is not too difficult and would only take you and a helper a couple of hours or so. You will probably need someone who has some experience riveting to help you and if you can't find someone, perhaps this is the best way...

Ask about in your local chapter and I am sure you will find someone. Honestly the riveting is one of the easiest parts of the project. The key is to have an experienced riveting partner for jobs like this.

I am sure Van would not like to hear me say this but I often wonder about the "QuickBuild" notion. It actually only took me and a mate a couple of hours per wing to skin the top side. The work is in drill, dimple, debur, straighten and prime. Riveting is the most satisfying part by far!

I am in Australia, but if I was closer I would definately offer to come round and help you do it. You will feel good about it and you will set yourself up with some excellent skills/confidence for later on in the construction where there are some difficult rivets to hit.

I think some of the remarks in this thread are unhelpful... I just want to encourage you to give it a go because it will give you confidence and set you up to enjoy later stages of the building. Let's face it .24c is nothing on a $100k aircraft, neither is 2 hours vs 20 mins on 1600 hours. Anyone that rubbishes you over Quickbuild/slowbuild, tailwheel/no tailwheel or otherwise quite simply does not understand this hobby. Every builder who constructs an aircraft and flys it has achieved an incredible feat of learning and persistance.

Good luck, whatever you decide.

Richard
RV7A
Finishing
 
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pierre smith said:
Mel,
is there not a strength issue with pop rivets over solids? Would Van approve? Somehow it seems that if/when you pull 6 G's the underside would be in a stretch mode with shear forces on the rivets, no?

Curious,
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As Mel has stated, using the proper pulled rivets is fine with Vans nearly anywhere on the airframe. Years ago I recall a post about Van hisself personally approving of the entire RV-4 wing bottom skin being attached with pulled rivets.

The main reason Van called out driven rivets on his aircraft is, yep, true to the man's philosophy, cost and weight. That is why many of us have gotten a chuckle out of imagining Van wrestling with using those heavy and expen$$ive pulled fasteners on the -12. :)
 
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Richard,

I appreciate your post and I actually agree with you: I have (solid) riveted my entire empenage (Ok, I did wuss out and pulled the 5 or 6 in the bottom of the middle nose ribs - per options in the plans even:)) and it turned out great even if I say so myself, so it really is not a skills issue.

However, I'm a firm believer in that there is no glory in pain. If I can find alternative ways of accomplishing a task without compromising quality or safety I will use them. If I can pull a bunch of blind rivets single-handedly, I find it hard to justify struggling to buck all of those rivets through inspection holes. Yes, as you state, there is a measure of satisfaction in the struggle/accomplishment. Question is does it outweight the PITA? I'm not sure. Now, if it became a safety/quality issue, I'd be the first to grab the bucking bar.

Again, thanks for your reply, your offer to help (I'd take you up on it just to hang out, you sound like a cool guy), and your encouragement.
 
Closing out the bottom skin with solid rivets is not a big deal... my son & I closed out both wings in about 4 hrs. Pop rivets never fit truly flush.... and frankly look like c**p compared to solids.
 
jmartinez443 said:
I though I had made the purpose of my post very clear: would it be acceptable to use blind rivets to close lower outboard panel of the wings. If the response had been "your wing is gonna fall off if you do that" then I wouldn't do it. That does not mean I'm taking short cuts all over the plane - after all my butt is gonna be in it when it first flies.

Bill, I promise not to call you when/if I put my plane up for sale :)
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I didn't say you were taking short cuts in the construction, just that a future buyer might think that way. Just another thing to consider.

BTW, I used the same logic when I elected to go with circuit breakers over ATO fuses, not that I think there is anything wrong with using auto fuses.
 
rv9av8tr said:
Pop rivets never fit truly flush.... and frankly look like c**p compared to solids.
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Mike,
I have to respectively disagree. My airplane has quite a few pulled rivets, and when done properly, they look just fine.
This opinion is backed up by the many plaques on my wall, two of which are from Sun-N-Fun.
 
My inspector advised me to use pop rivets

After the tail was inspected, the inspector suggested because I had the quick build and did not have a lot of experience that the pop rivets would be the better way to go on the underside of the wing. I compromised, solid in all the places that I could do myself and pops in the very difficult to reach locations. Which is worse, a badly diven solid or a well pulled pop? I'll take the well pulled pop. Pop rivets are your friend and there will be lots of places where 5 seconds with the correct pop can save hours of dismanteling parts to get at a spot for using tools with a solid.
 
Its a Pride Thing

Each of us sets personal standards for ourselves. I LIKE it when people ask "How did you manage to get in there and shoot those rivets?" Now I know other builders may well feel differently.....especially if they choose an easier alternative to the solid fastener. Either way, the airplane will fly just fine.

Anything is possible. Solid rivets, pulled rivets, etc. Here is an extreme example. Remember the Capelis XC-12 featured in 1942's "The Flying Tigers?" Many of its skins were attached with PK screws. ANYBODY can turn a screw but then, the one-of-a-kind airplane was barely airworthy and in the end, generated far more curiosity than flight hours.:D

 
Now for something completely different...

This has been a very informative thread and now I won't feel too bad if I use a few MK-319's in a few spots.

But just to mention something way off base...I saw a segment on Modern Marvels discussing adhesives. 3M makes this amazing tape called VHB tape for use in structural applications. It has approved aerospace uses and it is used to attach windows in some of the newest skyscrapers. The MM segment showed a demo where the VHB tape was stronger then rivets!
 
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